After 9-11: Can the West Defeat Radical Islam?

[Ocean Breeze]

How doers this sound? I am Canadian and therefore I am not required to particpate in the endless historical replays and the knee-jerk patriotism that so characterize the USA.

exactly.


IF the US wants to do the exaggerated , dramatized and over sensationlized "memorializing " of Canadians too......fine. Let them. That does not mean that Canada does not remember ......except in a more dignified , quiet mannered way that is not an embarrassment to the surviviors.

.....What are americans really memorializing?? The dead or one of the worst crimes committed in the decade. ?? By sensationalizing it that way........the US is also giving terrorism a lot of attention , which is likely to inspire even more anger at the US that will translate into terror acts of one kind or another.

again: WHO BENEFITS??? (from all the theater that has become 9-11 remembering ) It is not the dead. They could care less. Not sure the survivors want the wounds torn open that way each year so the US can create an image of victimhood for the world to see. It does not help to heal .... and just draws attention to the terror crime itself.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Did you not say "required to participate"? There is a big difference between participating and being "required" to participate.



That is your choice. We do it differently down here.




Where is the manipulation? What is the public being manipulated to do?



I agree there. The commemorative plates and coins to me are foolish. But that is my opinion. If someone wants to buy a coin with the WTC on it that is their choice.

1. I expect any US politician who refused to show up any the 911 ceremony when invited would certainly be politically dead in the water. Also I noticed that many US sporting events (if not all) had a 911 ceremonies. I don't expect the fans that were at the game were given much choice. I also do not doubt for a second that many US businesses and educational establishments also had 911
ceremonies. Forced participation - maybe not but how many people would be likely to walk out?

2. This is a Canadian forum - don't expect every member here to share your knee-jerk patriotism. I often post to the Huffington Post, but when I do I keep in mind that I am talking to an audience of composed primarily of Americans and phrase my comments
accordingly.

3. The lead up to the 911 anniversary was splattered across every US media source. If you don't think the media capable of manipulating public sentiment to serve its own commercial purposes then you are living in a dreamworld.

 

[EagleSmack]

1. I expect any US politician who refused to show up any the 911 ceremony when invited would certainly be politically dead in the water. Also I noticed that many US sporting events (if not all) had a 911 ceremonies. I don't expect the fans that were at the game were given much choice. I also do not doubt for a second that many US businesses and educational establishments also had 911
ceremonies. Forced participation - maybe not but how many people would be likely to walk out?

Oh and I am sure so many politicians would want to refuse to attend a ceremony honoring those that lost their lives on 9/11. I am also sure that so many people at the Sporting events wanted to walk out.

But again, you said "required" to attend... and now you are backing off or as we say here from time to time, moving the goal posts.

2. This is a Canadian forum - don't expect every member here to share your knee-jerk patriotism. I often post to the Huffington Post, but when I do I keep in mind that I am talking to an audience of composed primarily of Americans and phrase my comments
accordingly.

Knee jerk patriotism, please spare me.

I know this is a Canadian forum and I have been here for quite some time. Probably longer than you have and I have no intention of phrasing my comments so as not to offend/challenge you or anyone.

3. The lead up to the 911 anniversary was splattered across every US media source. If you don't think the media capable of manipulating public sentiment to serve its own commercial purposes then you are living in a dreamworld.

But where was the manipulation? How and why would the media manipulate the public sentiment to serve it's own commercial purposes? Commercial purposes...that is just ridiculous.

exactly.


IF the US wants to do the exaggerated , dramatized and over sensationlized "memorializing " of Canadians too......fine. Let them. That does not mean that Canada does not remember ......except in a more dignified , quiet mannered way that is not an embarrassment to the surviviors.

The person you are addressing said "Time to put 9/11 behind us." Is that what you consider a more dignified and quiet manner?

Well, well, well... what do we have here?


InsideToronto Article: Community leaders attend 9/11 memorial service


Quebecers mark 9/11 anniversary - Montreal - CBC News


For many, 9/11 feels like yesterday


Gander on 9/11 told 'you were the best of us' - Canada - CBC News

 

[In Between Man]

Do we have the ability, the determination, the will to win the war brought to our doorstep so dramatically ten years ago?

WHAT WE SHOULD DO: Short of another crusade, it's going to take a loud, unified voice WITH the "moderate" Muslims community as a whole to speak out against terrorist attacks EVERY TIME. As well as completely EXPUNGING all references to killing non-believers from the Quran. It's never going to happen.

WHAT WE CAN DO: What we can do here in the west is stop all Muslim immigration. The majority of Canadians agree that Islam is irreconcilable with the West and our standard of freedom. Immigration is for people who are capable and willing to live side by side with people of all viewpoints, to be free to give and receive criticism without violence. And with all respect to the peaceful Muslims that live right here in my own neighborhood, their fellow followers are not proving Islam is a religion of peace, in fact their proving it to be a supremacist religious ideology(as evidenced by the current state of affairs in England and France, not just terrorism) - and the "moderates" are virtually silent about it.

WHAT WILL WE PROBABLY DO: What I predict will happen however is that the Muslim population in Canada is going to be allowed to balloon and and we'll hear grumblings for changing laws to accommodate Sharia turn into outright demands. All the while there will be pressure, mostly on Christians, to "pray side by side" in the name of "tolerance". What a load of rubbish! And there will probably be louder calls to stop criticizing Islam from all peoples as evidenced by the recent meeting on religion where the Dalai Lama was duped into endorsing the fundamental Islamic principle(no criticizing Islam itself). More rubbish!

I'd like to submit two pieces. The first is Tarek Fatah, probably the most sensible Muslim you'll hear speak, confirming PM Harper's statement that Islamization of the West is indeed a threat:

Islamic Terrorists #1 Threat to Canada- PM Harper - YouTube

The second piece I would like to submit is Ronald Regan giving us advice on how to deal with Islamic extremism:

Ronald Reagan on Appeasement - YouTube

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Would someone please explain how they would go about identifying "radical" Islam from "moderate" (reasonable) Islam??

Would someone also explain how they would go about defeating an ideology??

the entire premise is irrational. just as it is irrational to keep slaughtering people on such a premise, when the more you slaughter, the more angry they become and the more radicalized they become.

Why give them even more reasons to radicalize against the west or whatever their ongoing beef is. All these wars have done is feed the terrorist trend. Their response is just as the US response has been : fight back. All you are doing is creating a cycle of violence that is barbaric and primitive. Both parties are behaving on a primitive response basis.

Unless this is politically beneficial for either party or both.......it is an exercise in futility.

 

[EagleSmack]

Really OB? After starting the biggest, boldest Islamphobe thread I've ever seen.

 

[Omicron]

Do we have the ability, the determination, the will to win the war brought to our doorstep so dramatically ten years ago?

I admit that I increasingly doubt it......western civilization, the absolute apex of human development, is too damn spoiled, lazy and full of narcissistic guilt to get down in the mud and kick Islamist arse..........we can't even really figure out that we have a problem!!!!!

The best piece I have read yet on the subject:



Disoriented :: Clifford May

It's because the f-ckhole MBA dorks got seduced by a situation which we're going to trade with God for eternal life after our bodies die.


From His point of view we are single cells like we would wonder how to adapt to ourselves if we had the ability to soak in attacking single cell organisms.

LDS and good Catholics and lots of good others are correct to wonder about what is it like if you get saved to be kept going after your body is dead,

 

[captain morgan]

Would someone please explain how they would go about identifying "radical" Islam from "moderate" (reasonable) Islam??

Perhaps it's time that the Muslim community took a stand and worked to assist in identifying these groups. Absent this kind of cooperative endeavor, you can not blame a society for their assumptions.

Would someone also explain how they would go about defeating an ideology??

the entire premise is irrational. just as it is irrational to keep slaughtering people on such a premise, when the more you slaughter, the more angry they become and the more radicalized they become.

Why give them even more reasons to radicalize against the west or whatever their ongoing beef is. All these wars have done is feed the terrorist trend. Their response is just as the US response has been : fight back. All you are doing is creating a cycle of violence that is barbaric and primitive. Both parties are behaving on a primitive response basis.

Unless this is politically beneficial for either party or both.......it is an exercise in futility.

2 steps:

1. Cut off the money and isolate the groups/regions/factions that promote this discord.
2. Have the UN/NATO withdraw from acting as the global cops, let those societies in conflict hash it out themselves. Further, rather than sending military into these questionable regimes, cut off all aid and trad. That should be the action that the global community engages rather than occupying these areas.

You'll see results pretty quick when the factions run out of cash to fund their goals. In the meantime, there will be a lot of human loss, but in the end, almost every advanced nation has had to go down this road on their own.

Bottom line: If 'radical' Islam is upset as to the influence of the West, then give 'em exactly what they want with the understanding that the good is also retracted with the bad.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Oh and I am sure so many politicians would want to refuse to attend a ceremony honoring those that lost their lives on 9/11. I am also sure that so many people at the Sporting events wanted to walk out.

But again, you said "required" to attend... and now you are backing off or as we say here from time to time, moving the goal posts.

No moving goal posts - I said required and I meant required. Any politician invited to the ceremony would not dare refuse. And I expect given the fact that US fans have been known to attack fans supporting another team I would hate to think what they would do to someone at a sporting event who refused to participate.

I know this is a Canadian forum and I have been here for quite some time. Probably longer than you have and I have no intention of phrasing my comments so as not to offend/challenge you or anyone.

Then you should not be surprised when you post something and many do not agree with your viewpoint.

But where was the manipulation? How and why would the media manipulate the public sentiment to serve it's own commercial purposes? Commercial purposes...that is just ridiculous.

If you don't understand that hyping the 911 disaster event for several weeks before its anniversary is not manipulation then you show a rather poor understanding of the power of the media.

The person you are addressing said "Time to put 9/11 behind us." Is that what you consider a more dignified and quiet manner?

Well, well, well... what do we have here?


InsideToronto Article: Community leaders attend 9/11 memorial service


Quebecers mark 9/11 anniversary - Montreal - CBC News


For many, 9/11 feels like yesterday


Gander on 9/11 told 'you were the best of us' - Canada - CBC News

So what? The attention paid to the event in Canada did not begin to approach the overblown nonsense surrounding the 911 anniversary in the US. And I suspect very strongly that if the US media had not hyped to event to the max most Canadians would not even have noticed it.

In any case it was you who objected to my comment agreeing with Mentalfloss concerning 911 - he was a bit blunter than I was - he called it "crap." I would not go quite that far, but I am thoroughly tired of an incident that seems to do little more than rake over old wounds and once again increases animosity toward Muslims both abroad in in the US. 911 happened - it cannot be changed - get over it. And now that you and I have taken the original topic so far off course that we are now headed for the Moon I am finished with it. This is my last post in this thread.

 

[captain morgan]

The attention paid to the event in Canada did not begin to approach the overblown nonsense surrounding the 911 anniversary in the US. And I suspect very strongly that if the US media had not hyped to event to the max most Canadians would not even have noticed it.

Canada has a long tradition of doing exactly that relative to Remembrance Day and despite the contemporary interpretation includes all of the conflicts that Canada has been involved with, WW I is the biggest focus.

That said, isn't it akin to the pot calling the kettle black on this issue?

 

[MHz]

1. Have the UN/NATO withdraw from acting as the global cops, let those societies in conflict hash it out themselves.

Sort of like Iran was doing before the US inspired coup in 1953 and Afghanistan before the CIA invaded in '79?

[SIZE=-1]Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
[/SIZE]http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

 

[EagleSmack]

No moving goal posts - I said required and I meant required.

Definition

"to call on authoritatively; order or enjoin to do something: to require an agent to account for money spent. "

Ok then... lets move on!

Any politician invited to the ceremony would not dare refuse.

Are they required? Is attending a ceremony mandatory? Are they ordered to attend as you have said.

This is your very own Prime Minister in NYC on the 9/11 Anniversary shaking the hands of Canadian Police Officers. I guess each Canadian cop was required to attend or manipulated by the US Media.

And I expect given the fact that US fans have been known to attack fans supporting another team

Oh please don't be so arrogant and blind. Vancouver fans pounded the crap out of each other and Bruins fans up there... then they burned their city.

From Vancouver...

Do you think he's taking a nap?

I would hate to think what they would do to someone at a sporting event who refused to participate.

Participate in what... a moment of silence? Hearing a few words honoring those that died on 9/11? Oh the horror.

Then you should not be surprised when you post something and many do not agree with your viewpoint.

Is this your first week in the forum Bar?

If you don't understand that hyping the 911 disaster event for several weeks before its anniversary is not manipulation then you show a rather poor understanding of the power of the media.

You can't answer what they were manipulating and for what reason can you?

So what? The attention paid to the event in Canada did not begin to approach the overblown nonsense surrounding the 911 anniversary in the US.

Gee... I wonder why!

Besides... those were just the first few links. I could have posted many more of the 9/11 Ceremonies that were across Canada on the anniversary.

And I suspect very strongly that if the US media had not hyped to event to the max most Canadians would not even have noticed it.

So the US media forced Canadians to have 9/11 ceremonies all over Caanda?

Seriously?

In any case it was you who objected to my comment agreeing with Mentalfloss concerning 911 - he was a bit blunter than I was - he called it "crap." I would not go quite that far, but I am thoroughly tired of an incident that seems to do little more than rake over old wounds and once again increases animosity toward Muslims both abroad in in the US. 911 happened - it cannot be changed - get over it.

Well as I said... we will keep honoring the Canadians that died down here and we will keep reading their names off every year so you can go on and forget.

And now that you and I have taken the original topic so far off course that we are now headed for the Moon I am finished with it. This is my last post in this thread.

Probably a good idea for you to retreat.

 

[captain morgan]

[SIZE=-1]Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?[/SIZE]

Lemme guess.... Had the US NOT provided that covert assistance, you'd be screaming that the USA had a responsibility to do so?

Regardless, Afghanistan is not the central player in the terrorism game other than it being the play ground for the training exercises and a base of OPs (allegedly).

Here's a Q for you.. Where does the $$ come from to buy the arms and train the individuals?.. What effect do you think that cutting-off the $$ via trade sanctions to those nations that propagate the terrorism?.. Do you have the stomach to let these countries hash it out themselves or will you demand intervention when the body count rises?
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]

 

[MHz]

.. Do you have the stomach to let these countries hash it out themselves or will you demand intervention when the body count rises?

More than this? Squat has been done in the cases listed below but you now suddenly have some some sort of moral indignation?.

Iran’s expansionist plans???
Since the 1979 Iranian revolution and the downfall of the US Puppet Ruler the Shah, Iran has been an Islamic state. In that interval of time, 1979 to the present, Iran has not invaded anyone. Not once. People of all religions live in peace in Iran, even Jews, who find life so comfortable in Iran they refused an offer by the government of Israel to emigrate!
In the same period of time, Israel, a self-declared Jewish state, attacked Iraq in 1981, bombing the power station at Osirik, claiming it was a clandestine weapons factory. Subsequent examination of the ruins following the 2003 invasion proved Israel had lied. In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon. This led to the Massacres at Sabra and Shatilla. In February 2003 Israel staged incursions into Gaza and Nablus. In September 2007 Israel bombed Syria, again insisting they were destroying a clandestine weapons laboratory. Again there was no evidence to support Israel's claims. In 2006, Israel attacked Lebanon, killing 1200, mostly civilians, several UN observers, and littering the landscape with land mines on their way out. In February 2008 Israel again raided Gaza, killing over 100. HAMAS agreed to a cease fire and kept it for 6 months until November 4, when Israel again attacked without warning, killing 6 HAMAS members, and launching operation CAST LEAD. 1300 Gazans, mostly civilians, were killed. Israel lost 13 soldiers. Violations of international law included the use of White Phosphorus incendiary bombs against civilians and non-military targets. The United Nations investigated, but Israel refused to cooperate. In May 2010, Israel attacked an international aid flotilla bringing food and medical supplies to Gaza in international waters. 9 people were murdered including an American from New York.
In the same period of time, the United States, officially a secular nation but predominantly Christian, attacked El Salvador (1980), Libya (1981), Sinai (1982), Lebanon (1982 1983), Egypt (1983), Grenada (1983), Honduras (1983), Chad (1983), Persian Gulf (1984), Libya (1986) , Bolivia (1986), Iran (1987), Persian Gulf (1987), Kuwait (1987), Iran (1988), Honduras (1988), Panama (1988), Libya (1989), Panama (1989), Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru (1989), Philippines (1989), Panama (1989-1990), Liberia (1990), Saudi Arabia (1990), Iraq (1991), Zaire (1991), Sierra Leone (1992), Somalia (1992), Bosnia-Herzegovina (1993 to present), Macedonia (1993), Haiti (1994), Macedonia (1994), Bosnia (1995), Liberia (1996), Central African Republic (1996), Albania (1997), Congo/Gabon (1997), Sierra Leon (1997), Cambodia (1997), Iraq (1998), Guinea/Bissau (1998), Kenya/Tanzania (1998 to 1999), Afghanistan/Sudan (1998), Liberia (1998), East Timor (1999), Serbia (1999), Sierra Leon (2000), Yemen (2000), East Timor (2000), Afghanistan (2001 to present), Yemen (2002), Philippines (2002) , Cote d'Ivoire (2002), Iraq (2003 to present), Liberia (2003), Georgia/Djibouti (2003), Haiti (2004), Georgia/Djibouti/Kenya/Ethiopia/Yemen/Eritrea War on Terror (2004), Pakistan drone attacks (2004 to present), Somalia (2007), South Ossetia/Georgia (2008), Syria (2008), Yemen (2009), Haiti (2010), etc. etc. etc. etc.
So, who is the danger to world peace?
WHAT REALLY HAPPENED | The History The US Government HOPES You Never Learn!

As for the arms, who is the biggest supplier of weapons, didn't the US just lose track of about 16 tons of weapons grade uranium and the CIA is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world, ie the School of America trained all the death squard thar roamed (and still do) all Latin American countries)

 

[captain morgan]

More than this? Squat has been done in the cases listed below but you now suddenly have some some sort of moral indignation?.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED | The History The US Government HOPES You Never Learn!

You still aren't answering my question.

Nice article by the way, I especially like the reference to the US "attacking/invading" 1/2 of the nations on the globe. But just for sh*ts and giggles, how about you list the number of countries that your terrorist buddies have worked.

As for the arms, who is the biggest supplier of weapons

China and Russia come to mind... How many "Freedom Fighters" do you see using M-16's?

 

[MHz]

My what?

 

[captain morgan]

Q-u-e-s-t-i-o-n

 

[MHz]

Who do you think supplies the money to buy the (more reliable)rifles?
Again, my what??

 

[captain morgan]

Who do you think supplies the money to buy the (more reliable)rifles?
Again, my what??

That's one of the questions that I asked.

If you don't want to answer or can't answer, that's fine - just don't play this silly game, OK?

 

[MHz]

What terrorist buddies would that be?

The financing comes from the ones who fight the fake wars and (for once) I would love to see the Rothschild bank demand the US pay up on all that usury instead of them giving the US/Britain/ect unlimited credit as long as they do their bidding.

If China and Russia were doing the supplying then M-16's are the weapons they would have, that is how frame-ups work. LMAO