Best solution for defending Arctic sovereignty?

[Machjo]

The only part of the Canada's arctic border that's in dispute is the offshore border between the Yukon and Alaska. I would be willing to concede that to the US.

The Russians aren't claiming anything closer to us than the North Pole.

The Danes seem willing to settle their differences amicably regarding our border with Greenland. One island is in dispute and recent surveys support Denmark's claim.

The part of the arctic which concerns me are US claims that the NW passage is an international waterway. I disagree. Someone has to regulate it and clean up spills. They probably just want the right to send warships through the passage. I don't see a problem with that either as long as they clean up after themselves and respect the environment.

Canada should develop a capability to monitor and destroy if necessary anything which moves in the our region of the arctic. The means planes, ships and submarines. That's best done from the air.

So if you're correct, then all Canada would really need to do would be:

1. Get confirmation in international law that the NWP is Canada's.

2.A If it's decided that the NWP is international waters, then that's the end of story.

2.B If it's determined that the NWP is Canadian waters, we request as per our rights under international law that the US not enter. If it still insists on entering, then all we'd need would be a military presence at all the entrances to the NWP, with sea ports of various sizes near each entrance along with regular submarine reconnaissance. But we should spend such money only after it's confirmed in international law that it is our water and that the US has proven unwilling to comply, otherwise it would be nothing more than provocative bullying on our part.

 

[Machjo]

Earth_as_one: I would not concede the Arctic shelf to the US as it is one of the most oil rich regions there. Following the Yukon -Alaska border to the pole is the most logical.

It's not a question of whether it has resources or not. It's a question of whether international law supports it as ours. Without that, from a PR standpoint, we would simply come across as the bullies and provocateurs without legal claim to the region.

I agree with you on the NWP as it is Canadian territory all around it. Of course all this only makes sense if you buy into the global warming myth.

Anything to back it up?

 

[Machjo]

Sink trespassers with toques or lacrosse sticks. Borders are stupid to begin with.

Agreed. Turtle Island has but one shell.

 

[In Between Man]

What are your ideas?

To my gleeful surprise it let me pick two, so I went with 2 and 3. Its better for us, freedom, and the world if we own the north. And since there's a time to be diplomatic and a time to talk tough, I say we look those ruskies in the eye and say "Давайте качаться!"

What were doing now is a good start, but more certainly needs to be done. More than a couple of ice breaker ships!

 

[In Between Man]

Mine isn't a popular view.

People have been living in the Arctic for eons. They ought to be sovereign people. They ought to be able to go to the UN and declare not only their hunting grounds, but also their nationality, be it Canadian or an independent nation, or hedge their bets on another country like the US or Russia.

Treason! Treason! Treason! :lol::lol::lol:

Identify themselves as Russian!? Whatever happened to one united nation. Our home and native land? Its too valuable NOT to protect as Canadian!

 

[AnnaG]

We could fly over them in our pterodactyls (antique helicopters) and bomb trespassers with megatonnes of poutine.

 

[Kakato]

Just going from personal experience after spending a few years there,the Inuit have the highest child suicide rate in the world and the people also have the highest voter turn out for elections in all of Canada.
They want to change things,deep ports and subs cruising the arctic are fallacies of peeps who havent been there.
The Rangers on their dog sleds with vintage ww2 british 303 rifles are the best bit of sovereghnity we have in the Arctic.
I truly think these folks want to be free of the government and the money that corrupts some of their elders and spawns nepotism and the handing out of the govt.cash.
I've seen the same thing all over Alta reserves and the territories,elders getting big payback from the govt. and then handed down to family.

This needs to stop,the corrupt need to be be charged and thrown in jail.

 

[DavidB]

I agree with one of FiveParadox's points: populate it.

I don't think we should ignore it but say nobody else can do anything there either. Like the old saying goes: s**** or get off the pot.

However, the big question is how to build it up in terms of population, economy, and military presence. That's the trick.

 

[Kakato]

I agree with one of FiveParadox's points: populate it.

I don't think we should ignore it but say nobody else can do anything there either. Like the old saying goes: s**** or get off the pot.

However, the big question is how to build it up in terms of population, economy, and military presence. That's the trick.

Taken care of allready bud,their called the rangers ,thats your military presence.
The big ice breakers dont do good whilst breaking through ten feet of ice and as for population,they have that allready.

As for jobs,you either work at the Northern store or for an exploration camp.
There is no jobs in the arctic that pay well except fpr govt. or construction for a contractor in a different province.

 

[AnnaG]

Just going from personal experience after spending a few years there,the Inuit have the highest child suicide rate in the world and the people also have the highest voter turn out for elections in all of Canada.
They want to change things,deep ports and subs cruising the arctic are fallacies of peeps who havent been there.
The Rangers on their dog sleds with vintage ww2 british 303 rifles are the best bit of sovereghnity we have in the Arctic.
I truly think these folks want to be free of the government and the money that corrupts some of their elders and spawns nepotism and the handing out of the govt.cash.
I've seen the same thing all over Alta reserves and the territories,elders getting big payback from the govt. and then handed down to family.

This needs to stop,the corrupt need to be be charged and thrown in jail.

It should have happened long ago. However politicians are corrupt as anything and the biggest thieves have huge lobbies to sway the pols with.

 

[AnnaG]

I agree with one of FiveParadox's points: populate it.

I don't think we should ignore it but say nobody else can do anything there either. Like the old saying goes: s**** or get off the pot.

However, the big question is how to build it up in terms of population, economy, and military presence. That's the trick.

Global warming will force us to do that. As the north melts, people will move there to get away from the heat farther south. All that frozen vegetation and stuff in the (not so permanent anymore) permafrost has got to be awesome for growing stuff.

BTW, I chose all four of the poll answers because there wasn't an "other" choice.

 

[Trex]

Just going from personal experience after spending a few years there,the Inuit have the highest child suicide rate in the world and the people also have the highest voter turn out for elections in all of Canada.
They want to change things,deep ports and subs cruising the arctic are fallacies of peeps who havent been there.
The Rangers on their dog sleds with vintage ww2 british 303 rifles are the best bit of sovereghnity we have in the Arctic.
I truly think these folks want to be free of the government and the money that corrupts some of their elders and spawns nepotism and the handing out of the govt.cash.
I've seen the same thing all over Alta reserves and the territories,elders getting big payback from the govt. and then handed down to family.

This needs to stop,the corrupt need to be be charged and thrown in jail.

For a guy who spent a couple of years up there you appear to be completely in the dark about what goes on up there.
Its true Canada does not have a ton of hardware up there but other people sure do.
No subs in the arctic you say.
You have no clue.

Let me run through it for you.
Alert on the northern tip of Ellsmere Island is an over the top listening post and satellite signal interception base.
It also acts as a radar tracking center.
It's jointly run by the Canadians and Americans.
With a lot of help from all the high tech wizards in the private sector like GE, Sperry,Microsoft,Westinghouse, Lockheed Martin, Rand and all the rest.
A gnat can't fart over the pole without red lights going off all over the boards.
The cold weather strip handles C5's, Hercs and Canadian F18's.
If a bogey appears on the western side of the high arctic it becomes more effective to scramble interceptors from Cold Lake.
Back at Alert the Americans co-chair the intercept and tracking systems and remain extremely interested in all incursions into Canadian airspace.
Spitting distance to the east of Ellsmere lies Greenland.
In Thule, Greenland lies one of Americas largest old SAC bases.
Now reorganized and renamed but as far as I know still loaded with F14's,F15's, F16's,C5's and a vast array of nuclear bombers as well as a shwack of cruise missiles and a ton of nukes.
Back to the subs that you claim dont exist in the Arctic.
It just so happens that the number one spot for hiding in a nuclear submarine is....
wait for it....in the Arctic under the polar ice cap.
American, French, Russian, British and Chinese subs all lurk under the Arctic ice.
The boomers will full compliments of armed nuclear weapons linger under the ice for months on end.
And of course the various nations hunter killers prowl about seeking them.
Cat and mouse under the polar ice pack.
Back in Alert on Ellsmere Island the Sosus submarine detection system analysis is still I believe up and running.
Hydrophones scattered all over the ocean floor under the polar ice cap can detect and analyze the sound profile and signature of any submarine prop.
They can even track those funky tractor propulsion systems the Russians use.
And I hear the intelligence is so good once they identify the sound signature of a Russian or Chinese boat they have current manifests listing the names of the entire crew.
And the Rangers may have old rifles that function best in the extreme cold but the boys up in Alert travel in full camo and pack what looked to me like stubby little M16's.
And the SAS boys I saw up there were packing even weirder looking stuff.
So you were up there and so was I.
I was under contract to the military.
Guess I saw a few things you overlooked.

Trex

 

[Kakato]

For a guy who spent a couple of years up there you appear to be completely in the dark about what goes on up there.
Its true Canada does not have a ton of hardware up there but other people sure do.
No subs in the arctic you say.
You have no clue.

Let me run through it for you.
Alert on the northern tip of Ellsmere Island is an over the top listening post and satellite signal interception base.
It also acts as a radar tracking center.
It's jointly run by the Canadians and Americans.
With a lot of help from all the high tech wizards in the private sector like GE, Sperry,Microsoft,Westinghouse, Lockheed Martin, Rand and all the rest.
A gnat can't fart over the pole without red lights going off all over the boards.
The cold weather strip handles C5's, Hercs and Canadian F18's.
If a bogey appears on the western side of the high arctic it becomes more effective to scramble interceptors from Cold Lake.
Back at Alert the Americans co-chair the intercept and tracking systems and remain extremely interested in all incursions into Canadian airspace.
Spitting distance to the east of Ellsmere lies Greenland.
In Thule, Greenland lies one of Americas largest old SAC bases.
Now reorganized and renamed but as far as I know still loaded with F14's,F15's, F16's,C5's and a vast array of nuclear bombers as well as a shwack of cruise missiles and a ton of nukes.
Back to the subs that you claim dont exist in the Arctic.
It just so happens that the number one spot for hiding in a nuclear submarine is....
wait for it....in the Arctic under the polar ice cap.
American, French, Russian, British and Chinese subs all lurk under the Arctic ice.
The boomers will full compliments of armed nuclear weapons linger under the ice for months on end.
And of course the various nations hunter killers prowl about seeking them.
Cat and mouse under the polar ice pack.
Back in Alert on Ellsmere Island the Sosus submarine detection system analysis is still I believe up and running.
Hydrophones scattered all over the ocean floor under the polar ice cap can detect and analyze the sound profile and signature of any submarine prop.
They can even track those funky tractor propulsion systems the Russians use.
And I hear the intelligence is so good once they identify the sound signature of a Russian or Chinese boat they have current manifests listing the names of the entire crew.
And the Rangers may have old rifles that function best in the extreme cold but the boys up in Alert travel in full camo and pack what looked to me like stubby little M16's.
And the SAS boys I saw up there were packing even weirder looking stuff.
So you were up there and so was I.
I was under contract to the military.
Guess I saw a few things you overlooked.

Trex

They scramble interceptors from cold lake because their allways ready to go,that cant happen in the arctic(I worked on the cold lake range this spring,very interesting and a bit scary getting buzzed by jets breaking the sound barrier) and hercs land anywhere as its easy to build a strip for them on any lake(did that too)as they need only a mile or less to land.
I never saw anyone traveling in cammo after one day at rankin inlet at minus 50,they usually traded for fur as soon as possible,the cold weather military gear just doesnt cut it.

and who really cares if theres subs cruising under ten feet of ice,russian or otherwise?
If someones gonna nuke us or the usa it will be a full blown attack from more places then a couple subs
Far as sovereinity go's there are Canadians living there so it's ours.

 

[AnnaG]

Far as sovereinity go's there are Canadians living there so it's ours.

So far. lol

 

[Trex]

They scramble interceptors from cold lake because their always ready to go,that cant happen in the arctic(I worked on the cold lake range this spring,very interesting and a bit scary getting buzzed by jets breaking the sound barrier) and hercs land anywhere as its easy to build a strip for them on any lake(did that too)as they need only a mile or less to land.
I never saw anyone traveling in cammo after one day at rankin inlet at minus 50,they usually traded for fur as soon as possible,the cold weather military gear just doesnt cut it.

and who really cares if theres subs cruising under ten feet of ice,russian or otherwise?
If someone's gonna nuke us or the usa it will be a full blown attack from more places then a couple subs
Far as sovereignty go's there are Canadians living there so it's ours.

Once again your factually wrong.
I am really not trying to pick on you and I agree with lots of your other posts but be aware when you claim to know whats going on in a certain place the possibility exists
that others have equivalent or greater experience in the locale.
I have been schooled a quite few times on this forum, happens all the time.

Back to the debate at hand.
You said there were no subs in the Arctic.
I pointed out there are hordes of them.
Now you don't care.

You said the military in the Arctic seems primitive.
I pointed out many parts of Canada's military in the north are extremely high tech.
I told you that there is a massive American airbase in Thule and now you are saying planes cannot fly in the Arctic and can only fly out of Cold Lake.
Your flat wrong.
Dude at 45,000 feet its always really cold.
There is on this forum a guy named Juan.
I totally disagree with his politics but when it comes to flying planes in Canada I would pass on arguing with him personally.
My guess is he will confirm planes fly in really cold weather.
Granted a problem exists in maintaining, servicing and safety starting up planes in cold weather but its do-able.

You were in Rankin Inlet.
In the greater scheme of things that's really not very far north.
Check it out on google maps.
Alert on Ellsmere is thousands of kilometers north of Rankin.
And so is Thule, Greenland.
The reality is you were in the deep south when it comes to really high Arctic latitudes.
And way up there different nations have planes, bombers, choppers, subs and god knows what all.
It's a massive pain in the ass to do and maintain but it can be done.

And as for swapping out cold weather gear for furs in Rankin.
Come on.
I was thousands of miles north of you and we wearing high tech, state of the art cold weather gear.
And so does the military.
And it isn't furs.
Nothing wrong with with native cold weather gear.
I am aware how caribou and seal furs have hollow insulating hairs.
And how durable and warm it is.
But have you ever seen a climber on Everest in furs?
No?
Ever seen a National Geograpic show on researchers on the south pole with people dressed in furs?
No?
Same deal up north.
And I mean way, way up north.
Further north than where the Inuit hang out.
The high tech stuff works just fine.
It just needs wolverine fur hood trim to prevent frosting up.
Your statement about cold weather military gear "not cutting it" is completely wrong.
The Canadian military has access to the same gear that goes up mountains and crosses the poles.
It works pretty good all things considered.

The Canadian military's machine guns shoot.
The planes fly.
The subs skulk about (of course they are not Canadian subs).
And so forth and so on.

I just don't think your an expert on it.
Nor am I really.
I think I just saw some things you haven't.

Trex

 

[Kakato]

i never said they cant fly jets in the arctic,just that its faster to scramble them from cold lake where ground blizzards dont exist 90% of the time in the winter,i also never said there was no subs in the arctic,just that if they are there then who cares in this day and age?

My mother was a commercial pilot,instructor and bush pilot,my dad and brother are also pilots,I know a bit about what most planes capabilities are.

As for high tech gear,sorry but the troops coming up for training traded for furs and maybe you think baker lake,gjoe haven and rankin are south but i was there when we hit a record minus 80 so geographically speaking,that just as cold or colder then its ever been at Ellesmere.
I do know what works and what doesnt in the barrenlands,high tech looks good on paper but is basically useless in the cold.

 

[Kakato]

What you see explorers wearing on national geographic shows are Canada goose parka's,one of the best and warmest parkas you can buy,mine cost me $800.00 but it's still not as warm as a sealskin parka.I also tried both Canadian and USA militaryextreme winter clothing like boots and mitts,totally useless allthough i did get a chuckle out of the faux fur on the american mitts and instructions on how to use your trigger finger with them on.

 

[Kakato]

I guess what bugs is me is that for 4 years I witnessed a fuel and food shortage in the arctic,barges frozen in from hudsons bay to baker lake from september to june and no one cared,it barely made the news,now that the Russians are showing interest all of a sudden it's a priority,people want expensive fuel guzzling icebreakers to do what????
Break ten feet of ice so it can freeze back over in minutes?
Whats the point?
Maybe the govt. should learn how to take care of the people living there instead of worrying about nuke subs cruising around first.

 

[Kakato]

IMO,the only Arctic experts are the peeps that live there,and they are also survivors as is anyone who trys to spend a winter up there.
The winter I spent up there was the same time the mars crew was north of us training for a mars landing,I exchanged many youtube vids with them when i was at camp,they also have many vids on youtube as do I.

YouTube - Just another day at the office

 

[Kakato]

A year ago today,I flew out of that moonscape.

YouTube - july in nunavut