Bring back Bill Vanderzalm

[SirJosephPorter]

Recall and Initiative

Elections BC Accepts Initiative Petition from Former Premier Vander Zalm to Undo the HST and bring back the PST

7 February 2010 | Recall and Initiative

The Chief Electoral Officer of Elections BC has accepted an initiative petition from former BC Premier Bill Vander Zalm. Pursuant to the Recall and Initiative Act (British Columbia), the initiative process gives registered voters the opportunity to have a legislative proposal introduced into the BC legislature. In connection with his initiative petition, Mr. Vander Zalm has drafted a bill that would reverse the implementation of the HST and bring back the PST in British Columbia.

The first step of the initiative process is the petition. Starting on 6 April 2010, Vander Zalm will have 90 days in order to collect the signatures of at least 10% of the registered voters in each of the 85 electoral districts in British Columbia. If Vander Zalm succeeds in collecting the required signatures, a committee of the legislature can either recommend the bill for introduction by the legislature, or refer the bill to the CEO for an initiative vote. As the BC Liberals hold a majority of the committee seats, if the petition is successful it will very likely proceed to an initiative vote.

If the initiative bill proceeds to an initiative vote, the bill must pass two difficult thresholds: first, the majority of registered voters in the province must vote in favour of the initiative. Second, more than 50% of registered voters in at least two-thirds of the electoral districts in the province must vote in favour of the initiative. The initiative vote would be held on 24 September 2011.

If the initiative vote succeeds, the BC government must introduce the initiative bill in the legislature at the earliest practicable opportunity. However, the BC government is under no legal obligation to pass the initiative bill.

Recall and Initiative

The whole thing seems to be smoke and mirrors, Kreskin, don’t put too much hope in it. First, is the requirement that more than 50% of registered voters must vote in favor of the bill? The requirement is not a simple majority? Then the initiative is sunk right there.

So let us say that 75% of the registered voters actually vote in the referendum. Does the yes side have to get 50% of registered voters, meaning 2/3rd of the votes of those who actually voted? That sounds a very steep hurdle to cross. Are you sure it is not just a simple majority (more than 50% of those who vote) that is required?

Second, the bill has only to be introduced in the legislature; there is no requirement to pass it. That means it is a non binding referendum. I personally don’t see it as coming to anything. I am sure you remember how Mulroney passed the GST in the face of almost unanimous opposition.

 

[Kreskin]

The whole thing seems to be smoke and mirrors, Kreskin, don’t put too much hope in it. First, is the requirement that more than 50% of registered voters must vote in favor of the bill? The requirement is not a simple majority? Then the initiative is sunk right there.

So let us say that 75% of the registered voters actually vote in the referendum. Does the yes side have to get 50% of registered voters, meaning 2/3rd of the votes of those who actually voted? That sounds a very steep hurdle to cross. Are you sure it is not just a simple majority (more than 50% of those who vote) that is required?

Second, the bill has only to be introduced in the legislature; there is no requirement to pass it. That means it is a non binding referendum. I personally don’t see it as coming to anything.

Yes, I just told you all that. I'm well aware of what the odds are. But they aren't nothing, and BCers aren't afraid to make wholesale changes.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes, I just told you all that. I'm well aware of what the odds are. But they aren't nothing, and BCers aren't afraid to make wholesale changes.

OK, so how many people do you think will realistically vote in a referendum? You can be sure that government will hold it on a very inconvenient day, so that people will have to make an effort to vote.

Now, if say 60% of people voted, that would be considered a very good turnout, by general election standards. So yes side would have to win more than 80% of the votes, to get more than 50% of registered voters.

But it would be a strange and interesting campaign. The yes side will try to boost the turnout, the no side will try to suppress it. Any vote that is not cast counts as a no vote.

 

[Kreskin]

OK, so how many people do you think will realistically vote in a referendum? You can be sure that government will hold it on a very inconvenient day, so that people will have to make an effort to vote.

Now, if say 60% of people voted, that would be considered a very good turnout, by general election standards. So yes side would have to win more than 80% of the votes, to get more than 50% of registered voters.

But it would be a strange and interesting campaign. The yes side will try to boost the turnout, the no side will try to suppress it. Any vote that is not cast counts as a no vote.

Yes, isn't easy to overturn tax legislation. It won't be easy to pass the initiative 90 day rule either. But we'll give it a run and see what happens. Nobody succeeds by doing nothing, and if there is an initiative vote it will be interesting. I'll bet it gets a better turnout than a Provincial election.

 

[JLM]

Yes, isn't easy to overturn tax legislation. It won't be easy to pass the initiative 90 day rule either. But we'll give it a run and see what happens. Nobody succeeds by doing nothing, and if there is an initiative vote it will be interesting. I'll bet it gets a better turnout than a Provincial election.

I think you are right Kreskin- most people I've talked to are utterly disgusted with this Draconian measure. On the other hand Gordie has 3 more years before he has to face the electorate, so no doubt he'll be spending his nights dreaming up all sorts of tactics. The bottom line is a GOOD leader respects the wishes of the electorate.

 

[Curiosity]

Where did you get the impression that Tea Party is in the middle? Tell me even one of their positions that is middle of the road. Nothing of the sort. Tea Party is on the right wing fringe of American politics. They are simply mad because they don’t have any power in Washington, that is where their energy comes from. Once Republicans make gains in November election (which is inevitable, in a mid term election, the party out of power always makes gains), I expect that Tea Party will disappear.

Indeed that may be one of the reason that Tea Party is popular today, many people just don’t know much about them, what they stand for. To say that it is a middle of the road, a centrist party, really shows that you don’t know much about the Tea Party. As I said, show me even one of their policies which is middle of the road.

As people find out more about the Tea Party, its popularity will inevitably decrease.

And this phenomenon is nothing new. When Republicans are in power, Democrats have the energy, as happened in 2006 elections. When Democrats are in power, Republicans have the energy, as is happening this year. We have been here before, it is nothing new.

Hi SirJoseph ...

I believe you have misread what I mean to imply.

My description of "middle" meant those people who were crossovers between the two ideologies. I have both conservative and liberal preferences and it is difficult to "pledge allegiance" to one party for me. There are many like me who have hooked up with the Tea Party because they can't rely on their own party (or the major two) - to get on the bandwagon for their particular issues and preferences.

I had a great deal of difficulty signing on to a party and had to decide which one represented the "most important" issues for me that happened to be fiscal issues which was represented well by the Conservative party. When it comes to social and people issues - I prefer more liberal solution but balk at crossing over into socialist when it comes to the government "taking over" what the people should retain as their own responsibility within privacy and not be dictated to....

So I am one of those Siamese Twin types....and many of the Tea Party membership are similar. I doubt true blue blood Conservatives would have such loud fun gatherings ....

Things are a-changing and I can only hope those people who know their nation far better than I - a newcomer - will prevail.

I don't know whether you are opposed to change with your derision or opposed to Conservative ideology - but I want to assure you there are more than Conservatives within that group trying to effect improvement and less government interference.

I think you react too quickly to your embedded beliefs which may be not as you believe at this time of change. As a knowledgeable neighbor who has lived in the USA at one time, wish us good fortune will you rather than judgment. Things take time.

 

[JLM]

Hi SirJoseph ...

I believe you have misread what I mean to imply.

My description of "middle" meant those people who were crossovers between the two ideologies. I have both conservative and liberal preferences and it is difficult to "pledge allegiance" to one party for me. There are many like me who have hooked up with the Tea Party because they can't rely on their own party (or the major two) - to get on the bandwagon for their particular issues and preferences.

I had a great deal of difficulty signing on to a party and had to decide which one represented the "most important" issues for me that happened to be fiscal issues which was represented well by the Conservative party. When it comes to social and people issues - I prefer more liberal solution but balk at crossing over into socialist when it comes to the government "taking over" what the people should retain as their own responsibility within privacy and not be dictated to....

So I am one of those Siamese Twin types....and many of the Tea Party membership are similar. I doubt true blue blood Conservatives would have such loud fun gatherings ....

Things are a-changing and I can only hope those people who know their nation far better than I - a newcomer - will prevail.

I don't know whether you are opposed to change with your derision or opposed to Conservative ideology - but I want to assure you there are more than Conservatives within that group trying to effect improvement and less government interference.

I think you react too quickly to your embedded beliefs which may be not as you believe at this time of change. As a knowledgeable neighbor who has lived in the USA at one time, wish us good fortune will you rather than judgment. Things take time.

Good morning Curio

Some people seem to think that all people fit rigidly to the philosophy of one party or the other. Of course this isn't true. As I've said (about 1000 times before) parties overlap in their philosophies. Only nut cases adhere to a strict left wing or right wing philosophy, neither of them work in real life. "Sensible" doesn't follow any political stripe. Have a good day. (Hope you don't get bored with my natterings)

 

[Curiosity]

Hi JLM

Get bored? I need to learn from your writing skill how to say what I mean in three sentences or less - your abbreviated statements say far more with impact
than my meandering around....

You captured what I was trying to say to Sir Joseph so well.... there are very few
really dedicated single party folk these days - the issues have gotten far too complicated....and better for the population as a group....communication has become more widespread, up to date and current. But the membership and citizenry has become far more diverse than they were even twenty years ago....

The political parties have neglected to update themselves and they now suffer for it.

 

[JLM]

Hi JLM

Get bored? I need to learn from your writing skill how to say what I mean in three sentences or less - your abbreviated statements say far more with impact
than my meandering around....

You captured what I was trying to say to Sir Joseph so well.... there are very few
really dedicated single party folk these days - the issues have gotten far too complicated....and better for the population as a group....communication has become more widespread, up to date and current. But the membership and citizenry has become far more diverse than they were even twenty years ago....

The political parties have neglected to update themselves and they now suffer for it.

I think if anything the poltical parties are covering a wider scope (out of desperation to please everybody on election day) which is the main reason I say they are much the same thing. Do whatever it takes to get elected..................:lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Hi SirJoseph ...

I believe you have misread what I mean to imply.

My description of "middle" meant those people who were crossovers between the two ideologies. I have both conservative and liberal preferences and it is difficult to "pledge allegiance" to one party for me. There are many like me who have hooked up with the Tea Party because they can't rely on their own party (or the major two) - to get on the bandwagon for their particular issues and preferences.

But where is the evidence for that, Curiosity? Polls show that Tea Party is overwhelmingly Republican.

Below The Beltway Blog Archive Poll: 40% Of Tea Party Members Are Democrats Or Independents

57% are Republicans, 13% are Democrats. It is a mostly Republican movement.

I had a great deal of difficulty signing on to a party and had to decide which one represented the "most important" issues for me that happened to be fiscal issues which was represented well by the Conservative party. When it comes to social and people issues - I prefer more liberal solution but balk at crossing over into socialist when it comes to the government "taking over" what the people should retain as their own responsibility within privacy and not be dictated to....

So I am one of those Siamese Twin types....and many of the Tea Party membership are similar. I doubt true blue blood Conservatives would have such loud fun gatherings ....

I don't doubt that you may be an independent who supports the Tea Party. But that is not the typical Tea Party member. A typical Tea Party member is a Republican.

Things are a-changing and I can only hope those people who know their nation far better than I - a newcomer - will prevail.

And which newcomer are you talking about? Romney? Palin? Huckabee? As i said, we have been here before.

I don't know whether you are opposed to change with your derision or opposed to Conservative ideology - but I want to assure you there are more than Conservatives within that group trying to effect improvement and less government interference.

I am opposed to conservative ideology. And there may be more than conservatives, but as the poll tells us, a majority are Republicans.

I think you react too quickly to your embedded beliefs which may be not as you believe at this time of change. As a knowledgeable neighbor who has lived in the USA at one time, wish us good fortune will you rather than judgment. Things take time.

You did have a change in 2006 and 2008. Now you are talking of going back to the pre 2006 days. Hardly sounds like a change to me.

As to wishing you good fortunes, sure I wish you good fortune. However, under Bush, USA has dug a deep hole for itself, it will take decades to dig out. And Tea Party is simply a protest movement, it doesn't have any solutions.

Tea Party talks in terms of 30 second sound bites. No new taxes, less government etc. What concrete solution have they proposed for the nation's ills? In fact, that will be its downfall. If they ever propose concrete solutions as to what should be done, their popularity very likely will plummet.

Currently it is popular because it is all things to all people. It is largely an undefined protest movement, so people see in the Tea Party what they want to see. If it remains a protest movement, it will fade away. If they start proposing solutions, very likely they will be right wing solutions and will turn people away. Either way, I don't see much future for the Tea Party.

 

[Curiosity]

I think if anything the poltical parties are covering a wider scope (out of desperation to please everybody on election day) which is the main reason I say they are much the same thing. Do whatever it takes to get elected..................:lol:

Agree JLM

It's hard to keep all your ducks in order if you keep importing penguins....

The rhetoric is hardly believable on both sides, and the current methodology of news reportage runs with whatever their particular position is on an issue and makes it seem preferable to the party they are backing....

The secret to me would be to find some reliable and independent news coverage which is committed to keeping the public informed honestly - not relying on one source but a background check of each individual issue and presenting say a half hour or an hour on the larger and more important issues for the people.

This two party dogfight is demonstrating how weak the government has become and there are too many immigrants who have lived under other jurisdictions now which the two-party system has not had to deal with before.

They spread themselves all over the board with their "peoples' issue of the day"...and then you never hear of it again. I spent hours and hours looking through various sites on the internet and weighing the votes I committed to but not all people have the interest nor the time.

I learned far more "after I became a citizen preparing for a vote" than I did before I signed on for this crazy trolley ride!

Believe it or not - I still love the nation - it suits my crazy personality - it's failures, it's picking itself up and trying something else, it's open demonstration of love and hate, it's forever forward view of things and what can be, it's ambition, and as always it's unquestioning response to those in need all over the world often at the expense of those in need within the nation.

Why people seem to think Americans believe the nation to be perfect is probably all the idiotic PR put out in movies and the communications industry. America was founded on imperfection.... it's survived because of imperfection and maybe it is the only way it knows how to secure improvement, through trial and lots of error.

If a "perfect" nation existed..... nobody would ever seek to improve or upgrade it.

 

[Curiosity]

SirJoseph

I pretty much wiped myself out writing to JLM one step up but wanted to acknowledge your response to me. I'm not about to change your mind and
you probably have more accurate figures than I do to debate, but I ask you
just one thing....wish the people who are trying to find a better solution
...wish them well will you?

At least they are trying and who or what they believe in or are affiliated with
is unimportant to me - only that they are searching for a better way.

As for their lack of exposure and 30 sec soundbites - that's the entrenched
news departments who have been weaned on everything two-party. The
whole nation is uprooted by these loud troublemakers.....I think it is healthy.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SirJoseph

I pretty much wiped myself out writing to JLM one step up but wanted to acknowledge your response to me. I'm not about to change your mind and
you probably have more accurate figures than I do to debate, but I ask you
just one thing....wish the people who are trying to find a better solution
...wish them well will you?

At least they are trying and who or what they believe in or are affiliated with
is unimportant to me - only that they are searching for a better way.

As for their lack of exposure and 30 sec soundbites - that's the entrenched
news departments who have been weaned on everything two-party. The
whole nation is uprooted by these loud troublemakers.....I think it is healthy.

Oh, I do wish them well, but is the Tea Party trying to find solutions? What solutions have they proposed to date? To reduce the deficit? To help the unemployed? To solve the immigration problem? Global warming? Exactly what solutions have they proposed?

To me, Tea Party sounds like a typical protest movement. Such movements periodically rise up and fade away.

So I am all for finding solution, but exactly what solutions has the Tea Party offered?

Protest may be healthy, but what good is protest without offering any solutions?

 

[Curiosity]

I put up a link on Crash The Tea Party for you - it was nothing more than a sales gadget for apparel....thought they might have something interesting...

Later! Work calls me.

 

[superreggie]

I've always liked him and really like his leadership in the HST fight. He knows his stuff.

It's too bad his term in office was during BC's naive love affair with unions. He would've made a great Premiere in this time.

I honestly hope the guy runs for Prime Minister. If he didn't win he'd sure kick some political ass along the way.

Are you KIDDING ME? Just a small matter of that suitcase full of cash to sell out the expo lands for the cost that the province paid to clean them up? They have been sold for billions. B.C. should have benefited handsomely from the building boom, but Bill Vanzerzalm screwed us big time.

You obviously never watched the Vanzerzalm X-mas special. He's not just a crook. He's insane...

 

[JLM]

Bill Vanderzalm is a great guy, he presided at my 25 year service banquet and the wife and I had a quite a chat with him (Premiers don't generally sit down and chew the fat with the riff raff) I admire Bill for hard work, business acumen and for being personable, but I don't think he fit the mold of being premier as he is too inflexible and was too connected to his religious beliefs. A lot of folks these days expect something for nothing and Bill would never go for that, so of course he was always at odds with the Unions.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Bill Vanderzalm's Mother used to drive me to Sunday School.

She was a nice little old lady. Her son on the other hand?

Vander Zalm became embroiled in a conflict of interest controversy over the sale of his Fantasy Gardens flower garden and theme park. The confict of interest arose because the Taiwanese buyer, Tan Yu was provided with VIP treatment and lunch with the Lieutenant-Governor prior to the sale, as well, Vander Zalm claimed that control over the theme park was his wife's responsibility.

It was proven in BC Supreme Court that he was in fact intimately involved in the sale. The implication was that Vander Zalm used his position as Premier to gain access to cabinet ministers for Tan Yu and himself, to promote his own business transactions. Vander Zalm was forced to resign over the scandal.

 

[JLM]

Bill Vanderzalm's Mother used to drive me to Sunday School.

She was a nice little old lady. Her son on the other hand?

Bill is a nice guy too, but he is better suited to pruning the primroses, than being Premier.

 

[In Between Man]

Bring him back! OR Here's another option.

 

[damngrumpy]

Bill is out there for one more fight to help the social conservatives win some kind of
traction for the upcoming Provincial election which will be coming a lot sooner than
most people realize. It won't be two years down the road either. The Liberals will
attempt to save themselves in the next year knowing it is not likely. The NDP knew
the gig was up when they held their leadership convention and went to the people.
Ujjal was dead in the water, and he was the worst leader the New Democrats ever
had, he was really a closet Liberal with nothing but self interest on his mind.
The wonderful thing about politics is it is a living thing actually, The NDP has made
a lot of changes, so have the recent Liberals and Billy is not the same leader material
he was before either. Some will remember New Brunswick years ago a premier named
Hatfield he was so bad that McKenna took every seat in the house at the following election.
some said the Tories would never get elected there again. That did not turn out to be the
case however, and the same it true here in BC.