any muslim here

[jimmoyer]

Ali Mahdi, that was a beautiful post.

That same beauty of Nature and the Universe
is also what mortified Darwin and much of the Old
Testament as it looked at that same Nature and as it
contemplated a terrible God in all its beauty.

We human beings are contemplating the idea
that maybe this pain we see in nature is not
necessary.

We contemplate a perfection in our own mind
that rids us of the inhuman suffering of nature
and perhaps we'll just keep the beauty of it.

Maybe we will still let the Queen Bee eat its young,
and maybe we still allow the predator Tiger to eat
an antelope, but we will want to evolve where
we get rid of our inefficient emotions that hurt our
productivity and our desires for a better comfortable
life insulated from the terrible beauty of Nature,
and of the creator, assuming this is all about us,
in our egocentric, species imperative way.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I've always wondered how anyone can see a perfect rose (or thousands of other perfect flowers), see a bumblebee (or thousands of other insects), or see a newborn baby (each one made up of perfectly constructed systems and each a miracle) - know that man cannot create even 1 of those millions and millions of perfect living things - and not know that our Creator exists.

But that's exactly the issue for me. That presumed perfection is an illusion. The "perfect rose" falls victim to fungal diseases (I know, I've seen it in my own garden) and dies horribly, unless its human caretakers prune and spray it carefully with various artificial poisons that nature never created. "Perfect bees" and other insects similarly succumb to diseases and predators. Newborn babies, delightful and wondrous though they are, don't all make it to adulthood. Ever been through a children's cancer ward? A humbling and horrifying experience. The fact that man can create none of these things is irrelevant; nature, or God if you prefer, doesn't always get it right either, and to me is thus not worthy of unconditional respect and devotion. It's simpler (Occam's Razor) to believe that the notion of a supposedly perfect being running all this is simply wrong: there's no god or gods taking care of things, we're on our own and personally responsible to our fellow human beings for everything we do.

That's what 30 years of serious thought and study brought me to. There's much more to it, of course, it's not really that simple, but that's a correct and accurate summary. I just do not know of any convincing reason to believe there's a benevolent creator running this show. Too much of reality sucks yellow snow for me to accept the claim that some infinitely benevolent and forgiving god is in charge of it all.

And if there is, that god is an incompetent idiot. Would a perfect being create anything less than the best of all possible worlds? Given all the suffering and pain and premature death in this world, could this possibly be it? I am unable to think so. And for those of you who'd claim that god's nature and purposes are inscrutable to mere humans, I'd say that's a retreat into mystic nonsense that renders the whole concept of god incoherent. lf we can't understand his nature or purposes, we have no basis on which to decide whether anything he does is good or bad, and more generally no way to decide if anything at all is good or bad, or even if god himself is good or bad.

I find it simpler to reject the whole concept and think about personal responsibility instead.

 

[jimmoyer]

Dexter, your post is no proof against or for the
existence of a God.

You presume that a benevolent God would not
allow all this pain and suffering in Nature.

That's human-centric, and ego-centric.

And therefore with that line of reasoning, you commit the same mistake some religions do
that it's all about us.

The Old Testament and Darwin saw the very nonhuman
face of Nature's laws and and the nonhuman face of
God if there was one that created all this.

Much of what you say is almost exactly what horrified
Darwin as he analyzed the brutal beauty of Nature.

And much of religion's writings have chronicled and observed the same horror of Nature and its nonhuman and inhumane face .

 

[NickFun]

I am not a Muslim but I've played one on TV.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: any muslim here

...you commit the same mistake some religions do, that it's all about us.

No, I don't think I've made that mistake. Isn't that the lesson of the great monotheisms of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that it *is* all about us? That's part of what what I'm not buying. It can't possibly be all about us; if it were, why would things be arranged so that life sucks so badly for so many of us?

I freely concede that there's no way to prove that god exists (or not), I'm simply saying that the weight of evidence, as I understand it, is against it.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: any muslim here

Dexter, your post is no proof against or for the
existence of a God.

You presume that a benevolent God would not
allow all this pain and suffering in Nature.

That's human-centric, and ego-centric.

And therefore with that line of reasoning, you commit the same mistake some religions do
that it's all about us.

The Old Testament and Darwin saw the very nonhuman
face of Nature's laws and and the nonhuman face of
God if there was one that created all this.

Much of what you say is almost exactly what horrified
Darwin as he analyzed the brutal beauty of Nature.

And much of religion's writings have chronicled and observed the same horror of Nature and its nonhuman and inhumane face .

Well just because I don't have the time to write out all what I feel on this topic. Besides I personally believe in god as any deist does, but not in a god which effects human life. I would tell anyone to read any of the famous philophers on this. But Jimm, I have one which you should read, if not read, at least look up his basic believes... though I would read all of it. René Descartes

Most likely the deepist humanist thinkers, very extreme in one way but a very logical speaker. To not believe in what he says is to totally take a blind leap of faith. Which we all really do and I think Descartes decided not to believe in a lot of what he said just to make things more simple in his life. Though the guy's brain must have been on fire with the amount of thought he put into his works!

 

[Jay]

But that's exactly the issue for me. That presumed perfection is an illusion. The "perfect rose" falls victim to fungal diseases (I know, I've seen it in my own garden) and dies horribly, unless its human caretakers prune and spray it carefully with various artificial poisons that nature never created. "Perfect bees" and other insects similarly succumb to diseases and predators. Newborn babies, delightful and wondrous though they are, don't all make it to adulthood. Ever been through a children's cancer ward? A humbling and horrifying experience. The fact that man can create none of these things is irrelevant; nature, or God if you prefer, doesn't always get it right either, and to me is thus not worthy of unconditional respect and devotion. It's simpler (Occam's Razor) to believe that the notion of a supposedly perfect being running all this is simply wrong: there's no god or gods taking care of things, we're on our own and personally responsible to our fellow human beings for everything we do.

It is against my better judgment to get involved in these matters with my on-line atheist friends, but....a sheep who wants to belong in the flock escapes.


Ephesians 2

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Does this help you understand the nature? God's plan Dex, isn't perfection (yet). Surely you understand that perfection is not the ingredient of life, for if perfection was the order of the day, death (or the lack of life) would be the product. Life as we know it could not exist in perfection, and the nature of the system is for us to have a vehicle to perform good works. This could not be with perfection.

Jesus was asked "why do the sick suffer (or something like that) and he answered "to show the glory of God" The glory isn't in the sickness but in the mercy shown because of it. The Glory of God.


Those who claim perfection, who say they are without sin, tend to be the greatest of the evil doers and "when the blind follow the blind, they both fall in the ditch"




Matthew 11

29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Matthew 7

7. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

8. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Forgive me Dex, but after 30 years of knocking and seeking the door isn't opening for you? I'm having a hard time believing your knocking on the right door, or actually seeking to find. I think your seeking to not find, and to discredit.


Know what I mean?

 

[Curiosity]

Why do people believe...

That mankind as we exist now is "god's image of perfection"????

I find that the height of arrogance thinking we are the last step in evolution if there is some kind of master plan by a deity.

Witness our failures. We are nowhere near perfection. And to attain perfection for the "afterlife" do we really think 70-90 years of living on this planet is going to do it?

We have barely begun the long journey into realization.

 

[Ali Mahdi]

Jersay:

A few verses from the Holy Qoraan (www.al-islam.org/quran)

21:22 - If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).

37:95 - "Do you worship what you have carved yourself?"

13:16 - "Or have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?"

If there was more than one god they would all fight for power and annihilate each other.

 

[jimmoyer]

No, I don't think I've made that mistake. Isn't that the lesson of the great monotheisms of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that it *is* all about us? That's part of what what I'm not buying. It can't possibly be all about us; if it were, why would things be arranged so that life sucks so badly for so many of us?
------------------------------Dexter Sinister----------------

It is an egocentric view, because you presume proof
against existence of a God based on whether our
suffering would disappear.

You got the part right that it may not be about us,
but the proof for or against a God cannot be based
on whether it is about us or not about us.

It's a fallacy of atheism using such faulty logic, and
that's why atheism is as illogical as it accuses religious
belief in a God to be, and so atheism itself is just
another belief system, based on whether it is about
us or not, just like most religions.


Anyway, I am impressed with the sincerety of
the posts on these threads.

And would like to respond later to some of these other
posts.

 

[nitzomoe]

i remember thomas Aquinas wrote a martha stewart esque book entitled " ten easy ways to prove gods existence" but it was incredibly difficult to read, I ended up giving up.

Im a human if that means anything at all.

 

[Cosmo]

Note: Moved this thread to appropriate section.

 

[Jersay]

Jersay:

A few verses from the Holy Qoraan (www.al-islam.org/quran)

21:22 - If there had been in them any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).

37:95 - "Do you worship what you have carved yourself?"

13:16 - "Or have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?"

If there was more than one god they would all fight for power and annihilate each other.

How about if they worked together or came from the same family. Now the main god in my religion Odin, had children who had children and they were all gods of some kind, and brothers and sisters to Odin and such.

However, they are given Human qualities so how would that work in your reasoning. Not saying anything against it, but why would gods fight against each other for power.

 

[Jersay]

Ali Mahdi is trying to convert me. :wink:

 

[nitzomoe]

hes a mahdi? the last guy who said he was the mahdi ended up in a sticky end ...

 

[Jersay]

He is a Madhi.

 

[jimmoyer]

I'd like to see more Ali Mahdi posts, and more quotes
from the Koran. It's educational even for those of us
who think we know a thing or two.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: any muslim here

I'd like to see more Ali Mahdi posts, and more quotes
from the Koran. It's educational even for those of us
who think we know a thing or two.

I would like to hear less. Or better yet, nothing.

Uncle

 

[FiveParadox]

I agree with you, jimmoyer.

That post does nothing to better your image, unclepercy.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: any muslim here

I agree with you, jimmoyer.

That post does nothing to better your image, unclepercy.

I am not here to maintain an image, and since when is it any of your concern?

Uncle