A basic income for all

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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I do believe in "basic income". However, in my book Social Security covers that as only those who are in genuine need should be covered by that concept. For all its flaws, our system is strong enough and flexible enough to enable young and healthy people to fend for themselves. When there is need, ACA, Food Assistance, and Medicaid cover all other needs.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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This is something that must be implemented. A basic income would be a vaccine for the rampant poverty and crime so entrenched in our society today. We also need to confront the issue high unemployment as jobs become more and more obsolete with every technological advance. Here is a fact - there are not jobs for everyone! How would you remedy an issue of this magnitude? With a basic income.


Basic income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So where would the incentive be to work?

There already is a shortage of workers. Just the young don't want the jobs that take them away from their computers.

Translation = Or get their hands dirty or work in nasty conditions like rain, snow or mud or where there are hazards.
 

nimrod

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2015
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As the Conference Board of Canada notes, a simplified personal income tax system
would also create the conditions that would allow for a cost-effective guaranteed
annual income (GAI) delivered through the income tax system. While outside the
scope of this review, it is a conversation that Nova Scotians should be having.

Nova Scotians got this in a tax reform pkg from the "new" liberal govt.It was done before in a city in Manitoba and worked.
Some economists have endorsed it,our journalist Andrew Coyne,other prominent thinkers and the only real (old school)Tory senator Hugh Segal.
I don't think our sitting politicians would like it because it would take a lot of corruption out of the system and their ability to hire their friends to cook up crooked "regional disparity"job creation schemes,developement slush funds and get rid of rigged EI

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/m...live.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&rref=business&hpw

A Big Idea Whose Time Has Yet to Arrive: A Guaranteed Annual Income
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
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How would the GAI help those who, made good money the previous year but were laid-off at the beginning of the following year? They may have made a reasonable wage in that year but after the lay-off, make only what their EI entitles them to and after the EI runs out then what? Based on the previous years income tax return, they may actually not be entitled to anything.


JMHO
 

nimrod

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2015
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How would the GAI help those who, made good money the previous year but were laid-off at the beginning of the following year? They may have made a reasonable wage in that year but after the lay-off, make only what their EI entitles them to and after the EI runs out then what? Based on the previous years income tax return, they may actually not be entitled to anything.


JMHO
I won't pretend to know all the techniques-but from what i have read -everyone's GAI is at the poverty line and cost of living indexed.Whatever you make on top is taxed accordingly each year..EI,welfare and other schemes could be stopped or turned over to private companies you could opt in or out and pay your own premiums..The money we could save on civil service,EI and crooked govt development schemes would be huge. Paper pushers produce no durable goods and their services would no longer be needed.No more cheating on EI or welfare and people would be encouraged/punished for "underground economy" cash jobs.
 

gore0bsessed

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Oct 23, 2011
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Generous welfare systems actually make people more keen to work, Europe-wide study finds - Europe - World - The Independent

That's just so 1960's. - love in - joan baez - peter seeger
an all the rest.



Didn't work then
Won't now.
not me
i worked
the basic income thing
not sure what you're talking about but the "mincome" experiment yielded positive results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

The only idiots that make statements like "there are no jobs" are those that don't want to work. Lots of jobs now and in the future in the trades. With Baby Boomers retiring, there is and will be a shortage of workers.
many of those jobs are being replaced by machines. not sure what your malfunction is, THERE ARE NOT JOBS OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE, and as the population grows with technology advancing the situation only worsens for unemployment.

This isn't about being lazy and not wanting to work, it's about the real possibility of more and more jobs becoming obsolete due to technological advancements.

So where would the incentive be to work?
You don't realize many people give enjoyability of a job higher priority over money? That's not good if the entire workforce is solely doing it for the money...
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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Generous welfare systems actually make people more keen to work, Europe-wide study finds - Europe - World - The Independent


not sure what you're talking about but the "mincome" experiment yielded positive results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome


many of those jobs are being replaced by machines. not sure what your malfunction is, THERE ARE NOT JOBS OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE, and as the population grows with technology advancing the situation only worsens for unemployment.

This isn't about being lazy and not wanting to work, it's about the real possibility of more and more jobs becoming obsolete due to technological advancements.

Then those that can't seem to find work had best go back to school and learn something that will provide them with a job. It is not up to the taxpayer to provide for those that chose not to work. Those that can't work are already provided for.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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Generous welfare systems actually make people more keen to work, Europe-wide study finds



But it appears that the benefits included in that article are social services, not basic income or minimum wages. This suggests to me that it validates my post # 21 in that a basic income is not needed in those societies (or in ours) because of these social safety net programs. A mandated income is not needed if a person has ready access to affordable health care, transportation, food assistance, and housing. Therefore, certain industries which may be financially harmed if they are forced to pay wages that are beyond their means need not be burdened as society already has put into place safety nets which enable people from low income backgrounds with the means with which to sustain themselves.


Now, having said all that, if society did not have those safety nets, then possibly a basic income would be advisable assuming businesses can be backed up with government financial resources or some other alternative. However, based on what we have in this society it is not needed.
 

gore0bsessed

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Oct 23, 2011
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But it appears that the benefits included in that article are social services, not basic income or minimum wages. This suggests to me that it validates my post # 21 in that a basic income is not needed in those societies (or in ours) because of these social safety net programs. A mandated income is not needed if a person has ready access to affordable health care, transportation, food assistance, and housing. Therefore, certain industries which may be financially harmed if they are forced to pay wages that are beyond their means need not be burdened as society already has put into place safety nets which enable people from low income backgrounds with the means with which to sustain themselves.


Now, having said all that, if society did not have those safety nets, then possibly a basic income would be advisable assuming businesses can be backed up with government financial resources or some other alternative. However, based on what we have in this society it is not needed.


I don't know anyone who thinks welfare is sufficient, and if a basic income were to be implemented many of the current social nets would be abolished.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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But it appears that the benefits included in that article are social services, not basic income or minimum wages. This suggests to me that it validates my post # 21 in that a basic income is not needed in those societies (or in ours) because of these social safety net programs. A mandated income is not needed if a person has ready access to affordable health care, transportation, food assistance, and housing. Therefore, certain industries which may be financially harmed if they are forced to pay wages that are beyond their means need not be burdened as society already has put into place safety nets which enable people from low income backgrounds with the means with which to sustain themselves.


Now, having said all that, if society did not have those safety nets, then possibly a basic income would be advisable assuming businesses can be backed up with government financial resources or some other alternative. However, based on what we have in this society it is not needed.

Well said gopher
 

nimrod

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2015
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But it appears that the benefits included in that article are social services, not basic income or minimum wages. This suggests to me that it validates my post # 21 in that a basic income is not needed in those societies (or in ours) because of these social safety net programs. A mandated income is not needed if a person has ready access to affordable health care, transportation, food assistance, and housing. Therefore, certain industries which may be financially harmed if they are forced to pay wages that are beyond their means need not be burdened as society already has put into place safety nets which enable people from low income backgrounds with the means with which to sustain themselves.


Now, having said all that, if society did not have those safety nets, then possibly a basic income would be advisable assuming businesses can be backed up with government financial resources or some other alternative. However, based on what we have in this society it is not needed.
You have missed some important points.First-those fiscal conservatives heard from in the earlier posts and right wingers in general promote the myth that some people "don't want to work.'This particular article from the UK belies that premise.

It has been noted in the top around 7 most prosperous countries like Norway that inequality really costs more and nobody minds higher taxes when you are living well unless you are greedy.

Right wingers say they want smaller government.As i touched on in an earlier post-what do govts,civil service and bureaucrats produce?
NO durable goods and "services"that produce crooked EI,baloney regional disparity schemes and govt "friends" at huge salaries to administer these costly useless schemes at a huge cost to taxpayers.

Our elders had the debate on Old age pension and were told it would bankrupt the country.Then it was Medicare(which the rich are trying to slowly strangle to death) and of course EI which was paid for by the workers.For years they have now reduced people who qualify to ridiculous numbers and shorter durations-yet they keep the huge amounts they steal like this as a slush fund.It is theft.
Welfare is not enough to live on-is not fully cost of living adjusted and minimum wage laws are just enough to keep people working.They are also a diversion,so the rich can point to welfare moms and cheats.

It's late and i won't expand much more now but welcome any attacks on what i have stated for later.In a nutshell-smaller govt and civil services,simpler fairer taxes,less money pumped into "make work' and shady schemes and a system that actually rewards you for any work you get paid for on top of your "Mincome" even if it is not well paid.Paid what your skills say you are worth and taxed fairly.
 

nimrod

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2015
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How do you define 'fair tax'?
Not gonna let me go to bed? All right.A minimum income would be for each individual at the poverty line.Anything above that would be taxed at what the rates are every year.I won't get into details till tomorrow-but the tax havens,schemes etc should be cleaned up.Do you have any idea how much flat out theft the wealthy get away with and the amount CRA is owed? good nite...
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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Talk tomorrow.

Just as a parting thought, the phrase 'fair tax' is often a highly subjective measure and by definition, does not represent equality in any way, shape or form.

I mention this as society's connection between fair and equal is generally very strong
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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gore0bsessed said:
many of those jobs are being replaced by machines. not sure what your malfunction is, THERE ARE NOT JOBS OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE, and as the population grows with technology advancing the situation only worsens for unemployment.

This isn't about being lazy and not wanting to work, it's about the real possibility of more and more jobs becoming obsolete due to technological advancements.


Don't know what fantasy world you live in, but......

Retiring baby boomers starting to impact labour market, RBC says | CTV Kitchener News
 

Angstrom

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May 8, 2011
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I don't know anyone who thinks welfare is sufficient, and if a basic income were to be implemented many of the current social nets would be abolished.


You need to look at it from a different angle.

Everyone needs a basic production of value.

Giving a basic income to everyone without them having produced anything of value that is in demand will only devaluate what our money can buy.
Money equals production. If you give it to someone for zero production, you have basically made that money worthless.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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This is something that must be implemented. A basic income would be a vaccine for the rampant poverty and crime so entrenched in our society today. We also need to confront the issue high unemployment as jobs become more and more obsolete with every technological advance. Here is a fact - there are not jobs for everyone! How would you remedy an issue of this magnitude? With a basic income.


Basic income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

rapidly becomes

From each as little as possible, to each as much as they can scam.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
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Yep.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

rapidly becomes

From each as little as possible, to each as much as they can scam.
What scams are you involved in? Seeing as how you've put this up as a universal law and all.

Or are you the shining exception?