British forces will be the last to leave Afghanistan

[EagleSmack]

Gilbert, a soldier is part of a larger national society. His death impacts on the country as a whole. As such, clearly the loss of so many soldiers is also a loss of so many citizens, regardless of how many soldiers are there.

I don't buy into the notion however that a nation suffers more than another because some folks feel to crunch numbers and figure out a countries population, to the size of their military, to the amount of troops deployed, to the amount of troops killed.

 

[Machjo]

I don't buy into the notion however that a nation suffers more than another because some folks feel to crunch numbers and figure out a countries population, to the size of their military, to the amount of troops deployed, to the amount of troops killed.

Then let's put it this way:

Let's say the US lost 1,000 troops in a war, and Croatia, another NATO country, also lost 1,000 troops in the same war, seeing that Croatia has a national population of not even five million, certainly you'd agree that the loss of 1,000 troops would be more greatly felt by Croatia than the US, no?

This is not to undermine US troop casualties by the way, and normally I wouldn't make such comparisons as one life is one life no matter what. The reason I bring this up is strictly to give some perspective to accusations that sometimes come from the US that other countries are not carrying their weight. Clearly you can't expect more from a smaller country than you can from a larger one obviously.

 

[L Gilbert]

Gilbert, a soldier is part of a larger national society. His death impacts on the country as a whole. As such, clearly the loss of so many soldiers is also a loss of so many citizens, regardless of how many soldiers are there.

Then include the number of citizens lost, too. There aren't just military personel that travelled to Afghanistan, you know.

I don't buy into the notion however that a nation suffers more than another because some folks feel to crunch numbers and figure out a countries population, to the size of their military, to the amount of troops deployed, to the amount of troops killed.

Yep. Take a country like China and how its population suffers when a Chinese person dies (pop. of about 1.3 billion) and compare it to a country like Palau losing a member (pop. of about 20,000).

 

[Machjo]

Then include the number of citizens lost, too. There aren't just military personel that travelled to Afghanistan, you know.

Yep. Take a country like China and how its population suffers when a Chinese person dies (pop. of about 1.3 billion) and compare it to a country like Palau losing a member (pop. of about 20,000).

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

 

[EagleSmack]

Then let's put it this way:

Let's say the US lost 1,000 troops in a war, and Croatia, another NATO country, also lost 1,000 troops in the same war, seeing that Croatia has a national population of not even five million, certainly you'd agree that the loss of 1,000 troops would be more greatly felt by Croatia than the US, no?

Isn't that sort of hypothetical?

This is not to undermine US troop casualties by the way, and normally I wouldn't make such comparisons as one life is one life no matter what. The reason I bring this up is strictly to give some perspective to accusations that sometimes come from the US that other countries are not carrying their weight. Clearly you can't expect more from a smaller country than you can from a larger one obviously.

You see why this bugs me? The OP is saying the brits are doing more than, I have heard some Canadians say they are doing more (not all) than the US and UK. I cannot recall saying that the US is doing more than either of those two. Yet the Yanks get labeled in here of saying you folks are doing less. Look at the OP...anything to say to him or is that just reserved for us Yanks.? If you can find a post with me saying...

"The US is doing way more than Canada and the UK"

... then I was out of line in doing so. I surely don't remember.

Whenever I hear the "we're doing more than the Yanks" I just look at the numbers. One thousand dead isn't from sitting in a Recreation Room being bored to death.

I DID say that I believe Germany should be doing more because they are capable of doing more and have a far bigger army, and highly trained, great equipment, etc. Plus, I have added that Brits, Canadians, and us Yanks were willing to die by the tens of thousands for them during the Cold War. Bringing them into the fight in the south and Pakistan would add such a punch IMO.

 

[Machjo]

Isn't that sort of hypothetical?



You see why this bugs me? The OP is saying the brits are doing more than, I have heard some Canadians say they are doing more (not all) than the US and UK. I cannot recall saying that the US is doing more than either of those two. Yet the Yanks get labeled in here of saying you folks are doing less. Look at the OP...anything to say to him or is that just reserved for us Yanks.? If you can find a post with me saying...

"The US is doing way more than Canada and the UK"

... then I was out of line in doing so. I surely don't remember.

Whenever I hear the "we're doing more than the Yanks" I just look at the numbers. One thousand dead isn't from sitting in a Recreation Room being bored to death.

I DID say that I believe Germany should be doing more because they are capable of doing more and have a far bigger army, and highly trained, great equipment, etc. Plus, I have added that Brits, Canadians, and us Yanks were willing to die by the tens of thousands for them during the Cold War. Bringing them into the fight in the south and Pakistan would add such a punch IMO.

First off, I wasn't referring to you personally and I do apologize if it had come out that way. I had Fox News in mind:

YouTube - Fox News Downplays its Apology to Canada Military

I realize even some Americans probably think Fox News' comments were crass, and you probably do too. But just to clarify I wasn't pointing at you.

We should point out too that some non-NATO countries are there too. For instance, Sweden's there under ISAF:

YouTube - Swedish Peacekeeping forces - Afghanistan
YouTube - Tribute to swedish UN soldiers

Sweden has lost some ISAF members too. Just goes to show we don't need another layer of bureaucracy in NATO to contribute to Afghanistan. Sweden is not a NATO member after all, yet I bet some Canadians themselves are not aware of this, let alone Fox News.

 

[Johnnny]

in the example of crotia, if they suffered 1000 deaths compared to 1000 deaths america would take, crotia would suffer more weariness than the states

 

[Machjo]

in the example of crotia, if they suffered 1000 deaths compared to 1000 deaths america would take, crotia would suffer more weariness than the states

Of course. Percentage-wise it would take a larger chunk of its military and population.

 

[Johnnny]

It would, and i say this not trying to de valuate the lives of soliders... Its just that a country that small is tight knit and people would react the way humans do in situations like that....

i respect anyone who would fight for their country

 

[Cliffy]

It would, and i say this not trying to de valuate the lives of soliders... Its just that a country that small is tight knit and people would react the way humans do in situations like that....

i respect anyone who would fight for their country

Who in Afghanistan, besides the insurgents, are fighting for their country?

 

[Johnnny]

i was talking about in general so it would seem im not trying to make anyones soliders better than the others.....

 

[EagleSmack]

in the example of crotia, if they suffered 1000 deaths compared to 1000 deaths america would take, crotia would suffer more weariness than the states

1,000 deaths across the country is a drop in the bucket except for the family and loved ones of those lost. How many people in the US died from drunk driving since 2001...far more than 1000.

How many people died from drunk driving in Canada since 2001...far more than 147.

Where's the outrage?

If Croatians lost 1000 or their own and Americans lost 1000 of their own in the same incident neither nation would suffer more weariness than the other and the families of the lost would suffer equally.

Think about it...

"Your population is bigger so you suffer less than us."

 

[Johnnny]

eagle man im just saying as a whole, people would act differently theres more connections in a smaller community, and as such human behaviour would be different in that situation...

of course families would be hurt in all cases, but as a community at large there is a difference between the larger places and smaller places.

I was hit by a drunk driver last year, its a problem in my city. I think if you dont count reserves my city is the durnk driving capital

 

[Machjo]

Looking at it from an economic standpoint too, the US has a far larger tax base to support the training of 1,00 new soldiers to replace the KIA than Croatia would. Looking at it from the standpoint of military finance, either Croatia would take longer to replace those troops or would have to raise taxes higher than the US to replace them at the same speed as the US. In short, owing to its population, the US has a larger tax base than Croatia to swallow those costs, thus putting a greater pressure on Croatia's resources overall.

 

[EagleSmack]

Looking at it from an economic standpoint too, the US has a far larger tax base to support the training of 1,00 new soldiers to replace the KIA than Croatia would. Looking at it from the standpoint of military finance, either Croatia would take longer to replace those troops or would have to raise taxes higher than the US to replace them at the same speed as the US. In short, owing to its population, the US has a larger tax base than Croatia to swallow those costs, thus putting a greater pressure on Croatia's resources overall.

I think it is like comparing apples to oranges. That is why I said it was hypothetical. Under any circumstances it is hard for a country like Croatia to produce military personnel faster than developed countries. Whether from death or discharge. Then again Croatia produced a lot of soldiers when they had too during the war in Croatia.

The loss of 147 Canadians since 2001, outside of the hearthache it causes their family and the nation was not difficult to replace. The effectiveness of the Canadian Forces was not loss because of these deaths. The same with 300+ UK troops, or 1,000 Americans in that theater. I bet Canadians lost twice that much the moment the ramps dropped on Juno Beach in Normandy.

 

[AnnaG]

Actually yesterday I heard the loss was 150.

 

[petros]

Sesqui... How can you use that word as a celebration of death?