911 take 911

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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We've read pages and pages of what this site says or that site says. Do you have YOUR OWN version of what happened? One can't really claim to have debunked a thing without having thoughts all their own.

I've been a member and contributor on that site for many years so your getting my material along with a lot of other peoples so sorry if I'm too lazy to retype everything all over again.

So if your questioning the source,I am part of that source along with many others.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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How do we know you didn't google it? Your credibility takes a beating every time you claim knowledge that hasn't presented itself. At best, unless you're one of the people actually involved, it's all just guesswork based on what you know from other situations. That makes your guesses no better than anyone elses.
 

Kakato

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How do we know you didn't google it? Your credibility takes a beating every time you claim knowledge that hasn't presented itself. At best, unless you're one of the people actually involved, it's all just guesswork based on what you know from other situations. That makes your guesses no better than anyone elses.

The reason I can post a response so fast is because I have had this info on my computer for years and have argued the same points repeatedly so it's not too hard.

Now if your going to say my credibility has taken a beating then perhaps you will show me where or post some proof of this.
I dont lie,I know that may be hard for you to fathom but I have lived my life this way for a long time so i can back up anything I say on what I have done and I have done lots.

I'm posting well researched facts that counter any assumptions or false statements made.

Why do you have a problem with facts?
What knowledge have I claimed to posses that your curious about?
My experience with blasting maybe? I hold a ticket to supervise blasters and I'll post a copy for if you like,I also have many other certificates that I need for my line of work.
Got a problem with that or the facts?
Otherwise it seems like your also just trolling.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
The reason I can post a response so fast is because I have had this info on my computer for years and have argued the same points repeatedly so it's not too hard.

Now if your going to say my credibility has taken a beating then perhaps you will show me where or post some proof of this.
I dont lie,I know that may be hard for you to fathom but I have lived my life this way for a long time so i can back up anything I say on what I have done and I have done lots.

I'm posting well researched facts that counter any assumptions or false statements made.

Why do you have a problem with facts?
What knowledge have I claimed to posses that your curious about?
My experience with blasting maybe? I hold a ticket to supervise blasters and I'll post a copy for if you like,I also have many other certificates that I need for my line of work.
Got a problem with that or the facts?
Otherwise it seems like your also just trolling.

Defensive are we? They with the most to prove and all ... and now name-calling too. Preachy just makes you look insecure and this sort of fluff only adds to it.

So ... a foiler is someone who doesn't take your word for it? You need adoring crowds? That job's already filled.

Hint: You learn a lot more by observing.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Defensive are we? They with the most to prove and all ... and now name-calling too. Preachy just makes you look insecure and this sort of fluff only adds to it.

So ... a foiler is someone who doesn't take your word for it? You need adoring crowds? That job's already filled.

Hint: You learn a lot more by observing.

You made the claim,so now your saying you cant back it up?
I have nothing to prove and couldnt give a rats ass what peeps think of me.
You on the other hand seem jelous or something with the constant need to follow me around so that makes me wonder who the insecure one is here.

I hate crowds of any kind,most people play mind games and dont like it when I take them to task on them.

The topic was about 9/11 and I have posted nothing but well researched facts that challenge the assumptions being made along with pictures and video for comparisons..

Tell me why you have a problem with that?
Take your own advice.
Hint: You learn a lot more by observing
 

MHz

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Mar 16, 2007
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The reason I can post a response so fast is because I have had this info on my computer for years and have argued the same points repeatedly so it's not too hard.

Now if your going to say my credibility has taken a beating then perhaps you will show me where or post some proof of this.
I dont lie,I know that may be hard for you to fathom but I have lived my life this way for a long time so i can back up anything I say on what I have done and I have done lots.

I'm posting well researched facts that counter any assumptions or false statements made.

Why do you have a problem with facts?
What knowledge have I claimed to posses that your curious about?
My experience with blasting maybe? I hold a ticket to supervise blasters and I'll post a copy for if you like,I also have many other certificates that I need for my line of work.
Got a problem with that or the facts?
Otherwise it seems like your also just trolling.

Is that why you are glossing over new things, like the cockpit door info? You should have that info if you have researched it thoroughly, after all it has been available for several months.

So rather than take anybody through all that old material how about something new.

You point to the salvage work as being the source of the 'sulfur residue' when you haven't shown that the tested dust came from inside the area where cutting was being done. Molten aluminum is silver in color, no yellows/oranges involved.
Here is a rather short video that deals mostly with the rubble pile. The 2nd link is to a full length documentary.

YouTube - 9/11 Coincidences (Part Eight)

Confronting the Evidence

Molten metal
YouTube - Scientists Examine the Molten Steel that Lingered for Weeks Underneath WTC 1, 2 & 7 on 9/11 - Many Surprises Found
 

MHz

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I dont get hissy,absolutely no one can piss me off.
Sure 'we' can, that is why you bring terms like 'tinfoiler' into the conversation. You just regurgitate what you have in the past (by your own admission), why, it has nothing to do with the FDR and the cockpit door.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Um, you guys remember the topic?

The first vid lost me almost right away when the lady said that steel can only be melted in a blast furnace or if thermite is used. That's straight crap. Otherwise steel could not be welded or cut in machine shops and especially not underwater. I saw no reason to continue watching this video when misleading comments like that are made.

As far as the second one goes, I don't want to spend 2 hours + listening to what this guy's opinion about the matter is.

Concerning the 3rd vid: I can't doubt that explosives were used but the points these people were making are debatable. Their main points were that there was aluminum and sulfur found in metal debris and there was molten metal under the buildings. Well, can you guess how many materials containing sulfur or aluminum might have been in an office building? Wire insulation contains sulfur, adhesives contain sulfur, paints and enamels, transformer dielectrics, pretty much anything made from petrochemicals contains sulfur (stuff like plastics), and so on.
Stuff containing aluminum? Wire conduits, computers and fax machines and other office equipment, the aircraft themselves, some wires, etc.

Melted metals? That's hardly a big surprise either. Can you imagine the amount of friction and compression involved in a building collapse? Lead by itself has been known to melt under just the compression of shock waves. If you prevent a metal from expanding and apply pressure you increase its temperature. Add heat from friction and probably chemical reaction, I think it is pretty feasible to find molten metals under collapsed buildings.

Besides that, if the puddles were a combo of molten iron, aluminum, and other stuff, why weren't the buckets of the excavation equipment melting when they dipped into the puddles? Molten iron is hotter than molten structural steel.
 
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Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Um, you guys remember the topic?

The first vid lost me almost right away when the lady said that steel can only be melted in a blast furnace or if thermite is used. That's straight crap. Otherwise steel could not be welded or cut in machine shops and especially not underwater. .

Some of the claims just boggle the mind,Ive seen 2 d10 bulldozers(I was running one) get side to side with blades together to push a huge rock and the steel on the blades was literally dripping off like molten welding slag just from the incredible friction.

Thermite is also used in plasma cutters which is what they used to cut the steel beams while cleaning up the debris at the WTC.
They dont do nice clean cuts but are better to cut thick sections of any iron and most welding shops have one now.

Lots of the molten aluminum came from the ups machines on the one floor.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Sure 'we' can, that is why you bring terms like 'tinfoiler' into the conversation. You just regurgitate what you have in the past (by your own admission), why, it has nothing to do with the FDR and the cockpit door.

I covered the cockpit door about 6 pages ago.You can go back and find it yourself,im not spoon feeding it to you or doing your homework for you if you arent comprehending the info.
 

MHz

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Mar 16, 2007
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The first vid lost me almost right away when the lady said that steel can only be melted in a blast furnace or if thermite is used. That's straight crap. Otherwise steel could not be welded or cut in machine shops and especially not underwater. I saw no reason to continue watching this video when misleading comments like that are made.
I'm pretty sure it was referencing 'pools of molten metal' rather than making small cuts. Look at this photo, 5 days after the attack look at all the 'hot spots'. Cleanup operation had barely started so cutting beams for removal is not the source.



As far as the second one goes, I don't want to spend 2 hours + listening to what this guy's opinion about the matter is.
That's fine, a person would have to have some interest, you quit after a minute on a 10min vid.

Concerning the 3rd vid: I can't doubt that explosives were used but the points these people were making are debatable. Their main points were that there was aluminum and sulfur found in metal debris and there was molten metal under the buildings. Well, can you guess how many materials containing sulfur or aluminum might have been in an office building? Wire insulation contains sulfur, adhesives contain sulfur, paints and enamels, transformer dielectrics, pretty much anything made from petrochemicals contains sulfur (stuff like plastics), and so on.
Stuff containing aluminum? Wire conduits, computers and fax machines and other office equipment, the aircraft themselves, some wires, etc.
Hers is a link (to a link) to a paper that covers just what was found.
Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center // Current


Melted metals? That's hardly a big surprise either. Can you imagine the amount of friction and compression involved in a building collapse? Lead by itself has been known to melt under just the compression of shock waves. If you prevent a metal from expanding and apply pressure you increase its temperature. Add heat from friction and probably chemical reaction, I think it is pretty feasible to find molten metals under collapsed buildings.
Really, find one other example anywhere.

Besides that, if the puddles were a combo of molten iron, aluminum, and other stuff, why weren't the buckets of the excavation equipment melting when they dipped into the puddles? Molten iron is hotter than molten structural steel.
You provided the answer yourself, they were dipped in it for a short period of time, leave it in overnight see what happens.
 

Kakato

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Jun 10, 2009
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Once again,heres thermite.

Rethinking Thermite

One of the pieces of evidence conspiracy theorists use to say the buildings were brought down is a photo with something they interpret as being left behind by a thermite reaction.

There are a number of things they claim with this photo. One is the timeline. They say the photo has firemen which means this was during the rescue operation which only lasted two weeks. Why would they have fireman after the rescue operations? This suggests to them that the cut on the columns were made very close to September 11. The suggestion here is that it was done during the collapse.
They claim that the angle of the cut can't be created by a welding tool and/or is designed to have the building fall in a certain direction.
The other is a yellow substance they claim is residue from a thermite reaction.
Let's examine these claims one by one to see where the evidence takes us...
Timeline and Firemen The rescue operation took about two weeks. They figured anyone left alive would have died by then anyway, so they started clean up operations and body recovery. During this time there was always at least 50 policemen and 50 firemen left on the scene to recover their fallen brothers. There were even more than that on ground zero until the city of NY told them to leave in November 2001. The city couldn't justify risking the health of 150 police and fireman for body recovery. In fact there was a protest about it which ended with the mayor allowing 50 members of each department on the scene.
Citing safety concerns, Giuliani had sought to scale back the number of firefighters working at ground zero to 25. At one point there had been as many as 150 firefighters and police officers at the site.
The decision angered firefighters still mourning the loss of 343 colleagues in the attacks. Many bodies have not been recovered, and the firefighters said they wanted to help find the remains of their friends and colleagues.
The number of firefighters working at the site was increased to 50 on Thursday.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2001/11/10_APcharges.html Below are photos of firemen well after September 11.

October

December 15th 2001

So the fact that there are firemen in the photo doesn't mean anything. That cut could have been done at any time during the clean up and recovery. Lets not forget the building went down some 6 stories underground. The firemen were recovering bodies mainly from the core and some were in the lobby when it happened. So it's not unreasonable to expect firemen there well after the event. Long enough for an ironworker to cut the column.
Angle and yellow residue
Another point is the angle of the cut. The argument here is that it suggests the column was cut at an angle so the building fell in a certain direction, like a tree. But is it possible the column was cut at an angle so just the column fell in a certain direction during cleanup? This can't be, surely the scholars would have asked an ironworker or someone else on the scene. I bet there isn't one photograph someone can find on the internet of a column which is cut at an angle. Remember, we're talking about "Scholars" here.

Once again, a close up of their column...

Maybe I'm being a little unfair. Maybe I just happened to get this from some obscure site. Maybe I work for the government and have a stash of photos the scholars aren't privy to... No, actually I got this from the same place the scholars got their photo.
Scholars Photo:
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?CategoryID=5&picnum=13
The above photo
http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?CategoryID=5&picnum=73

Note the yellow smoke and residue left behind by the ironworker.

Thermite in general makes an ugly hole with molten metal drips/blobs. It doesn't make clean cuts. It's a powder that undergoes a violent chemical reaction as seen in the video below. http://www.guzer.com/videos/thermite_car.php
 

Kakato

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Molten metal explained and very thoroughly.


Molten Metal

The molten metal that conspiracy theorists point to are a glowing flow coming from the south tower window and molten steel found under ground zero.

They suggest the above glow is steel which is being cut by a thermite cutter charge reaction. They show photos of a thermite reaction burning a hole downward through a metal plate. Let's forget for a moment that thermite doesn't explode so the claims of hearing explosions become meaningless. The argument that there was thermite and explosives seems to be rationalization of this dilemma. Why would they use thermite which cuts steel without announcing it, then switch to explosives? To tip people off? No theory exist to explain this but the faithful simply say "We're still working on it". I'm sure they are. Let's also give ourselves selective amnesia and pretend thermite can burn sideways to melt vertical columns. Maybe with some device but no working device has been proven to me to work. While there are relatively large canisters which can burn small holes sideways, I have yet to see this elusive steel cutting technique used to cut a vertical column. Then there is a patent of a device which has been brought up but as of yet there is no evidence the idea went any further. Does it even work? Anyone can make a patent but it doesn't mean it exists or even works. Even if it did, they are "Ganged" together to make the cut according to the patent. You would still need these boxes all over the columns. It would be pretty absurd to suggest they moved the walls away from the columns just to fit these things around the columns. Of course they'll say they didn't suggest that but it goes without saying. Anyway, physicists aren't supposed to know these things. I will give Jones the benefit of the doubt and say he and the other "Scholars for truth" may not know how to use Google. We'll chalk this up to old scholars who hate computers. (We'll also forget that professors are supposed to know how to do research. Though that one is a little tougher for me...) The last thing we are to ignore is that this thermite charge didn't go off during the impact and decided to go off later. Yes, thermite needs a very hot source or primary explosive to go off but this primary explosive didn't go off either. (Enter sound of explosives right? Wrong, the sounds were described as happening at the time of collapse. From what I've seen of thermite, it needs longer than microseconds to work on thick steel.) Jones' torch on the thermite proves it needs other means of setting it off but it doesn't prove a thing for whatever is supposed to set it off. That would still be very volatile in the fires. I have yet to see this 1,100C fireproof container and radio controlled primary explosive combination some have rationalized. This seems to exist because they need it to exist. It will be interesting to see how Jones gets around this now that he knows. Will he use these rationalizations or produce hard facts? I have little doubt he will think of SOMETHING...
Since I first wrote this, the conspiracy theorists did not disappoint. Enter "Nanothermite!" They offer these links to prove its explosive properties. The problem is the links do the exact opposite.
INTRODUCTION
Aluminum powder is a common ingredient in
energetic materials. The aluminum is used to
increase the energy and raise the flame temperature
in rocket propellants. It is also incorporated in
explosives to enhance air blast, increase bubble
energies in underwater weapons, raise reaction
temperatures and create incendiary effects. In
explosives, it is generally assumed that combustion
of aluminum particles occurs behind the reaction
front (during the expansion of the gaseous detonation
products), so that the particles do not participate in
the reaction zone, but rather act as inert ingredients.

http://www.intdetsymp.org/detsymp2002/PaperSubmit/
FinalManuscript/pdf/Brousseau-193.pdf

Son, who has been working on nanoenergetics for more than three years, says that scientists can engineer nanoaluminum powders with different particle sizes to vary the energy release rates. This enables the material to be used in many applications, including underwater explosive devices, primers for igniting firearms, and as fuel propellants for rockets.

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/
wo_gartner012105.asp?p=1
Note it doesn't say this type of thermite takes the place of explosives, only "to enhance air blast". None of the suggested uses scream POWERFUL to me. The towers were not underwater, and their is no evidence rockets were strapped to the columns. That they would use it as a primer and not an actual explosive seems to be good evidence it's not as powerful as the conspiracy theorist suggest.
Now that you have the ignorance of "Scholars for 911 truth" we can continue...
To be honest, I don't like this kind of evidence. It's not something which the scientists of the NIST or anyone else can prove. It's for 'assumptionists', of which I'm not one. Yet, there is enough evidence to point to the glow being aluminum. (Anyone saying they KNOW what the substance is would be lying. I won't pretend to KNOW it's aluminum because I don't. The NIST doesn't say they KNOW either. They only conclude it's aluminum because it's the most likely, given the evidence.)
"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface."
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
One of the glaringly OBVIOUS pieces of evidence is the place the flow is coming from. It just happens to be where the airliner crashed to a halt. You can tell by the way the perimeter columns look. They're bowed out like a catcher's mitt.