At least 2,250 of Canada’s veterans are homeless due to alcoholism, drugs and mental

Machjo

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That's easier said than done when you're dealing with mental health issues.

That depends on the mental health issue in question.

Two take a hypothetical scenario.

I'm the government and want to provide housing for everyone.

Three men are homeless. One earns some money but not enough to pay the rent. Another is unemployed but physically fit, and the third is completely messed up.

Let's explore two options:

1. I just pay the rent for all of them.

2. I partially subsidize the first man's rent and hire the second to build a house for the third, his new income allowing him to rent a place for himself.

Yes, I agree we should support those who cannot support themselves, but those who could support themselves but just don't know how should just be provided the necessary knowledge. Much cheaper. To skip solutions that can help people help themselves and just jumping straight to the government throwing money at everyone is highly inefficient.

If we're dealing only with addiction brought on by mild PTSD, OCD, and BPD, quite often his circumstances could be significantly improved just by ensuring that the addict knows where to turn for help, and that would merely involve better regulation of the advertizing of potentially addictive products and services.

In turn, this would free up funds to help those suffering from more serious mental health problems.

I guess what I'm getting at is a scaled approach aiming at providing the help each needs to the degree he needs it. Some just need a finger pointing in the right direction, a heads up.
 
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JLM

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Your words, not mine.

My agenda. LOL

The title of the Thread: At least 2,250 of Canada’s veterans are homeless due to alcoholism, drugs and mental health issues.

It would be refreshing if you didn't just simply ignore the things you say, when you can't substantiate them.

Silly me, what was I thinking. You're a first class wimp in the arena of debate.

You should run for a political seat.

You got that right, he's good at sniping but can't clean up the mess! :)
 

Cannuck

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Oh I did.

Clearly you haven't. I'll give you a hint. Check out post number 37. That's the post that RCS finds difficult

That depends on the mental health issue in question.

Two take a hypothetical scenario.

I'm the government and want to provide housing for everyone.

Three men are homeless. One earns some money but not enough to pay the rent. Another is unemployed but physically fit, and the third is completely messed up.

Let's explore two options:

1. I just pay the rent for all of them.

2. I partially subsidize the first man's rent and hire the second to build a house for the third, his new income allowing him to rent a place for himself.

Yes, I agree we should support those who cannot support themselves, but those who could support themselves but just don't know how should just be provided the necessary knowledge. Much cheaper. To skip solutions that can help people help themselves and just jumping straight to the government throwing money at everyone is highly inefficient.

If we're dealing only with addiction brought on by mild PTSD, OCD, and BPD, quite often his circumstances could be significantly improved just by ensuring that the addict knows where to turn for help, and that would merely involve better regulation of the advertizing of potentially addictive products and services.

In turn, this would free up funds to help those suffering from more serious mental health problems.

I guess what I'm getting at is a scaled approach aiming at providing the help each needs to the degree he needs it. Some just need a finger pointing in the right direction, a heads up.

They still have to be willing to work with and in the system.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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I'm sorry I don't see you backing up your bullsh-t with anything other than more bullsh-t.

Why? Why can't you back up your bullsh-t?
 

Machjo

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Clearly you haven't. I'll give you a hint. Check out post number 37. That's the post that RCS finds difficult



They still have to be willing to work with and in the system.

Who? The sufferers? I don't know how it works in the military (compulsory courses on mental health and how to identify PTSD, posters in mess halls, booklets, pamphlets or other advertizing?), but in the civilian world, it is poorly done. Many have heard of mental illness and mental health services, but how well do they understand it?

As an example, let's say I'm an alcoholic and see an ad concerning mental health services. Will I understand that addiction is a mental health problem or will I believe it to be an unrelated problem?

If I believe it to be separate, then I won't seek help believing that a mental health professional can't help with addiction.

Now if I see an ad for addiction therapy, that might attract me. But again, let's say I'm poor and am under the false impression that I must pay for the service. This means that the ad might need to make its prices clear somehow.

Or let's say I suffer sex addiction but am unfamiliar with the term and so while self-identifying my behaviour as compulsive, I somehow fail to recognize that I've just defined an addiction, and so erroneously conclude since whatever I'm suffering is not an addiction, an addiction therapist can't help me with my problem.

A good example that I'd seen was an ad for gambling addiction. It addressed gambling addiction specifically and explicitly and provided a website for further information.

Any gambling addict would understand that it addresses him directly. Though a mental health professional will understand that all addictions, both chemical and behavioural, are all forms of the same problem or, more precisely, symptoms of a common mental illness (PTSD, BPD, or OCD usually), the common addict might not understand this and view gambling addiction as distinct from drug addiction, internet and gaming addiction, etc. and fail to see the addiction, though a problem in itself, as also a symptom of a deeper mental health problem.

As for its location, it was on a public transit bus. A somewhat good location given that a gambler might not have money for a car, but let's not assume that all gamblers take the bus, even on occasion. A rationalist approach would suggest putting the ad precisely where we know the gambler will look: on the lottery ticket itself.

Aside from that minor point, that was an exemplary ad campaign in my opinion. I've also seen a Narcotics Anonymous ad that was equally well done, again directed at a specific audience that would easily recognize itself in it.

Simply offering the services does not suffice. Making people aware of the existence of such services does not suffice either. It is important for the ad to make the target audience understand that the service applies to it.

I would not be surprised to find the military doing a better job of it due to a captive audience (in a classroom setting teaching them about how to recognize the symptoms of PTSD dor example). The closest we could compare I civilian life might be a high school course that would cover various addictions. Though even then, what of the student was I'll for that course or is an immigrant?

Yes he must operate within the system, but the system must also reach out to him in an adequate manner. Advertizing 101.

Clearly you haven't. I'll give you a hint. Check out post number 37. That's the post that RCS finds difficult



They still have to be willing to work with and in the system.

Who? The sufferers? I don't know how it works in the military (compulsory courses on mental health and how to identify PTSD, posters in mess halls, booklets, pamphlets or other advertizing?), but in the civilian world, it is poorly done. Many have heard of mental illness and mental health services, but how well do they understand it?

As an example, let's say I'm an alcoholic and see an ad concerning mental health services. Will I understand that addiction is a mental health problem or will I believe it to be an unrelated problem?

If I believe it to be separate, then I won't seek help believing that a mental health professional can't help with addiction.

Now if I see an ad for addiction therapy, that might attract me. But again, let's say I'm poor and am under the false impression that I must pay for the service. This means that the ad might need to make its prices clear somehow.

Or let's say I suffer sex addiction but am unfamiliar with the term and so while self-identifying my behaviour as compulsive, I somehow fail to recognize that I've just defined an addiction, and so erroneously conclude since whatever I'm suffering is not an addiction, an addiction therapist can't help me with my problem.

A good example that I'd seen was an ad for gambling addiction. It addressed gambling addiction specifically and explicitly and provided a website for further information.

Any gambling addict would understand that it addresses him directly. Though a mental health professional will understand that all addictions, both chemical and behavioural, are all forms of the same problem or, more precisely, symptoms of a common mental illness (PTSD, BPD, or OCD usually), the common addict might not understand this and view gambling addiction as distinct from drug addiction, internet and gaming addiction, etc. and fail to see the addiction, though a problem in itself, as also a symptom of a deeper mental health problem.

As for its location, it was on a public transit bus. A somewhat good location given that a gambler might not have money for a car, but let's not assume that all gamblers take the bus, even on occasion. A rationalist approach would suggest putting the ad precisely where we know the gambler will look: on the lottery ticket itself.

Aside from that minor point, that was an exemplary ad campaign in my opinion. I've also seen a Narcotics Anonymous ad that was equally well done, again directed at a specific audience that would easily recognize itself in it.

Simply offering the services does not suffice. Making people aware of the existence of such services does not suffice either. It is important for the ad to make the target audience understand that the service applies to it.

I would not be surprised to find the military doing a better job of it due to a captive audience (in a classroom setting teaching them about how to recognize the symptoms of PTSD dor example). The closest we could compare I civilian life might be a high school course that would cover various addictions. Though even then, what of the student who was ill for that course or is an immigrant?

Yes he must operate within the system, but the system must also reach out to him in an adequate manner. Advertizing 101.
 

Cannuck

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Reread what was never posted and you are saying I'm high? Where are your stats?

They arent my stats. I don't own them. Why do they bother you so much? Why do you come here when you're so high?

Who? The sufferers? I don't know how it works in the military (compulsory courses on mental health and how to identify PTSD, posters in mess halls, booklets, pamphlets or other advertizing?), but in the civilian world, it is poorly done. Many have heard of mental illness and mental health services, but how well do they understand it?

You can take all the courses and training you want but it doesn't help much when you aren't thinking straight. My wife's grandmother had dementia and we discussed at length what we wanted done if we suffered the same fate. That was of no benefit until she tried to hurt her father and the choice was between the psych ward and city cells. You simply can't force anybody to have any medical treatment until they become a danger to others or themselves and people not thinking straight are more inclined to not want help. Dementia sufferers especially, are apt to be paranoid and distrustful.

I would not be surprised to find the military doing a better job of it due to a captive audience (in a classroom setting teaching them about how to recognize the symptoms of PTSD dor example)

If the homeless rates for veterans are indeed 1/2 to 1/3 the rate of the general population then, quite clearly, they are doing a bang up job.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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You've made statements that it is the government's fault and it is the publics fault however, if the stats I provided are correct and the homeless rates among veterans is actually half that of the general population, I submit that all things considered, the government is doing a reasonably good job. Clearly this bothers you as you seem unwilling to address it.

Certainly not everyone is equal, but when it comes to basic care, there should be equal treatment for every citizen in the country.

I do not see any information that would preclude others receiving those basic services over veterans so I'm not sure that RCS's or other conbot arguments hold any weight here.

I'm sure this will not prevent dumb conservative radio from making false equivalence comparisons to the treatment of refugees though. Lying is the conbot's bread and butter.
 

Machjo

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They arent my stats. I don't own them. Why do they bother you so much? Why do you come here when you're so high?



You can take all the courses and training you want but it doesn't help much when you aren't thinking straight. My wife's grandmother had dementia and we discussed at length what we wanted done if we suffered the same fate. That was of no benefit until she tried to hurt her father and the choice was between the psych ward and city cells. You simply can't force anybody to have any medical treatment until they become a danger to others or themselves and people not thinking straight are more inclined to not want help. Dementia sufferers especially, are apt to be paranoid and distrustful.

I don't think my statement necessarily contradicts yours though.
Certainly they must both be addressed, but to treat mild forms of PTSD, OCD, BPD, and the addictions that can spring from them in the same way we treat dimentia would be overkill. Worse yet, it would sap funding for dimentia services and overfund therapy for more moderate addictions when all moderate addicts need is just a little education.

Inversely, to treat dimentia in the same way as the more moderate forms of the above would merely lead to gross underfunding.

A moderate addict who is lucky enough to identify the addiction in the early stages (or an extreme addict at the end of his rope) will generally actively want help. He just doesn't know where to turn to get it. All we should really fund there is advertizing educating them about 12-step groups and such.

This in turn could free funds to deal with more extreme forms of PTSD, OCD, and BPD as well as dimentia where the sufferer might be in no mental state to make his own decisions.

But how are we ever to adequately fund services for the serious mental health problems like dimentia when we'return over funding services for mild PTSD, OCD, and BPD when all we really need there is a little funding for ads to help them help themselves.

In short, we should not provide equal services for everyone. Mild addicts should get some advertizing funding directing them to 12-step groups, thus freeing funds for more serious mental health problems.

That said, the advertizing ought to be well-planned to be effective.

In short, we should not provide equal services for everyone. Mild addicts should get some advertizing funding directing them to 12-step groups, thus freeing funds for more serious mental health problems.

That said, the advertizing ought to be well-planned to be effective.
 

mentalfloss

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Treatment for psychological issues aside, there is already a process in place to provide shelter for those that are homeless regardless of what impairment they are suffering from and irrespective of their standing in society.

This has not been compromised.
 

Machjo

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They arent my stats. I don't own them. Why do they bother you so much? Why do you come here when you're so high?



You can take all the courses and training you want but it doesn't help much when you aren't thinking straight. My wife's grandmother had dementia and we discussed at length what we wanted done if we suffered the same fate. That was of no benefit until she tried to hurt her father and the choice was between the psych ward and city cells. You simply can't force anybody to have any medical treatment until they become a danger to others or themselves and people not thinking straight are more inclined to not want help. Dementia sufferers especially, are apt to be paranoid and distrustful.



If the homeless rates for veterans are indeed 1/2 to 1/3 the rate of the general population then, quite clearly, they are doing a bang up job.

Your statistics would seem to support that.

So what makes the military system superior to the civilian one, and how can the civilian system learn from it?

I have a feeling (though please correct me if I'm wrong), that education probably plays a role in it, whether through mental health being taught in classroom courses or through posters, booklets and pamphlets being distributed in the right locations.
 

JLM

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Actually it has very little to do with veterans as everything to do with substance abuse, mental health and the inability to force people to seek help or in many case to offer help. Homeless veterans are no different than homeless mechanics, homeless waitresses or homeless sales people.

I certainly wouldn't bet my first born on that statement. I think there's a perception (possibly quite accurate) that extreme stress is more prevalent among soldiers, marines etc. than among waitresses! :)
 

Cannuck

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I certainly wouldn't bet my first born on that statement. I think there's a perception (possibly quite accurate) that extreme stress is more prevalent among soldiers, marines etc. than among waitresses! :)

Yes it is but the homelessness rates of veterans is lower than the general population. So where's the direct link between the two that so many like to suggest?
 

JLM

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Anyone know what percentage of Canadian population are veterans?



Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2015**

Second World War75,900; their average age is 91Korean War9,100; their average age is 83.CF Veterans (Regular Forces and Primary Reserves)600,300; their average age is 57.Notice

**Estimates of the Veteran population are derived from information in the 1971 Census, a 1988 Statistics Canada Labour Force Survey, and Statistics Canada life tables.

In rough figures about 2%+/-
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Anyone know what percentage of Canadian population are veterans?
estimated Veteran Population as of March 2015**

Second World War
75,900; their average age is 91
Korean War
9,100; their average age is 83.
CF Veterans (Regular Forces and Primary Reserves)
600,300; their average age is 57

0.5%

Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2015**

Second World War75,900; their average age is 91Korean War9,100; their average age is 83.CF Veterans (Regular Forces and Primary Reserves)600,300; their average age is 57.Notice

**Estimates of the Veteran population are derived from information in the 1971 Census, a 1988 Statistics Canada Labour Force Survey, and Statistics Canada life tables.

In rough figures about 2%+/-

O.5%
 

Machjo

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Treatment for psychological issues aside, there is already a process in place to provide shelter for those that are homeless regardless of what impairment they are suffering from and irrespective of their standing in society.

This has not been compromised.

Most if not all of my posts in this thread so far have limited themselves to how to prevent a particular segment of the population (specifically those suffering mild addictions or compulsivity disorders brought on by mild PTSD, OCD, and BPD) from ending up homeless in the first place, assuming that they are doing well aside from the addiction.

Cannuck raised the point that for those suffering more severe mental health problems, that will not suffice and I agree.

I think what you bring up here is also important. Once the person becomes homeless, he suddenly needs far more support than we would ever have needed had we prevented his homelessness in the first place.

The less help he needs before becoming homeless, the greater the contrast.

As an example, a fully employed and well-renumerated addict who is doing well for himself otherwise might just need a finger pointing in the right direction to prevent his addiction from eventually leading him to the streets years down the road.

In that example, why would government not want to better regulate the advertizing of alcohol, lottery tickets, casinos, sex sites, etc. in the same way it does that of tobacco to improve their educational content to point a person in the right direction so as to save much more money down the road, not to mention that homelessness itself can worsen his mental state? In the example of mild addictions, the difference in cost between preventing homelessness and fixing it is like night and day.

In more extreme cases like dimentia, I agree that the cost of preventing homelessness might not be much less than that of fixing it, but even then we must certainly witness at least some savings.

Guaranteed housing just makes economic sense.