Canadians Moving to the US

[bluealberta]

I'm not debunking anything...I just asked some questions and got a lot of flak...

You seem to believe that your system serves you well, and that's fine...

What I believe is that the Canadian system of healthcare was once great, but has been left to languish, possibly on purpose...

Those that are pushing to privatize healthcare have totally disregarded the Romanow Report...this smacks of arrogance and callumny...

Much will need to be done to revive the healthcare system in Canada, but in my opinion, privatization will have far-reaching adverse effects, as one of our country's cherished institutions falls prey to, and must rely on service delivery by multi-national healthcare corporations...

Yet, neither will throwing money at the problem make it go away...

Vanni, you have just made the point I have been trying to make. There are flaws in our system just as there are flaws in the US system, as noted by Mr. Not, who is involved in his system. My question is very simple:

If you agree with me that simply throwing money at the problem will not make it go away, yet don't agree with me that a mix of public and private may be the answer, then what is? As I have stated before, there are many instances in the Canadian system of private health care (eye doctors, dentists, radiology clincs, phsyiotherapists, medical doctors owning and operating their own clinics, to name a few), so why does a hospital and the services it provides have to be totally under the public system? If as you and the Rev say that only the rich will be able to get health care, would not this same philosphy apply to the current private components of our health system as noted above? Not only the rich in this country get eye exams, dental care, etc. This is the frustration I have, is that we all agree there are problems, but we cannot even talk about other options. If the system we have is broken, we owe it to ourselves to fully, calmly, and rationally explore all options. It appears from the comments of NOT, the US is asking some of the same questions, so maybe it would benefit both countries for us to put aside the current animosity and maybe come up with a North American Health Care system. After all, whether we like it or not, our economies, culture, and trade are all intertwined.

 

[bluealberta]

I have to agree with you that full privatization is not the way to go either (40 million uninsured Americans can attest to that).
I've always believed in a combination of the two.
Tell you what Vanni, I think in a couple of days I will be finished reading the Romanow report (thanks for providing me with 400 pages of material). Part of the reason I want to read it, is not so much to understand what needs to be fixed in Canada, but moreso to see if any of the information can provide fixes for us here.
When I'm done reading it, I'll start a new thread on Health care in the US, provide my opinions and facts and I'll comment on the Romanow report also. And from what I have been understanding, there is no Canadian health care per say, its more along the lines of health care systems in each province with minor differences, or am I incorrect in assuming so?

Thanks, NOT, and I will be looking forward to your new thread as this subject is of intense interest to me. I to agree that a mix of public and private is the answer, and it appears that if somehow you in the States and us in Canada could meet in the middle, we might have something. I just posted another post which said maybe the two countries should get together to discuss a North
American Health Care System. Thoughts?

 

[I think not]

I have to agree with you that full privatization is not the way to go either (40 million uninsured Americans can attest to that).
I've always believed in a combination of the two.
Tell you what Vanni, I think in a couple of days I will be finished reading the Romanow report (thanks for providing me with 400 pages of material). Part of the reason I want to read it, is not so much to understand what needs to be fixed in Canada, but moreso to see if any of the information can provide fixes for us here.
When I'm done reading it, I'll start a new thread on Health care in the US, provide my opinions and facts and I'll comment on the Romanow report also. And from what I have been understanding, there is no Canadian health care per say, its more along the lines of health care systems in each province with minor differences, or am I incorrect in assuming so?

Thanks, NOT, and I will be looking forward to your new thread as this subject is of intense interest to me. I to agree that a mix of public and private is the answer, and it appears that if somehow you in the States and us in Canada could meet in the middle, we might have something. I just posted another post which said maybe the two countries should get together to discuss a North
American Health Care System. Thoughts?

Man you like living on the edge to suggest such a thing, don't you? :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

Hey, a Conservative proposing that Canada integrate our health care system with the US. There's no hidden agenda though.

If you like the US so much Blue, why not move there?

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

If you like the US so much Blue, why not move there?

I can't believe you wrote that, I'm getting flash back to the late 80's when I was in elementary school.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

If you like the US so much Blue, why not move there?

I can't believe you wrote that, I'm getting flash back to the late 80's when I was in elementary school.

Why did that give you a flashback DasFX if I may ask?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

Hey, a Conservative proposing that Canada integrate our health care system with the US. There's no hidden agenda though.

If you like the US so much Blue, why not move there?

Actually, being out in the open like this, where is it hiding. We owe it to ourselves to explore all options. This is just one. Why be afraid of looking at all options? Yes, I like the US, and yes, I like Alberta. Canada, now there might be another story. By the way, I hear Smilin Jack wants Alberta to close down all it's private hospitals. Maybe he could come out and find 'em, because none of us in Alberta know where they are. Must be another part of that hidden agenda crap, or maybe it's just another misrepresentation by those who have no ideas of their own. Rev, whether you like it or not, the fact is our two countries are intertwined in virtually everything we do, and to ignore it is taking the ostrich approach. :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

We owe it to ourselves to explore all options. This is just one.

It's not an option. If you are that far away from the reality of Canadian public opinion, I'd suggest that you are the ostrich.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

It's not an option. If you are that far away from the reality of Canadian public opinion, I'd suggest that you are the ostrich.

Maybe this head-in-the-sand approach that conservatives must take to stomach their party's policy is a direct result of the firewalls that are already in place...

"Withdraw from the Canada Pension Plan... Collect our own revenue from personal income tax... Resume provincial responsibility for health-care policy. If Ottawa objects to provincial policy, fight in the courts... [E]ach province should raise its own revenue for health... It is imperative to take the initiative, to build firewalls around Alberta... "

- Stepehen Harper in an "Open letter to Ralph Klein," January 24th 2001.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

So many Harper quotes...so little time.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

So many Harper quotes...so little time.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose wage and price controls.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose a seven-cent per litre gas tax.
(Imposed twenty one cent instead)

Jean Chretien: We will abolish the GST

Jean Chretien: We will rescind Nafta

Paul Martin: Stephen Harper cannot fund his program outlined in this election campaign.

Paul Martin: Responsible people will pay for this scandal.

Pierre Trudeau: Why should I sell your wheat.

All Liberals: There is hidden agenda.

Scott Brison: I am a conservative.

So many liberals, so many lies.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

So many Harper quotes...so little time.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose wage and price controls.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose a seven-cent per litre gas tax.
(Imposed twenty one cent instead)

Jean Chretien: We will abolish the GST

Jean Chretien: We will rescind Nafta

Paul Martin: Stephen Harper cannot fund his program outlined in this election campaign.

Paul Martin: Responsible people will pay for this scandal.

Pierre Trudeau: Why should I sell your wheat.

All Liberals: There is hidden agenda.

Scott Brison: I am a conservative.

So many liberals, so many lies.

Yeah...glad I didnt' vote for any of those f**ks... 8)

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

So many Harper quotes...so little time.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose wage and price controls.

Pierre Trudeau: We will not impose a seven-cent per litre gas tax.
(Imposed twenty one cent instead)

Jean Chretien: We will abolish the GST

Jean Chretien: We will rescind Nafta

Paul Martin: Stephen Harper cannot fund his program outlined in this election campaign.

Paul Martin: Responsible people will pay for this scandal.

Pierre Trudeau: Why should I sell your wheat.

All Liberals: There is hidden agenda.

Scott Brison: I am a conservative.

So many liberals, so many lies.

Yeah...glad I didnt' vote for any of those f**ks... 8)

Well at least we agree on that!

 

[no1important]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

Paul Martin: Stephen Harper cannot fund his program outlined in this election campaign.

Whats wrong with that?

Paul Martin: Responsible people will pay for this scandal.

A little premature to say that when the report is not even out yet.

You Quoted the Rev's "So many Harper quotes...so little time." but you only mention two items about Martin. Which really mean nothing. The rest is yesterdays leaders not todays.

But do not forget who brought in GST and NAFTA in the first place.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

I've never voted for a Liberal either, Vanni. Funny how some people have trouble understanding that I won't for Liberals or Conservatives because I don't support corporate greed hogs with a propensity for being corrupt.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

Paul Martin: Stephen Harper cannot fund his program outlined in this election campaign.

Whats wrong with that?

Because Martin adopted some of the platform of the Conservatives, and remarkably, has "found" $4.6 Billion for Smilin Jack.

Paul Martin: Responsible people will pay for this scandal.

A little premature to say that when the report is not even out yet.

You Quoted the Rev's "So many Harper quotes...so little time." but you only mention two items about Martin. Which really mean nothing. The rest is yesterdays leaders not todays.

Martin's story is still being written. The reason I bring up past is because The Rev always slams Mulroney, but as you mention, he was yesterdays leader as well.

But do not forget who brought in GST and NAFTA in the first place.

I support NAFTA, and have no problem with an open GST which replaced a variable and hidden Manufacturers Sales Tax. The proof that it is not a bad tax is that the rate has not changed in the 15 years it has been in effect. The MST changed virtually every budget.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

Mulroney is still a strong influence in the Conservative Party. They credit him with uniting the right, bring him to their policy convention, and trot him out during elections. Harper gushes over Mulroney like a schoolboy with a crush. Harper was a policy wonk in the Mulroney government.

That makes it absolutely laughable when Harper gets all indignant and uppity about Liberal corruption. He was a back room boy in the most corrupt government in Canadian history and still drags the guy who boss during all of that corruption out to stump for him and give him policy advice.

Trudeau is dead and nobody with even a modicum of sanity thinks that Chretien has any influence over Martin's policies.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

Mulroney is still a strong influence in the Conservative Party. They credit him with uniting the right, bring him to their policy convention, and trot him out during elections. Harper gushes over Mulroney like a schoolboy with a crush. Harper was a policy wonk in the Mulroney government.

That makes it absolutely laughable when Harper gets all indignant and uppity about Liberal corruption. He was a back room boy in the most corrupt government in Canadian history and still drags the guy who boss during all of that corruption out to stump for him and give him policy advice.

Trudeau is dead and nobody with even a modicum of sanity thinks that Chretien has any influence over Martin's policies.

Then why did Martin give a "rousing, pump your fist in the air" standing ovation after Jean's disgraceful golf ball testimony. Maybe Jean has no direct influence, but his followers certainly do, and can't wait to get Paully boy out of the way again. And Trudeau still casts a big shadow over the Liberals, they worship at his feet still to this day.

And I still don't accept your premise about Conservative corruption. No one is more corrupt than the Liberals have proven to be in the last 12 years.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Canadians Moving to t

Mulroney is still a strong influence in the Conservative Party. They credit him with uniting the right, bring him to their policy convention, and trot him out during elections. Harper gushes over Mulroney like a schoolboy with a crush. Harper was a policy wonk in the Mulroney government.

That makes it absolutely laughable when Harper gets all indignant and uppity about Liberal corruption. He was a back room boy in the most corrupt government in Canadian history and still drags the guy who boss during all of that corruption out to stump for him and give him policy advice.

Trudeau is dead and nobody with even a modicum of sanity thinks that Chretien has any influence over Martin's policies.

Then why did Martin give a "rousing, pump your fist in the air" standing ovation after Jean's disgraceful golf ball testimony. Maybe Jean has no direct influence, but his followers certainly do, and can't wait to get Paully boy out of the way again. And Trudeau still casts a big shadow over the Liberals, they worship at his feet still to this day.

And I still don't accept your premise about Conservative corruption. No one is more corrupt than the Liberals have proven to be in the last 12 years.

How do you expect a Goverment that still allows Corporation to finance Parties to not turn corrupt? Its the system that is broken.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Canadians Moving to t

Trudeau was one of our most popular leaders, Blue. Whether you like him or agree with him is irrelevant, the fact is that he changed this country in a way that most Canadians feel was for the better. He is dead though, and he does not influence Liberal policy anymore. It isn't like he haunts 24 Sussex or something.

The battle between Martin and Chretien was huge and long-running. Martin won a lot of battles during Chretien's reign. He is likely the reason why Chretien was unable to get rid of the GST and NAFTA for example...two things I believe you said you support.

Neither Chretien nor his followers share that sort of influence in Martin's government. Martin's cabinet is full of Martinites. Friends of Chretien's were quickly marginalized when Martin took over.

Chretien's golf ball testimony wasn't disgraceful either...at least no more so than the pronouncements that Gomery made about golf balls being "small town cheap". Chretien was responding to a cheap shot by somebody who should have known better.

I really don't understand the Conservative's hatred of Martin. I don't like him because he is basically a conservative..a soulless bean-counter who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

The argument that he is crooked is not only unproven, but should have no real bearing on the opinions of people who supported Mulroney and Devine and Harris and their ilk.

So what's the real problem? Men marrying men?

Is it even simpler than that...the fact that he doesn't come from Alberta.

I follow politics more closely than most people and I honestly don't understand the Conservative's vehement dislike for Martin.