You realize that you're really lucky you got the damn sammich right? Do you really need a pickle jar aimed at your head? Lol.
burkas and the "cultural common good"
- Thread starter Locutus
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You realize that you're really lucky you got the damn sammich right? Do you really need a pickle jar aimed at your head? Lol.
I will be covered when i travel to India,as much as possible without looking ridiculous.I have many reasons for this choice.
when it's a choice I'll examine it but for me it's never been and never will be a choiceYou need to ask yourself, just how badly do I really want a pickle.
I get you're passionate about it, and I'm not trying to undermine or dissuade that at all. And it's more than just an intellectual exercise for me as well. And I've known Muslim women who've come down on both sides of the debate themselves. But I still keep coming back to "what right do I have to say what she can and cannot choose". Likewise I have no right to tell anyone when they're actually making a choice or not. I get where you're coming from, believe me I do, but there is a line where I feel it becomes invasive. On principal.
most women shed it upon arrival, not all are allowed that choice, but once they've been here for a bit they're on board as are many of the men but it takes a while and the hate fest they have to wade through doesn't help
I wish those who were screaming about anti-muslim this and that would take that energy and find a friend
one burqa at a time... ;-)
want to expound on that?
And I don't necessarily know that I believe it's a choice myself because it's not one that I would ever make. But then I question myself because there are many choices I would never make, yet people make them all the time. It's not something there's an easy answer for which is why I try to step outside of where my passion lies on the subject and look at it more coldly, more intellectually. It was like watching an interview with some of those women from Bounty. Articulate, seemingly intelligent, stating quite emphatically they chose their life and lifestyle.
I don't know, I guess i came to the realization (for me anyway) that it's maybe not about whether I believe it's their choice or not, it's about accepting what they're telling me. Because what else can I do? Exert the same level of control over them that I believe the men of Bounty (or the leader, what's his name) exert to tell them they're not making a choice? And thus my conundrum.
What about businesses that have a dress code? I have always had a problem with places that insist men must wear a white shirt and tie to work.
At least she knows who is supposed to provide lunch.
Making an accommodation, like wearing a uniform for work for example, is not the same thing as being told what to wear all the time. Or being told what you can't wear ever. And if someone feels that strongly about a work dress code, they can always look for another line of work, no one is forcing them to work there.
To me it's no different than my position on the death penalty. Irrespective of how accurate convictions are, regardless of whether someone deserves to live or die, the absolute bottom line for me is simply that I cannot in good conscience do to someone what I'm telling them they're wrong to do.
But it gnaws at me. It's a difficult thing to be dispassionate about. Especially when I read about the prevalence of acid attacks or that girl who was shot for trying to go to school and these are the same cultures where we see the burka. It can be a really difficult issue to reconcile the heart and mind over.
I'm not suggesting it's the only place in the world that ever happens. Geez, it happened to a woman in Montreal just a couple of years ago.
But I was referring to things like this:
Acid attacks, poison: What Afghan girls risk by going to school - CNN.com
The implication was that acid attacks are a "muslim" thing, and it's not. Being Muslim has nothing to do with it. Being a brainless twat has far more to do with it than being Muslim. Personally, from the Muslims that I know personally, I'd be more concerned with what persons like angstrom and boomer might do than any of the Muslims that I know.
Um, no. That wasn't the implication, that was your inference. I never said acid attacks were a "muslim" thing, never even thought it actually. Burkas, which is the topic at hand, puts me in mind of the Taliban/Afghanistan, which brings to mind stories like the ones in the article that I posted, the latter being the reason I made mention of it at all. I recently read an article about a calendar featuring women from India who were victims of acid attacks, an article that made me aware of the prevalence of such attacks in that area of the world. This does not mean I'm implying acid attacks are a "Hindu" or "Sikh" thing either.
So I'm very aware that acid attacks are not exclusive to the Muslim world, but that doesn't change the fact that there are enclaves within the Muslim world (such as the Taliban in Afghanistan) that are horribly oppressive, to women and young girls in particular. The Burka, in those enclaves, being one tool of that oppression. All of which makes it difficult for me to still say we shouldn't ban the burka, but ultimately I have to say we shouldn't for the reasons I've already stated.
Hey, there is way to much high quality meaningful conversation going on in this thread. I'm going to have to break this thing up
No. You don't have to do any such thing.
Let me go get CDNbear , and we can get a good old sh!t storm started just like in the good old days
I'm heading off, if there's any sh!t in the morning, I'll have my own storm.
An acid attack is one select example of a possible set of actions.
The question here relates to the frequency of the entire set of actions (physical harm, etc) can be attributed to a recognizable demographic as it relates to the oppression of women (as we define it in the West)
I believe you will find that the numbers are skewed towards one identifiable group
This happens every day with respect to the laws of the land... This woman's 'need' to wear a niquab during a swearing-in ceremony is just one example
As per above, this has to do only with the immigration ceremony... That's it.
What makes me shake my head is that as the law/practice is clear, if this nutbar doesn't believe that having Canadian citizenship is worth removing this headgear (in a private room with just a women no less) then exactly why does Canada want her at all?
Referring back to a point that was made multiple times in this thread, there is no religious regulation that requires her to wear this in public, so it is no different than her personal 'preference'.... And this takes us right back to what one poster made about a Klan member wanting to take their citizenship oath wearing their white hood.