A hero almost unknown in his own country

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Good piece, but I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate....

Bethune followed his conscience and provided much needed medical help to the soldiers of both the Spanish Civil War and the Chinese rebellion. Okay, so that makes him a man of principle.........no argument there.

But one should remember that the revolutionary group he aided in China DID take power 10 years later.....and became the worst bunch of mass-murderers in the entire blood-soaked history of humanity.

Would we consider him a hero if he had been treating Nazis before World War II/

Or Stalinist Russian soldiers in Finland?

You get my drift.......I don't think the mere fact he was a man of principle makes him any kind of Canadian icon......
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Good piece, but I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate....

Bethune followed his conscience and provided much needed medical help to the soldiers of both the Spanish Civil War and the Chinese rebellion. Okay, so that makes him a man of principle.........no argument there.

But one should remember that the revolutionary group he aided in China DID take power 10 years later.....and became the worst bunch of mass-murderers in the entire blood-soaked history of humanity.

Would we consider him a hero if he had been treating Nazis before World War II/

Or Stalinist Russian soldiers in Finland?

You get my drift.......I don't think the mere fact he was a man of principle makes him any kind of Canadian icon......


You might not be aware of this, but the CPC changed considerably after taking power. Prior to taking power, China had already been attacked twice by the British in the Opium Wars because China refused to open its borders to the opim trade even though opium was already prohibited in the UK. The UK, France, the US, Russia, and Japan had already forced extraterritoriality treaties on a humiliated China. Essentially, China was worse than a colony; it was just plain being ransacked by every country that wanted a piece of the action.

When the Japanese then decided to occupy China and established Manchuria, the Chinese revolted. Communism became attractive to many owing to its anti-imperialism, and so the Communist Party was born and grew quickly. At that time, anti-imperialism was its main tenet. Various groups across China, including the Kuomintang government and the CPC, arose against the Japanese. At first, the Communist Party offered to fight alongside the Kuomintang, but the Kuomintang insisted on fighting a two-front war agains the Japanese and the Communists. This is one reason for the Long March. The Communist Party figured that it was just disrupting things by staying on the front lines, and so left them. This helped the Communist Party on a number of fronts:

1. It could build rapor with the local population in various areas and had strict codes of discipline. A soldier coud be shot for pillaging, and conscrition was strictly prohibited. The Kuomintang did both.

2. Being off the front lines for awhile, the Communist Party was preserving its strength, not to mention it had a valid excuse to do so, to help foruc on a war against Japan and not against compatriots. The even won friends and allies among non-Communists.

After the war with Japan, the Kuomintang turned against the Communist Party, but again, the Communist Party knew how to use propaganda effectively. As soon as it was realised that the Kuomintang was receiving funding from the US, the Communist Party made sure the public knew about it. Needless to say that after a generation of being pillaged, the Chinese didn't take too kindly to any foreign intervention in their internal struggles, and so this helped to marr the Kuomintang as a sell-out.

Looking at it that way, there are many valid reasons why the Communists gained so much support and respect, while the Kuomintan ran to Taiwan. Sure the Party became corrupt afterwards, but not at the time of Bethune. In his time, it truly was a national party of integrity wiling to work with others to free itself from foreign domination.

What has become of the Communist Party since has nothing to do with Bethune, and he should be judged according to what he'd done in his time not according to what his party has done since.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Dr. Norman Bethune treated soldiers in the Spanish civil war and later treated chinese soldiers in China's war against Japan. Dr. Bethune died in 1939, ten years before Mao took over the country in 1949.
Bethune was one of the pioneers in things like blood transfusions.

Bethune is a considered a hero in both Spain and China, and he should be considered a hero in Canada.

Bethune had no control over the politics of China and he certainly can't be blamed for what Mao and his thugs did. He was treating soldiers. He was a surgeon. What would we expect?
 
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Machjo

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Good piece, but I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate....

Bethune followed his conscience and provided much needed medical help to the soldiers of both the Spanish Civil War and the Chinese rebellion. Okay, so that makes him a man of principle.........no argument there.

But one should remember that the revolutionary group he aided in China DID take power 10 years later.....and became the worst bunch of mass-murderers in the entire blood-soaked history of humanity.

Would we consider him a hero if he had been treating Nazis before World War II/

Or Stalinist Russian soldiers in Finland?

You get my drift.......I don't think the mere fact he was a man of principle makes him any kind of Canadian icon......

First off, he wasn't treating Commnists per se in his mind, but soldiers of liberation. If he were treating Nazi soldiers before WWII, no. But what if he wre treating German soldiers fighting the Russians in the streets ob Berlin, some of whom may very well have been Nazis? Though they would have been Nazis, in that particular role, he would have been treating soldiers fighting for national liberation regardless of their ideology.

As for Stalinist Russia, if he were treating Russian soldiers fighting the Nazis on Russian soil, again, he'd be helping a war of liberation.
 

Machjo

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No, then it would be like his helping the Finns against the Stalinists. To put it simply, he was helping the soldiers of country X who were fighting for country X in country X.
 

Machjo

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By the way, many Chinese soliders today join the army not because they're communists but to serve their country. The same was true of many in the USSR and the Wehrmacht.
 

#juan

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By the way, many Chinese soliders today join the army not because they're communists but to serve their country. The same was true of many in the USSR and the Wehrmacht.

The same might be said of Canadians in that war.
 

Machjo

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The same might be said of Canadians in that war.

Absolutely. I'm simpy responding to Colpie's examples, saying that they woudl apply at certain times when the Wehrmacht was fighting on its own soil near the ned of the war when the Nazi Party was on its last leg, or when the Soviet Army was fighting on its own soil against the Nazis.

At those particular points, the motive would be less ideological and more basic, to free the nation. It's only when we're fighting outside our borders does it become more ideological, unless there's a serious threat that it could end up in our brders at the flick of a dime.
 

wulfie68

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Mar 29, 2009
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But Bethune was not apolitical and that will always come into play when looking at him. He chose left over right in both Spain and China. He was a member of the Communist Party of Canada who travelled to the USSR to observe their health care system (neither of those things was illegal as far as I know). The Politics of Passion, by Larry Hannant (a bigraphy of Bethune), alleges that he specifically refused to work under the Nationalist government of Chiang Kai-Shek and insisted on helping the Chinese Communists instead.

The question is, as I think Colpy was alluding to, was Bethune motivated by political activism or geniune humanitarianism? If he decided he could serve his chosen cause better by utilizing his training as a physician rather than picking up a rifle, does that make him any less a true believer? And considering what his "cause" evolved into (in the case of China; it was already one of the most repressive regimes in the world at the time, in the USSR), is that someone we want to revere? Aside from his passport, what makes him any different from any other battlefield doctor employed by Hitler, Mao or Stalin?

In my mind Bethune's case isn't cut and dried because of the political dimension and its ramifications: I wouldn't want my son to grow up to be a Norman Bethune where I would be proud to raise a Frederick Banting.
 

Colpy

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But Bethune was not apolitical and that will always come into play when looking at him. He chose left over right in both Spain and China. He was a member of the Communist Party of Canada who travelled to the USSR to observe their health care system (neither of those things was illegal as far as I know). The Politics of Passion, by Larry Hannant (a bigraphy of Bethune), alleges that he specifically refused to work under the Nationalist government of Chiang Kai-Shek and insisted on helping the Chinese Communists instead.

The question is, as I think Colpy was alluding to, was Bethune motivated by political activism or geniune humanitarianism? If he decided he could serve his chosen cause better by utilizing his training as a physician rather than picking up a rifle, does that make him any less a true believer? And considering what his "cause" evolved into (in the case of China; it was already one of the most repressive regimes in the world at the time, in the USSR), is that someone we want to revere? Aside from his passport, what makes him any different from any other battlefield doctor employed by Hitler, Mao or Stalin?

In my mind Bethune's case isn't cut and dried because of the political dimension and its ramifications: I wouldn't want my son to grow up to be a Norman Bethune where I would be proud to raise a Frederick Banting.

Exactly, Wulfie.....you said it much better than I did. Thanks.

At the same time he was definitely on the correct side (as opposed to the "right" side) :) in the Spanish Civil War..........it was the rest of the west that was remiss in that early oportunity to take on fascism.......

And I would want my son to be the type willing to sacrifice for what he believed......

And certainly the Chinese fight against the Japanese was legitimate.......

I just wanted to encourage some debate on the negatives instead of simply declaring the man suitable for sainthood.

It seems I succeeded.
 

Nuggler

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Feb 27, 2006
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I take issue with the fact that he was "almost unknown in his own country"

I knew about him, and I live just about as far back in the boonies as one gets.

We studied him in school. Well, I mean, ABOUT him, eh. He wasn't actually there.

Now the students of today, eh........dumbed down and all, might not have heard of him. I'll give ya that. But, what do shytehead rappers matter anyways, eh ??

Yep, good ol Norm.

8O
 

Cannuck

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Feb 2, 2006
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I take issue with the fact that he was "almost unknown in his own country"

I knew about him, and I live just about as far back in the boonies as one gets.

I know about him. I asked my 17 year old daughter and she knew who he was. I don't know why he would be considered unknown.