A very bad idea, the 2011 census long form will be voluntary

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
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48
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Most Canadians don't know more than the per cent sign for a statistic, let alone what a sampling bias is, what a representative sample is, and why randomization is key.

Don't sell your fellow Canadians short. I think plenty of them understand they just aren't so naive as you.

Also it is funny to assume that the less wealthy are less likely to complete a census because of some mental deficiancy on their part since they also carry the greatest tax burden and are the most familiar with being f**ked by government - it seems perfectly sensible to me they would keep their cards close.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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LMAO... well it's a good thing most Canadians are more sensible than you two ;-)
Yeah, it's only the really inane ones that can see the probable dismaying implications of this stupidity. Sad.

Don't sell your fellow Canadians short. I think plenty of them understand they just aren't so naive as you.

Also it is funny to assume that the less wealthy are less likely to complete a census because of some mental deficiancy on their part since they also carry the greatest tax burden and are the most familiar with being f**ked by government - it seems perfectly sensible to me they would keep their cards close.
Great. So that leaves the more wealthy as the biggest supplier of info to the gov't.
Is it just me and Ton, or does anyone else's spideysense start clanging and flashing lights about this idea?

We don't really never the government in my opinion. Anarchy is the correct way of living.
Then you wouldn't mind being arrested and jailed for looking at a cop wrong. Or raped by a gang because you looked like a pretty boy. Or have your mail sent to some place other than where you wanted it to go. Or have your kid mowed down by some chronically drunk driver.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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I wouldn't be arrested for stupid petty ****, because corrupt pigs wouldn't exist without a government.

Gang rape? I'm pretty sure that goes on anyway, everyday.

If I had a child and he/she was killed by a drunk driver, we'd take up our own form of justice. there would be no ****ty failing court system where murderer is allowed to go free in 5-10 years with good behaviour.
roflmao Yeah right. And if the DD was a member of some gang, you'd have your raped butt spanked hard.
Some guy bigger than you would kick you out of your house so he could use it.
You have asthma? You need meds to control it? Without gov't the standards of quality would drop like lead balloons. You need a medical procedure? Same thing. Gov't standards make sure ORs are kept clean.

How old are you?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Also it is funny to assume that the less wealthy are less likely to complete a census because of some mental deficiancy on their part

Nobody ever said it is a mental deficiency. It is what it is, lower income and lower education individuals are less likely to respond to surveys about income and education. It's also true that response rates are inversely correlated for obesity and surveys related to obesity.

It's not a mental deficiency, it's called being human.

since they also carry the greatest tax burden and are the most familiar with being f**ked by government - it seems perfectly sensible to me they would keep their cards close.
And the groups out there who bring the fight to the government when the government plans new legislation which will adversely affect the poor will have poor quality data.

So, take the HST in BC. If the population data shows that there will be a negative impact on low income earners, then that's what it shows. If your census data isn't accurately representing the lower income earners, then an analysis may show that there is no harm at all.

This is why I called this move by Ottawa perverse. The groups which feel the impact of legislation the most will be the groups who are also least represented accurately by the census data, which makes the jobs of those who fight for the poor much more difficult.

The classic example of under-representation sampling bias is a survey in 1936 which predicted Alfred Landon would beat Franklin Roosevelt. The survey was based on convenience for the reporting agency (Literary Digest) and it under-represented the poorest voters, who tended to vote Democrat.

The survey was based on car and telephone ownership, which of course in 1936 was heavily biased towards the rich. The results of the election were staggering, Landon was crushed, receiving only 36% of the popular vote, to Roosevelt's 61%.

The difference is, the correct projection of voter intention into elections doesn't have the impact that fiscal policy does on citizens.

I'll hammer this point repeatedly, it's poor quality data that will be the result if Minister Clement and Harper's Cabinet get their wish here.
 
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AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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I'll hammer this point repeatedly, it's poor quality data that will be the result if Minister Clement and Harper's Cabinet get their wish here.
.... and that will leave loads of room for intentional and unintentional abuse of the info.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
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Hhahahahahaaha, you couldn't survive longer than 5 minutes off of the governments teat
How would you know?

How old are you?

What powers your computer? What cleans your water? Who makes sure your food is safe to eat? Who makes sure your house is safe to live in? Who makes sure your clothes don't poison you?

For someone who snivels about gov't you probably use a lot of things that gov't has had a hand in developing.
 
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Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
So lets lay out the argument as it stands so far:

The government made the long census voluntary because it wants bad information.

It wants bad information so it can do what it wants.

If the government had good information it would have to make good decisions.

Therefore you are in favor of good information.

LMAO

wow...
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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So lets lay out the argument as it stands so far:

The government made the long census voluntary because it wants bad information.

No, because they can point at this issue in an election to say they addressed privacy concerns, despite there being not a single instance where personally identifiable census data has been divulged to a third party. I don't think they really care about having the right information.

It wants bad information so it can do what it wants.
No, the government simply doesn't care about quality data. If they did, they wouldn't be introducing a sampling bias into the coolection of the data they use.

If the government had good information it would have to make good decisions.
Complete strawman. If government watch dogs have good information, they can bull **** when the government tries to pull the wool over the eyes of folks like you.

Therefore you are in favor of good information.
I am in favour of good information that doesn't violate privacy concerns. Show me legitimate privacy concerns regarding the use of census data, and I'll reconsider how I feel about this.

LMAO

wow...
Yes, I've been laughing at these posts for a while now. Is your ironic position purposeful? The government is the one changing our data, and you think I'm trusting because I don't believe the government's side of the story in this. I'm too trusting because I ... can cite reasons why what the government is telling you is untrue.

LMAO

You're a funny guy!
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Michael R. Veall
Department of Economics, McMaster University
Hamilton ON L8S 4M4
July 6, 2010​
The Honourable Tony Clement, P.C., M.P.
Minister of Industry
House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0A6
minister.industry@ic.gc.ca


Dear Minister Clement,

The Executive Council of the Canadian Economics Association has asked me to write to you to express its concerns at reports that you have decided to replace the mandatory long form in the Census with a voluntary survey.

Important and reliable data have been collected by the Census long form for over a century: for example occupation and school attendance were first collected in 1871, wages and salaries in 1901, working weeks in 1911 and highest level of schooling and the number of rooms in dwellings in 1941. The Census is thus a precious record of our progress as a nation. The proposed change jeopardizes this legacy by risking the quality of the data. For example, it may be impossible to determine whether a new trend in the 2011 data is the consequence of real change or just the different method of collection. The 2011 Census could be costly failure.

We understand that this is a complex issue given the participation resistance from some individuals. (We address this in the attached memo.) But the purpose of the Census is to ensure that public policy is based on the best possible knowledge. Many firms also depend upon the reliable, detailed, small area data provided by the census long form. Therefore, we ask that there be an opportunity for consultation, open to both users and the general public. The discussions would seek to balance the benefits of the data with privacy concerns. If there is inadequate time for such consultation, our view is that the risk of losing the embedded value in the Census is too great, and that the change should be delayed. A number of intermediate measures are possible, including running the new survey in parallel on a smaller sample as a test.

Making this change without consultation will damage Statistics Canada’s currently outstanding reputation inside and outside of Canada and will leave Canada with a Census that is significantly less useful than those of the countries that Canada compares itself against. Please provide an opportunity for consultation. The Canadian Economics Association would be pleased to assist in any way it can.

Sincerely yours,

Michael R. Veall, President-Elect, Canadian Economics Association

cc/ Office of the Prime Minister,
Dr. Munir Sheikh, Chief Statistician of Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is the memo referred to in the letter.

Eliminating the Mandatory Census Long Form: Why It is Important to Consult
Canadian Economics Association Executive Council, July, 2010

1. We understand that the reason for the elimination of the mandatory long form was objection from those who did not wish to participate. Some such objections are principled (although there are principled objections to many requirements of modern society, such as paying taxes). But we are concerned that some resistance has been fuelled by untruths that Statistics Canada does not respect data confidentiality and that serious penalties for nonparticipation are widespread. Indeed, perhaps the potential fine should be reduced and the possibility of a jail sentence should be eliminated given that these just give targets for those who wish to register protest. Perhaps also the penalties for confidentiality breech could be increased.

2. One reason to keep the Census completely mandatory is that it provides Statistics Canada with the internal mandate to ensure everyone is included. Without the mandatory provision, data for the lower and higher income groups in particular tend to become unreliable, as there is often significant underreporting*. This is a huge information gap. If we miss the top end, we won’t know much about those who pay the most taxes and make some of the most important contributions to our society. But perhaps missing the bottom end of the income distribution is even more important. This includes some of the most vulnerable. They tend to have disproportionate interaction with government: with the health care system, the criminal justice system, the immigration system and the social assistance system. How can we know how policies are working if we do not have a data tool for use in assessment? Crucially, the long form also provides fine geographical detail for local policy analysis including things like city, school and hospital planning, as well as for private sector use. This is at risk.

3. Estimates from Statistics Canada surveys such as the Labour Force Survey depend upon information from the Census. The data quality issues are broader than just the Census.

4. We understand the privacy concerns. But much of the information is already reported to various levels of government (e.g. local property tax assessors, the Canada Revenue Agency). However, the Census collects the data consistently and at once, so that it is possible to examine relationships between variables such as education and income.

5. A consultation would allow the costs and benefits of potential changes to be considered. As our letter emphasizes, the current Census data is an asset of tremendous value because it allows long-term analysis of Canadian trends and can be compared internationally to the Census of the United States and to those of other countries. If this change goes through, it is possible much of the value will be lost. Certainly if this change is made without consultation, the damage to Statistics Canada’s reputation nationally and internationally will be significant: the perception will be that there was no weight given to data quality in the decision making process.

* Frenette, Marc, David A. Green and Garnett Picot (2004), “Rising income inequality in the 1990s: An exploration of three data sources,” Statistics Canada, Analytical Studies Research Paper Series, No. 219 (pdf).
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
141
63
Backwater, Ontario.
It's harder to obfuscate with good quality data. If the data confirms what is in reality obfuscation, then who would know the difference?


8OYep, what he said:

Can we kiss Stats Can goodbye in a few years, to be replaced by the "Dept. of Whatever WE Say" ??

Both the Cons and the Libs would love this.

:canada:
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Seriously, we will lose a great asset. We would be the only developed nation with a non-census census....trying to buy votes with privacy concerns, how about they give us access to those emails from constituents. I would comfortably bet that the number of emails pertaining to privacy concerns and the Census would be less than 1% of the total concerns constituents have.

Maybe I should submit a FOIA request, but we all know how much the Government loves to give up information...bastards.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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And the most ironic of the many ironies so far? Much of the Tory success can be attributed to their use of Census data. They have the most sophisticated database of any political machine, and they make extensive use of Census data. They use Census data to inform them that certain ethnic groups are more likely to support them (Chinese and South Asians), they use it to know which creeds are more likely to support them (Jews, and increasingly Catholics).

They have used their impressive data to identify ridings which they lost, but by small margins (less than 5%) and which have large enough groups of ethnic groups more likely to support them, so that their campaign funds can be most effectively utilized for electoral success.

It's a good thing for the Tories that the other parties are so incompetent...If Ignatieff had even half the political savvy of Don Chretien, Harper would be moving out of 24 Sussex.

Very ironic. I'm surprised that Harper and the rest went along with this idea.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
115,492
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Low Earth Orbit
And what's the name when it's used for manipulative political purposes?

Who first used data to manipulate specific racial and religious groups for political gain?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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It's still just data. The Conservative's use of the census data is perfectly legitimate.