AGW Denial, The Greatest Scam in History?

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Not by itself. There's still the problem of unequal distribution of food. Education and peer pressure might work. Change it. Change is a good thing sometimes, you know. :)
Why would it get any better if reducing food availability is required to meet todays demand? Education? try and tell a farmer in South America that he can't clear his land so he can feed himself and his family because we in Nor Am already cleared too much land? Change how? Forced changed? Doesn't work so good in democracies.

Yup change is indeed good but, when change was forced on Canadian and US farmers to go industrial or lose everything where was everyone to protect the earth and the producer?

Poverty

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An example of extreme poverty in this Slum in Jakarta, Indonesia


Poverty is the lack of basic human needs, such as clean water, nutrition, health care, education, clothing and shelter, because of the inability to afford them.[1][2] This is also referred to as absolute poverty or destitution. Relative poverty is the condition of having fewer resources or less income than others within a society or country, or compared to worldwide averages. About 1.7 billion people live in absolute poverty; before the industrial revolution, poverty had mostly been the norm.[3][4]
Poverty reduction has historically been a result of economic growth as increased levels of production, such as modern industrial technology, made more wealth available for those who were otherwise too poor to afford them.[4][5] Also, investments in modernizing agriculture and increasing yields is considered the core of the antipoverty effort, given three-quarters of the world's poor are rural farmers.[6][7]

Today, economic liberalization includes extending property rights, especially to land, to the poor, and making financial services, notably savings, accessible.[8][9][10] Inefficient institutions, corruption and political instability can also discourage investment. Aid and government support in health, education and infrastructure helps growth by increasing human and physical capital.[4]


If 3/4 of Canadians were farmers once again.....
 

Tonington

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Gee all this abundance. If we eliminate waste will that stop the deaths of 40,000 a day at current rates? How do you plan on getting 400M North Americans to change their ways without strict social control within a the democratic structure? What would that do to the consumer driven Nor Am marketplace?

Those are all debatable questions. The point is, there are options, and that less food can feed more people. To state otherwise is to ignore facts.

Some options, investments in R&D to drive up efficiency in the production processes. Government efforts to reduce waste, this can be incentivized, tax credits for meeting benchmarks in improved efficiency.

Obviously the status quo isn't going to work.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Those are all debatable questions. The point is, there are options, and that less food can feed more people. To state otherwise is to ignore facts.

Some options, investments in R&D to drive up efficiency in the production processes. Government efforts to reduce waste, this can be incentivized, tax credits for meeting benchmarks in improved efficiency.

Obviously the status quo isn't going to work.
Take away just one aspect of a Monsanto package and what would happen to yields?

10%? 20%? 50%?

How much of a decrease in yield does it take to cripple the entire US grain market? Keep in mind that grain market = feed which impacts all animal foods. Even fruit and veg increase from transportation costs, labour costs to match cost increases in cost of living etc.

North American soil is useless without fertilizer. Trying to go organic is nearly impossible and no matter how you slice it organic salts are still salts all the same as mineral based fertilzers and wash into the oceans all the same.
 

Tonington

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Who do you think you're preaching to Petros? None of that changes the fact that there are huge inefficiencies in our food production system.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Who do you think you're preaching to Petros? None of that changes the fact that there are huge inefficiencies in our food production system.

Like what? Is it us who is inefficient? The 4.5 Billion others who barely or can't feed themselves? If they can't make it on a small plot of land in sub tropic climates how would a Canadian manage with a 4 month growing season? Greenhouses are extremley chemical and energy reliant not to mention far too expensive for the average Canuck.

In all the years of the so called green era, can you name one successful change or innovation that has made a viable positive impact of any kind?
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Feb 3, 2007
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Food production, distribution, storage, processing and consumption is by far the leader in alleged GHGs. You could put everyone strictly on foot, bicycles, sailboats and not even come close to making a dent in alleged numbers required to achieve the effect necesary for geo-engineering neutrality.

You can't reduce food production without reducing population.

In the past 4 months wheat has doubled in price.....LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

Alleged greenhouse gases?

I'm not getting into another silly debate with someone living in a fantasy world.
 

Tonington

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Like what?

For the last time, post-harvest losses. They are immense.

Is it us who is inefficient?
There are inefficiencies in every step of the agri-food chain. Some parts more so than others. I don't understand how someone who knows anything about farming could be ignorant of this...

This is my last post in this thread on agricultural efficiency issues. You can start a new thread on agricultural issues if you want to continue.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Can I see YOUR data?

My data? sorry I left it in my dinner jacket.

Just look at the historical data accumulated over two centuries, starting with Fourier, proceeding with Tyndall then Arrhenius. Do a little research into the work of Callendar, Revelle, Plasser and Wheeling. Carl Sagan first came to prominence by predicting almost exactly the make-up of the Venusian atmosphere based on the amount of longwave radiation detected coming from Venus and CO2s absorptive properties.

My data comes from genuine science, what are you basing your posts on?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia

Credit: NOAA/Space Weather Prediction Center(SWPC)

Riding the Solar Cycle
Oct 06, 2010


New studies are confirming the connection between Earth and the Sun.
Recent Picture of the Day articles have addressed the many issues that make understanding the Sun exceptionally difficult. There are serious dichotomies between the consensus viewpoint about solar activity and the Electric Universe viewpoint. In particular, the hypothesis popularized in Professor Don Scott's book, The Electric Sky is diametrically opposed to the thermonuclear hypothesis first described by Sir Arthur Eddington in 1926.

It is in just the past few years that planetary scientists and meteorologists have begun seeing the effects of the Sun on our climate. Now, according to scientists from the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR), analyzing sunspot records for the past 100 years has revealed a pattern of effects that have not been incorporated into climate models because they were not previously recognized in the data.

It appears that the Sun's 11 year cycle of increased and decreased output is linked to the severity of weather events, such as hurricanes or droughts. Although solar energy does vary over the course of a sunspot cycle, that variance amounts to less than one-tenth of one percent, far too little to account for the intensity seen in storm systems or the increased regions of drought.

The amplification



Riding the Solar Cycle


"A star is the focus of a galactic 'glow discharge.' The electrical energy that courses through the solar system and powers the Sun is a subtle form of energy that all of the planets intercept to some degree. Planets orbit within this discharge and intercept some of the electrical energy. Planets are minor 'electrodes' within a stellar discharge envelope. The electrical energy is delivered to stars and planets in the manner of a simple Faraday motor."

Since water is a dipolar molecule, the effect of ions as attractors for water vapor was evident. That and Wal Thornhill's information about thunderstorms acting as "leaky capacitors" leads to the observation that there are enormous fields of ions in transparent haloes around clouds:








 

Avro

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Until about 1960, measurements by scientists showed that the brightness and warmth of the sun, as seen from the Earth, was increasing. Over the same period temperature measurements of the air and sea showed that the Earth was gradually warming. It was not surprising therefore for most scientists to put two and two together and assume that it was the warming sun that was increasing the temperature of our planet.
However, between the 1960s and the present day the same solar measurements have shown that the energy from the sun is now decreasing. At the same time temperature measurements of the air and sea have shown that the Earth has continued to become warmer and warmer. This proves that it cannot be the sun; something else must be causing the Earth's temperature to rise.


So, while there is no credible science indicating that the sun is causing the observed increase in global temperature, it's the known physical properties of greenhouse gasses that provide us with the only real and measurable explanation of global warming.
 

Tonington

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The Washington Post slams Virginia Auditor General Ken Cuccinelli for his fishing expedition:
The attorney general’s logic is so tenuous as to leave only one plausible explanation: that he is on a fishing expedition designed to intimidate and suppress honest research and the free exchange of ideas upon which science and academia both depend — all because he does not like what science says about climate change. Among other things, the attorney general demands that U-Va. turn over any correspondence it may have between Mr. Mann and 39 other scientists. Mr. Mann points out that among those Mr. Cuccinelli did not list by name are the two other researchers on the African savannah research grant that the attorney general is supposedly investigating.​
 

Cobalt_Kid

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You've got to be pretty brave to do climate change research in that part of the US with the coal sector being as powerful as it is.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Sent: Friday, 08 October 2010 17:19 Hal Lewis
From: Hal Lewis, University of California, Santa Barbara
To: Curtis G. Callan, Jr., Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society
6 October 2010
Dear Curt:
When I first joined the American Physical Society sixty-seven years ago it was much smaller, much gentler, and as yet uncorrupted by the money flood (a threat against which Dwight Eisenhower warned a half-century ago).
Indeed, the choice of physics as a profession was then a guarantor of a life of poverty and abstinence—it was World War II that changed all that. The prospect of worldly gain drove few physicists. As recently as thirty-five years ago, when I chaired the first APS study of a contentious social/scientific issue, The Reactor Safety Study, though there were zealots aplenty on the outside there was no hint of inordinate pressure on us as physicists. We were therefore able to produce what I believe was and is an honest appraisal of the situation at that time. We were further enabled by the presence of an oversight committee consisting of Pief Panofsky, Vicki Weisskopf, and Hans Bethe, all towering physicists beyond reproach. I was proud of what we did in a charged atmosphere. In the end the oversight committee, in its report to the APS President, noted the complete independence in which we did the job, and predicted that the report would be attacked from both sides. What greater tribute could there be?
How different it is now. The giants no longer walk the earth, and the money flood has become the raison d’être of much physics research, the vital sustenance of much more, and it provides the support for untold numbers of professional jobs. For reasons that will soon become clear my former pride at being an APS Fellow all these years has been turned into shame, and I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society.
It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford’s book organizes the facts very well.) I don’t believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.
So what has the APS, as an organization, done in the face of this challenge? It has accepted the corruption as the norm, and gone along with it. For example:
1. About a year ago a few of us sent an e-mail on the subject to a fraction of the membership. APS ignored the issues, but the then President immediately launched a hostile investigation of where we got the e-mail addresses. In its better days, APS used to encourage discussion of important issues, and indeed the Constitution cites that as its principal purpose. No more. Everything that has been done in the last year has been designed to silence debate
2. The appallingly tendentious APS statement on Climate Change was apparently written in a hurry by a few people over lunch, and is certainly not representative of the talents of APS members as I have long known them. So a few of us petitioned the Council to reconsider it. One of the outstanding marks of (in)distinction in the Statement was the poison word incontrovertible, which describes few items in physics, certainly not this one. In response APS appointed a secret committee that never met, never troubled to speak to any skeptics, yet endorsed the Statement in its entirety. (They did admit that the tone was a bit strong, but amazingly kept the poison word incontrovertible to describe the evidence, a position supported by no one.) In the end, the Council kept the original statement, word for word, but approved a far longer “explanatory” screed, admitting that there were uncertainties, but brushing them aside to give blanket approval to the original. The original Statement, which still stands as the APS position, also contains what I consider pompous and asinine advice to all world governments, as if the APS were master of the universe. It is not, and I am embarrassed that our leaders seem to think it is. This is not fun and games, these are serious matters involving vast fractions of our national substance, and the reputation of the Society as a scientific society is at stake.
3. In the interim the ClimateGate scandal broke into the news, and the machinations of the principal alarmists were revealed to the world. It was a fraud on a scale I have never seen, and I lack the words to describe its enormity. Effect on the APS position: none. None at all. This is not science; other forces are at work.
4. So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation. I might note that it was not easy to collect the signatures, since you denied us the use of the APS membership list. We conformed in every way with the requirements of the APS Constitution, and described in great detail what we had in mind—simply to bring the subject into the open.
5. To our amazement, Constitution be damned, you declined to accept our petition, but instead used your own control of the mailing list to run a poll on the members’ interest in a TG on Climate and the Environment. You did ask the members if they would sign a petition to form a TG on your yet-to-be-defined subject, but provided no petition, and got lots of affirmative responses. (If you had asked about sex you would have gotten more expressions of interest.) There was of course no such petition or proposal, and you have now dropped the Environment part, so the whole matter is moot. (Any lawyer will tell you that you cannot collect signatures on a vague petition, and then fill in whatever you like.) The entire purpose of this exercise was to avoid your constitutional responsibility to take our petition to the Council.
6. As of now you have formed still another secret and stacked committee to organize your own TG, simply ignoring our lawful petition.
APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?
I do feel the need to add one note, and this is conjecture, since it is always risky to discuss other people’s motives. This scheming at APS HQ is so bizarre that there cannot be a simple explanation for it. Some have held that the physicists of today are not as smart as they used to be, but I don’t think that is an issue. I think it is the money, exactly what Eisenhower warned about a half-century ago. There are indeed trillions of dollars involved, to say nothing of the fame and glory (and frequent trips to exotic islands) that go with being a member of the club. Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I’m not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.
I want no part of it, so please accept my resignation. APS no longer represents me, but I hope we are still friends.
Hal
==========================================================
Harold Lewis is Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, former Chairman; Former member Defense Science Board, chmn of Technology panel; Chairman DSB study on Nuclear Winter; Former member Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards; Former member, President’s Nuclear Safety Oversight Committee; Chairman APS study on Nuclear Reactor Safety Chairman Risk Assessment Review Group; Co-founder and former Chairman of JASON; Former member USAF Scientific Advisory Board; Served in US Navy in WW II; books: Technological Risk (about, surprise, technological risk) and Why Flip a Coin (about decision making)

Until about 1960, measurements by scientists showed that the brightness and warmth of the sun, as seen from the Earth, was increasing. Over the same period temperature measurements of the air and sea showed that the Earth was gradually warming. It was not surprising therefore for most scientists to put two and two together and assume that it was the warming sun that was increasing the temperature of our planet.
However, between the 1960s and the present day the same solar measurements have shown that the energy from the sun is now decreasing. At the same time temperature measurements of the air and sea have shown that the Earth has continued to become warmer and warmer. This proves that it cannot be the sun; something else must be causing the Earth's temperature to rise.


So, while there is no credible science indicating that the sun is causing the observed increase in global temperature, it's the known physical properties of greenhouse gasses that provide us with the only real and measurable explanation of global warming.
There are no greenhouse gases. Please review previous posts expressly debunking this lunatic idea of greenhouse gas. It is a physical impossibility. You have obviously bought a Norwegian blue parrot, not for the first time I wager.
 

Tonington

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There are no greenhouse gases.

Right, only optically opaque gases to specific bandwidths of radiated energy. Gases whose covalent bonds resonate when struck by the energy at these specific bandwidths, and emit that energy back out so as to return to it's unexcited state.
 

Avro

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Hockey Stick Basher Wegman Under Investigation

Is Talk of Lawsuit A Trick to Hide His Decline?

George Mason University has confirmed that it is investigating its Professor Edward Wegman, the statistician who was point man in the 2006 political attack on the so-called "hockey stick" graph.
Wegman, who was chair of the National Academy of Sciences’ (NAS) Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics, was tapped in '06 by Republican representatives Joe Barton and Ed Whitfield to assemble a so-called "expert panel" to critique the famous hockey stick, a graph illustrating a thousand-year temperature record as reconstructed by climate scientists Michael Mann, Raymond Bradley and Malcolm Hughes. But Silicon Valley entrepreneur John Mashey has since demonstrated that, rather than convene a group of experts, Wegman tapped a couple of grad students and together they produced a report that was generously plagiarized from Bradley's own work and then twisted - or just misrepresented - to appear to undermine the hockey stick and its creators.
Now that the authorities are actually looking into this issue, Wegman himself seems to be suggesting that the charges against him are actionable. He told USA Today that "Some litigation is under way."
Well, none as it would apply to Mashey, who says he hasn't heard a peep from Wegman - or from anybody's lawyers - in response to his devastating critique.
Word is that that this is also just the first of several investigations in the offing. It's clear enough from Barton and Whitfield's own positions that they were hoping Wegman could wreck a few scientific reputations. As every new work seems to reaffirm the science behind the Mann, Bradley, Hughes hockey stick, it appears the reputation most at risk now is Wegman's own.
 

Avro

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Astounding Interview with “Oregon Petition” Nutjob – Art Robinson




Remember that creepy old guy in your neighborhood that had a lot of guns and was always yelling at you to keep off the grass? Or maybe you can picture the archetypical survivalist freak in a bad science fiction movie? (Tremors comes to mind.)

Now you can meet that person in real life. My video, “32000 Scientists”, is one of my most popular, because it addresses the widely circulated meme about a petition of ”scientists” who purportedly deny the reality of climate change.

YouTube - 32000 Scientists

The originator of the bogus petition is Art Robinson, an entrepreneur serving the needs of the paranoid, right wing, conspiracy theorist and survivalist subculture from his lair in rural Oregon. Mr Robinson is now running for Congress as a Republican Tea Party candidate. Last week, Rachel Maddow featured an interview with Mr Robinson in full-on climate conspiracy crazy mode.
Hilarity ensued.

The Maddow interview is here in two parts.


YouTube - ART ROBINSON vs RACHEL MADDOW pt.1
YouTube - ART ROBINSON vs RACHEL MADDOW pt.2
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Feb 3, 2007
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Climate change denial is based on magical thinking, it doesn't matter how many petitions or unreviewed papers the denial machine puts out attacking Global Warming, it still doesn't counter the science that has been building for over two centuries on the effects of pouring ever increasing amounts of GHGs into the atmosphere.