any muslim here
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I was born and raised in an ultra conservative Christian religion, from which I recovered during my late teens and early twenties.
I am, I believe, at the present, either a pantheist, or an agnostic, depending upon the direction of the prevailing hot breezes.
I am, I believe, at the present, either a pantheist, or an agnostic, depending upon the direction of the prevailing hot breezes.
Gratitude which, no doubt, is reciprocated, U.P. :roll:unclepercy said:
I'm neither Christian, Muslim, Jew, or anything remotely related to them. I grew up in a devoutly Christian household, but 30 years of thought and study and analysis on the general subject of religion brought me to the atheist position. I don't believe any of it. I've seen no convincing evidence that even suggests there might be a god or gods, it's all anecdote, hearsay, and wishful thinking to me. I can't take it seriously myself, and I have great difficulty taking anyone's religious beliefs seriously.
My current opinion is that religious belief is a delusion. It's a very common delusion, and one generally approved of by all societies, so nobody seeks or is compelled to psychiatric treatment for it, but it's a delusion nonetheless. I don't see how believing in Yahweh or Allah is any different from believing in Zeus or Jupiter or Thor. Those latter three are dead by any reasonable measure, pretty much everybody's an atheist with respect to them, yet in their day they had followers no less fervent than any contemporary Christian, Muslim, or Jew. And what reason is there to think that any contemporary society's religious opinions are any more legitimate than the ancient Roman, Greek, or Norse societies were? I don't know of any.
If anyone has any good evidence that suggests their faith might be the true one, I'd sure like to hear about it. But be warned: my standards of evidence are very high and scientifically rigorous. Arguments from authority (i.e. this very learned person said so), arguments from ignorance (i.e we don't understand this so god must have done it), and other common logical fallacies, aren't admissable. I need clear, positive evidence for religious claims. I've spent 30 years looking for it, and have found nothing that can withstand routine skeptical scrutiny. At the moment I believe that all religious believers are full of nonsense.
Show me the evidence that proves I'm wrong. And please don't misunderstand my motives here. I'd very much like to believe, I've looked for 30 years for reasons to believe, it would be very comforting to believe, especially since both my beloved parents are now dead and lost to me, as far as I can tell. My research has come up empty and I don't know of any good reasons to believe.
So, you believers out there, what have you got, what do you know, that I don't?
My current opinion is that religious belief is a delusion. It's a very common delusion, and one generally approved of by all societies, so nobody seeks or is compelled to psychiatric treatment for it, but it's a delusion nonetheless. I don't see how believing in Yahweh or Allah is any different from believing in Zeus or Jupiter or Thor. Those latter three are dead by any reasonable measure, pretty much everybody's an atheist with respect to them, yet in their day they had followers no less fervent than any contemporary Christian, Muslim, or Jew. And what reason is there to think that any contemporary society's religious opinions are any more legitimate than the ancient Roman, Greek, or Norse societies were? I don't know of any.
If anyone has any good evidence that suggests their faith might be the true one, I'd sure like to hear about it. But be warned: my standards of evidence are very high and scientifically rigorous. Arguments from authority (i.e. this very learned person said so), arguments from ignorance (i.e we don't understand this so god must have done it), and other common logical fallacies, aren't admissable. I need clear, positive evidence for religious claims. I've spent 30 years looking for it, and have found nothing that can withstand routine skeptical scrutiny. At the moment I believe that all religious believers are full of nonsense.
Show me the evidence that proves I'm wrong. And please don't misunderstand my motives here. I'd very much like to believe, I've looked for 30 years for reasons to believe, it would be very comforting to believe, especially since both my beloved parents are now dead and lost to me, as far as I can tell. My research has come up empty and I don't know of any good reasons to believe.
So, you believers out there, what have you got, what do you know, that I don't?
Re: RE: any muslim here
Well because they were made for the Arabs of the time. These laws at the time were extremely progressive, but now in modern society are extremly conservative and sexist! Also in the nations which profess to be muslim the laws are most conservative towards women as men as far as I can see don't follow the Koran to the word as they force woman to do.
Also Christanity was much like Islam at one point, but Europe went threw a period of the enlightenment which slowly but surely brought europe into the modern age, with a more seculer society and a seperation of church and state. The state truly perverts the church and the church perverts the state. Seculerism and humanism may not be the end all, but it sure does help society.
As an indivdual if you chose to follow the principals of Islam, and the prophet, fine, I think you should, I follow a lot of things in the Koran and believe in much of it myself. But it should not be forced onto others by church nor state, or the comination of both. There's one thing the enlightenment philiphers taught Europe for sure is there is one funimental truth. "I think there for I am", nothing else you can really prove 100% the rest is really faith.
Besides that I'm sure I could make a long list of things I think which are either commonly misinterrupted in the Koran or things I just don't like.
Ali Mahdi said:
Well because they were made for the Arabs of the time. These laws at the time were extremely progressive, but now in modern society are extremly conservative and sexist! Also in the nations which profess to be muslim the laws are most conservative towards women as men as far as I can see don't follow the Koran to the word as they force woman to do.
Also Christanity was much like Islam at one point, but Europe went threw a period of the enlightenment which slowly but surely brought europe into the modern age, with a more seculer society and a seperation of church and state. The state truly perverts the church and the church perverts the state. Seculerism and humanism may not be the end all, but it sure does help society.
As an indivdual if you chose to follow the principals of Islam, and the prophet, fine, I think you should, I follow a lot of things in the Koran and believe in much of it myself. But it should not be forced onto others by church nor state, or the comination of both. There's one thing the enlightenment philiphers taught Europe for sure is there is one funimental truth. "I think there for I am", nothing else you can really prove 100% the rest is really faith.
Besides that I'm sure I could make a long list of things I think which are either commonly misinterrupted in the Koran or things I just don't like.
Re: Islamic Law
I doubt many people would refer to the Charter of rights when making a decision about adopting a particular religion. If that were the case, then the most logical solution would be to make a religion out of the Charter of Rights itself. I think such a decision would be based rather on that person's own independent reasoning.
FiveParadox said:
I doubt many people would refer to the Charter of rights when making a decision about adopting a particular religion. If that were the case, then the most logical solution would be to make a religion out of the Charter of Rights itself. I think such a decision would be based rather on that person's own independent reasoning.
Machjo, I did not intend to imply that one should base their choice of religion on the law of the land in which one lives, or that the Charter should be tailored to fit any religion, or religions, in particular; rather, I meant that certain provisions cannot be adopted en masse and practiced publicly since, under the strictest of interpretations of the law, certain practices would not be lawful.
Re: RE: any muslim here
I won't get into that discussion here. That would be a whole other thread in itself, and probably needing to get theological and all.
I will say however taht I am well-read on the Qur'an and Islamic history, and can say that, looking at it from a historical context, Islam was well ahead of tis time. If I were living at that time, I have no doubt I would have adopted that faith.
This is meant as a complement to Islam.
Ali Mahdi said:
I won't get into that discussion here. That would be a whole other thread in itself, and probably needing to get theological and all.
I will say however taht I am well-read on the Qur'an and Islamic history, and can say that, looking at it from a historical context, Islam was well ahead of tis time. If I were living at that time, I have no doubt I would have adopted that faith.
This is meant as a complement to Islam.
Re: RE: any muslim here
Thank you for the clarification. Certainly, my religion as well as Islam do indeed require their people to abide by the law of the land wherever they might travel.
FiveParadox said:
Thank you for the clarification. Certainly, my religion as well as Islam do indeed require their people to abide by the law of the land wherever they might travel.
Show me the evidence that proves I'm wrong.
-----------------------------Dexter Sinster-----------
Dexter, I quite enjoy your posts and your latin name
of Right Left is a great pick.
Just wanted to say that again.
But you've explained a number of times why you
don't believe in any of the religions.
Show me the proof you say.
I don't think sequential logic or the random access of
analogies in our dreams and in our REM sleep reach any possible discoveries on the matter except for a leap of faith.
The minute you use the structure of science or logic
to proof any evidence on this matter, you've gone
past what science and logic can do.
We've seen scientists say there is no proof and other
scientists bedazzled by the never-ending discoveries
think such is proof.
We are reminded quite wisely that we never can know
the face of God by just about every religion.
One is the Tower of Babel, the closer we get, suddenly
all becomes baffling.
We are also reminded by both Religion and Darwin
how terrible our nature and THE NATURE of the Universe is in it's very non-human way, and so we build structures
to comfort us from this suffering of nature.
And religion in recounting stories of the horror of facing
God is similar to the horror Darwin felt when looking at
Nature, both being glimpses that the nonhuman face of god
and the non-human face of an unforgiving universe may
not be about us.
We naturally want to make it all about us.
All I'm saying is that I find it hard to renounce all
the religions or science, finding insights in both and
discounting the petty details of all of it.
Assuming there can be proof assumes there is a finite
final answer on this matter.
We're looking at questions of infinity.
-----------------------------Dexter Sinster-----------
Dexter, I quite enjoy your posts and your latin name
of Right Left is a great pick.
Just wanted to say that again.
But you've explained a number of times why you
don't believe in any of the religions.
Show me the proof you say.
I don't think sequential logic or the random access of
analogies in our dreams and in our REM sleep reach any possible discoveries on the matter except for a leap of faith.
The minute you use the structure of science or logic
to proof any evidence on this matter, you've gone
past what science and logic can do.
We've seen scientists say there is no proof and other
scientists bedazzled by the never-ending discoveries
think such is proof.
We are reminded quite wisely that we never can know
the face of God by just about every religion.
One is the Tower of Babel, the closer we get, suddenly
all becomes baffling.
We are also reminded by both Religion and Darwin
how terrible our nature and THE NATURE of the Universe is in it's very non-human way, and so we build structures
to comfort us from this suffering of nature.
And religion in recounting stories of the horror of facing
God is similar to the horror Darwin felt when looking at
Nature, both being glimpses that the nonhuman face of god
and the non-human face of an unforgiving universe may
not be about us.
We naturally want to make it all about us.
All I'm saying is that I find it hard to renounce all
the religions or science, finding insights in both and
discounting the petty details of all of it.
Assuming there can be proof assumes there is a finite
final answer on this matter.
We're looking at questions of infinity.
Dexter Sinister said:
Come on, jimmoyer...everybody in the frick'n world knows there's not a bloody thing that anyone could say to our dear friend Dexter that is going to have a smidgen of an effect on him on this issue. I think he's made that quit clear.
My 2 cents?
If you do 30 years of research and searching and you cant find the Lord..... maybe the Lords just not there.
LOL, Jay !!!
Why take the long way to cut through the crap !!!
You did 30 years of research ? Or were you still
referring to the Dexter ???
Why take the long way to cut through the crap !!!
You did 30 years of research ? Or were you still
referring to the Dexter ???
Still the best religion is Heathenism people, it got a kick from Christianity but was revived and everything.
". . . What! About God is there any doubt, the Originator of the heavens and the earth ?. . ." (14:10)
I've always wondered how anyone can see a perfect rose (or thousands of other perfect flowers), see a bumblebee (or thousands of other insects), or see a newborn baby (each one made up of perfectly constructed systems and each a miracle) - know that man cannot create even 1 of those millions and millions of perfect living things - and not know that our Creator exists.
I finally decided that there must be millions of people who do not pause, reflect, look around them, and who walk on blindly through life never wondering about how all of this beauty and perfection came to be. If anyone ever opens their eyes and hearts, they must know this was not all one huge accident...and that's just the beginning of knowing our Lord and Creator.
Two proofs for God’s existence:
The first one is that every one of us has a divine disposition (fetrat) which has the sense of religion or belief in God in it. so everyone who says that he believes but doesn’t know why, that is why. it is evident from looking throughout history that everywhere there was a group of people there was a religion, people always worshiped something. This shows that worship and religion is something innate in man.
The second one is a proof that has to do with nature. it says that all of these perfect things in the world could not have happened by chance. if one would look and reflect they would see that there is order in this world and if there is order someone had to give it order.
I can't proove to you that God exists as it's a matter of personal faith, but these are some of the conclusions that I've read and personally accept.
*Note: some of the above is taken from a post on kaysarridha.com forum regarding the "existance of God" http://kaysarridha.com/kforum/showthread.php?t=2268
I've always wondered how anyone can see a perfect rose (or thousands of other perfect flowers), see a bumblebee (or thousands of other insects), or see a newborn baby (each one made up of perfectly constructed systems and each a miracle) - know that man cannot create even 1 of those millions and millions of perfect living things - and not know that our Creator exists.
I finally decided that there must be millions of people who do not pause, reflect, look around them, and who walk on blindly through life never wondering about how all of this beauty and perfection came to be. If anyone ever opens their eyes and hearts, they must know this was not all one huge accident...and that's just the beginning of knowing our Lord and Creator.
Two proofs for God’s existence:
The first one is that every one of us has a divine disposition (fetrat) which has the sense of religion or belief in God in it. so everyone who says that he believes but doesn’t know why, that is why. it is evident from looking throughout history that everywhere there was a group of people there was a religion, people always worshiped something. This shows that worship and religion is something innate in man.
The second one is a proof that has to do with nature. it says that all of these perfect things in the world could not have happened by chance. if one would look and reflect they would see that there is order in this world and if there is order someone had to give it order.
I can't proove to you that God exists as it's a matter of personal faith, but these are some of the conclusions that I've read and personally accept.
*Note: some of the above is taken from a post on kaysarridha.com forum regarding the "existance of God" http://kaysarridha.com/kforum/showthread.php?t=2268
No offence to anyone else, but who says that God is even one god, or even in a human sense. There are some religion where the god is nature itself or animals are the gods of people.
The animals are there, people worship the animals, so God is there.
However, Asatru or Heathenism is still the best. I am actually looking into buying a sword, you know one of those huge ones.
The animals are there, people worship the animals, so God is there.
However, Asatru or Heathenism is still the best. I am actually looking into buying a sword, you know one of those huge ones.