This is what Ive said time and time again in the other threads, that the pancake collapse was impossible ,as it would have taken the towers at least 96 seconds to fall had it been so, not 12...!!!!
good post dark-beaver the truth will out eventually
9/11 Truth Manifesto
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
This is what Ive said time and time again in the other threads, that the pancake collapse was impossible ,as it would have taken the towers at least 96 seconds to fall had it been so, not 12...!!!!
good post dark-beaver the truth will out eventually
I'm just glad people like Dark Beaver do not count in life, there is a reason why God creats idiots.
The truth! We can't handle the truth! Jack Nicholson is a fine actor. I rarely miss an oportunity to use the line. One of few movie lines I can remember, I think the yelling glued it to my memory and his face. I especially liked him in TheShinning. The maze scenes were superb. I think that I'm going to open a thread here sometime and I'll find myself dragging an axe through that maze looking for Oliveoil.
Last edited:
The common sense approach to why 9/11 was clearly an inside job
If terrorism was really a threat to the US, don't you think we would have had another attack since 9/11? It wouldn't even have to be more airplane attacks. It could be bombs blowing up buses, houses, trains, but no - it hasn't happened. That shows that there is ABSOLUTELY no homegrown terrorist threat to the US. If you have any common knowledge, you know that you can find most of the ingredients to make a bomb in your local Walmart (Fox has even done reports on it). There are NO terrorists in the US (except for the government, of course).
Posted Jul 18, 2008 12:23 PM PST
Category: 911
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=drkg9jg_14153xr6fcg2
If terrorism was really a threat to the US, don't you think we would have had another attack since 9/11? It wouldn't even have to be more airplane attacks. It could be bombs blowing up buses, houses, trains, but no - it hasn't happened. That shows that there is ABSOLUTELY no homegrown terrorist threat to the US. If you have any common knowledge, you know that you can find most of the ingredients to make a bomb in your local Walmart (Fox has even done reports on it). There are NO terrorists in the US (except for the government, of course).
Posted Jul 18, 2008 12:23 PM PST
Category: 911
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=drkg9jg_14153xr6fcg2
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Navy Prosecutor In Guantanamo Case: 'If they hadn’t shot down the fourth plane it would’ve hit the dome' [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]'Though the trial the man, dubbed “Osama bin Laden’s driver”, is primarily functioning as a show piece for the Bush administration’s “war on terror”, some interesting information emerged from the Guantanamo Bay naval base yesterday in the form of a direct admission from a US prosecutor that the fourth plane was “shot down”. The revelation came during assertions from representatives for the prosecution that Salim Hamdan had detailed knowledge of the intended target of the fourth hijacked plane on 9/11.'[/FONT]
http://infowars.net/articles/july2008/230708shot.htm
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]'Though the trial the man, dubbed “Osama bin Laden’s driver”, is primarily functioning as a show piece for the Bush administration’s “war on terror”, some interesting information emerged from the Guantanamo Bay naval base yesterday in the form of a direct admission from a US prosecutor that the fourth plane was “shot down”. The revelation came during assertions from representatives for the prosecution that Salim Hamdan had detailed knowledge of the intended target of the fourth hijacked plane on 9/11.'[/FONT]
http://infowars.net/articles/july2008/230708shot.htm
9/11... the Ship goes Down while The Band Plays on.
It's the most amazing thing about the 9/11 attacks. You've got hundreds of professionals in the sciences and engineering fields that are on record and supported by irrefutable evidence who say that 9/11 could not have happened the way they say it did. You have hundreds of professional pilots, military pilots and aviation experts who say that those accused of piloting the planes could not possibly have done so. You have former leaders from Japan and Germany as well as intelligence chiefs from Italy and other places who say that 9/11 was an Inside Job and that those who carried it out were members of the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and elements of British intelligence. We have all of this and more, much more and yet we hear nothing about it in the mass media except when the matter is ridiculed or debunked with the most ham-handed efforts. We have lying gatekeepers like Noam Chomsky saying it doesn't matter if the government, with the assistance of other governments, did 9/11. His arguments make no sense. Why would it not matter? Anyone who makes such an argument is without a doubt in the employ of those who carried out the attacks. Their arguments make no sense. One could say that it doesn't matter who made the attacks at Columbine. It doesn't matter who carried out the Oklahoma bombing. It doesn't matter why we invaded Iraq. It doesn't matter if we attack Iran. It doesn't matter if you obey the law or break the law. It doesn't matter if you lie or tell the truth. It doesn't matter how many people died for a lie. It doesn't matter if the Palestinians are exterminated. Apparently nothing matters except to the people that it happens to and they're gone and that doesn't matter either.
Posted Aug 3, 2008 06:55 AM PST
Category: 911
See The Secret Service at Booker Elementary: The Dog That Did Not Bark
http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/
It's the most amazing thing about the 9/11 attacks. You've got hundreds of professionals in the sciences and engineering fields that are on record and supported by irrefutable evidence who say that 9/11 could not have happened the way they say it did. You have hundreds of professional pilots, military pilots and aviation experts who say that those accused of piloting the planes could not possibly have done so. You have former leaders from Japan and Germany as well as intelligence chiefs from Italy and other places who say that 9/11 was an Inside Job and that those who carried it out were members of the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and elements of British intelligence. We have all of this and more, much more and yet we hear nothing about it in the mass media except when the matter is ridiculed or debunked with the most ham-handed efforts. We have lying gatekeepers like Noam Chomsky saying it doesn't matter if the government, with the assistance of other governments, did 9/11. His arguments make no sense. Why would it not matter? Anyone who makes such an argument is without a doubt in the employ of those who carried out the attacks. Their arguments make no sense. One could say that it doesn't matter who made the attacks at Columbine. It doesn't matter who carried out the Oklahoma bombing. It doesn't matter why we invaded Iraq. It doesn't matter if we attack Iran. It doesn't matter if you obey the law or break the law. It doesn't matter if you lie or tell the truth. It doesn't matter how many people died for a lie. It doesn't matter if the Palestinians are exterminated. Apparently nothing matters except to the people that it happens to and they're gone and that doesn't matter either.
Posted Aug 3, 2008 06:55 AM PST
Category: 911
See The Secret Service at Booker Elementary: The Dog That Did Not Bark
http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] NIST WTC 7 Report: Shameful, Embarrassing And Completely Flawed [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]'NIST Claims “New Phenomenon” occurred for the first time ever in the collapse of World Trade center Building 7, yet fails to address why ground zero workers and media outlets had prior knowledge of an “extraordinary event” never before observed an hour in advance, plus myriad of other ignored issues.'[/FONT]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/nist-wtc-7-report-shameful-embarrassing-and-completely-flawed.html
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Debunking NIST's Conclusions about WTC 7: Easy as Shooting Fish in a Barrel [/FONT]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/debunki...-wtc-7-easy-as-shooting-fish-in-a-barrel.html
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]'NIST Claims “New Phenomenon” occurred for the first time ever in the collapse of World Trade center Building 7, yet fails to address why ground zero workers and media outlets had prior knowledge of an “extraordinary event” never before observed an hour in advance, plus myriad of other ignored issues.'[/FONT]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/nist-wtc-7-report-shameful-embarrassing-and-completely-flawed.html
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Debunking NIST's Conclusions about WTC 7: Easy as Shooting Fish in a Barrel [/FONT]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/debunki...-wtc-7-easy-as-shooting-fish-in-a-barrel.html
Selling the official story of 9/11 - in the first hour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwq04_KhCeI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwq04_KhCeI&feature=related
Think about it. The first fellow who is the infamous CIA plant may have actually been someone who knows a bit about buildings. I know you may think that is a bit of a stretch,but NY has more tall buildings than any other city in the world.And you know what else,they also have more people who know about tall buildings than anywhere else in the world. Hundreds of news crews interviewing hundreds of people and they stumbled on someone who got it right. Conspiracy or just the law of averages? Your little propaganda piece says he was 'chosen'.Yes,he was chosen by the conspiracists.Why haven't any of the thousands of conspiracy buffs tried tro find this guy? Or have they and he turned out to be an intelligent man and nothing else?... An emotional buzzword. Your little PP says the next guy was using emotional buzzwords like 'heroes,policeman and fireman,rescue workers'. Think about it. There were hundreds of policeman,fireman,heroes and rescue workers in the area. What should they have been called? Dirty coppers,firebugs,lifesavers,etc. Think about it. The guy called them what they are,not 'emotional buzzwords'. The third segment had a man saying he believed Osama was behind the attacks with-in 33 minutes,OMG,he must have had prior knowledge. Guess what?. I thought that islamic terrorists were behind it right from the time the first plane smacked into the building and I definitly do not have any links to the Bush administration.Or do I? Think about it....One more little item to think about? PrisonPlanet,the top conspiracy site has absolutely no idea how the explosives would have been set in the building? Is that not important?
Stretch,you got me on that one. I just went back and watched it again and now realize that the video was a spoof to show how easily the 'truthers' can be manipulated.Good one,I am surprised that the BBC reporter wasn't included.That theory is pretty far-fetched also.
22.08.2008
Indict all of the US government officials and their allies who planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks
A preponderance of evidence shows that the highest officials of the Bush Administration, in collusion with many other officials from the Pentagon, CIA, FBI, FEMA, NSA, NORAD, New York City officials, air-traffic contollers, airline executives, controlled demolitions experts, computer graphics technicians, media executives, and others together planned and committed the horrible attacks of 9/11/2001 against the Pentagon and the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City. The 9/11 attacks were immediately blamed on some bogus 'Arab highjackers', a half dozen of whom were later confirmed to be still alive, and therefore innocent, after the 9/11 attacks.
The false-flag 9/11 attacks provided the excuse for the US government's 'War on Terrorism', the chief purpose of which is for the USA to gain control of the lucrative oil fields of the Middle East. A secondary purpose is to increase the taxation of US citizens for Defense spending in support of the USA's enormous Military/Industrial Complex, and a tertiary purpose is to establish justification of the enactment of Police State measures within the USA under the vast, far-reaching, and politically ambiguous umbrella of 'Homeland Security'. When the rights of freedom of speech and assembly are curtailed for the citizens of the USA, the US government will be able to pursue its agenda of world domination without the domestic distraction of dissident opinions, protests, and demonstrations.
The Pentagon, CIA, FBI, and other agencies and officials of the US government have perpetrated many crimes, assassinations, and false-flag bombings and attacks against US citizens and US interests during the past fifty years, including, but by no means limited to, the State political assassinations of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy, and Martin Luther King; the 1988 Berlin Disco bombing; the 1993 World Trade Center bombing; the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing; and the anthrax letter attacks of October 2001. The US government and its allies also committed the Bali bombings of 2002 and 2005; the Madrid train bombings of 2004; the London 7/7/2005 bombings; and the recent spate of bombings in Ahmedabad, Jaipur, Bangalore, and at the Indian Embassy in Kabul during the summer of 2008.
Since the end of World War Two, fanatic right-wing ideologues with corporate connections have gradually gained complete control of the US military, the US intelligence agencies, the US government, and the USA's 'Mainstream Media'. Fascism in the USA is not merely a current threat posed by the Republican Administration of George W. Bush; it is an already-accomplished situation that has been many decades in the making. Fascism in the USA is actually a 'done deal'.
The USA's long descent into fascism cannot be halted or stopped merely by electing a member of the Democrat Party to the Presidency, or by electing a Democrat majority to Congress. The infiltration and control of the US government by right-wing extremists is far too advanced and complete -- they manipulate our elected officials like puppets on a string, and a great many of our elected officials are themselves part of the fascist establishment. The right-wing takeover of the US government has been a gradual and very successful fascist coup that will not be reversed without a very serious and deadly struggle. Given the history of extreme and indiscriminate violence shown by the ruling junta of the USA, it appears quite obvious to me that restoring democracy to the USA would inevitably require a violent armed Revolution in which the American people are opposed against the forces of the US government and the US military.
As a US citizen and as a human being, I personally consider the killing of innocent people in foreign countries by the CIA, the US military, and their puppets in support of the economic interests of multinational US-based corporations to be totally immoral and intolerable, and I consider it my solemn duty to oppose US aggression and Imperialism in any way that I can. US government and Mass Media propaganda promote a climate in which the actions and activities of US troops abroad are regarded as beyond reproach, but there is nothing noble or 'heroic' about unprovoked military aggression and genocide against vulnerable and innocent foreign populations.
George W. Bush, George H. Bush, Jeb, Neil, and Marvin Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condaleezza Rice, Karl Rove, Wolfowitz, Perle, Powell, Armitage, Ashcroft, Abrams, Adelman, Feith, Bolton, Libby, Kissinger, Mueller, Tenet, Goss, Giuliani, Hayden, Chertoff, Baker, and many hundreds of other individuals working for the White House, CIA, FBI, FEMA, the Pentagon, NSA, NORAD, the airline industry, and the US news media together planned and executed the 9/11 attacks. All of the above-named and their accomplices need to be tried for Treason and Mass Murder, with the death penalty as the just and very necessary reward for their conviction of those crimes.
We need a Nuremberg-style trial for Treason and Mass Murder for all of the members of the US government, the US military, the US intelligence agencies, and their civilian accomplices in the airline industry and the news media who participated in the murderous crimes of 9/11. The death penalty should be applied to all of the principals and their accomplices, even if that means executing several hundred or even several thousand people, because crimes of this magnitude against the American people and the US Republic cannot go unpunished, and the punishment must be extreme to send a message that the American people will not tolerate such Treason -- not now or in the future. If allowed to remain unpunished and at liberty, these individuals represent a grave threat to the safety and security of all Americans. If convicted of the heinous crimes of 9/11, the death penalty is the only way to ensure that they or their allies will not somehow manage to attack America and Americans again. The executions should be performed in public and be internationally televized for the entire world to witness.
I do realize that there are some very worthy reasons to oppose capital punishment in many situations. However, it is also quite apparent to me that any show of clemency that might be given to the US government perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks leaves open the possibility that they and their sympathizers could revive their subversion of American democracy and their violence toward peace-loving Americans. That is why I advocate a policy of capital punishment without any consideration of mercy, plea-bargaining, or probation for the US government perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks and their allies.
No one in or out of the US government should be exempt from prosecution and capital punishment for the Treasonous attacks of 9/11. The planners and participants in the 9/11 attacks within the US government and their accomplices must not be allowed to protect themselves behind the specious excuse of "National Security." The true security and survival of our Republic depends entirely on this.
Gregory F. Fegel
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion...er_11_attacks- 0
You know Beev,in the world that I live in,people are not indicted ,pilloried,slandered,prosecuted,or put to death without proof.Opinions are opinions,facts are facts. I do believe that a case can be made for 'truthers' to be prosecuted for treason. If you put out lies,half-truths,and opinions,in an attempt to garner support for those who are killing our soldiers and civilians,you may be guilty of sedition.If you actively support and aid or abet those who our killing our people,you are guilty of treason. Your attempt above falls in one of these categories.PRAVDA is not reputable,neither are you. Please respond without the high-brow dictionary words. Can you?
That's one of the funniest (read stupidest) of the troofer claims. As if any of the 19 hijackers wouldn't have been on the talk show circuit a long time ago if they were "confirmed" alive. The deafening silence from any of the "Alive" hijackers confirms they are in fact dead.
And if they were in fact "bogus Arab hijackers" wouldn't all 19 be alive?
LOL
You don't just suppose it's possible to steal someone else's identity do you?
Why don't we al lstep back and reflect. And then start the argument over,because by then maybe one of these bushocyrites will forget that we are totally f**ked in the head? It is the same plan that we have been doing for 7 years,and it is working. The scarecrow is stupid,my brother-in-law slept(kind of) with a woman who served him watered down drinks and almost showed him her nipples,and the scarecrow did not see the implications . Like yeah,what a fool.
You dont do your fact finding very well do you
B/S read this fool
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.
The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.
Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.
His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.
Hijacking suspects
Flight 175: Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi
Flight 11: Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari and Satam Al Suqami
Flight 77: Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour
Flight 93: Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi
Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.
He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.
But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.
Mistaken identity
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.
He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.
The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.
Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.
He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.
And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.
FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11
A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left
was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase." New Yorker 10/1/01 by Seymour HershAmerican Airlines #11 Boeing 767
7:45 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 a.m. Crashed into North Tower of World Trade Center
Satam Suqami
Used Firearm
Waleed Alshehri
Still Alive3
Wail Alshehri
Still alive10
BL Video12
Mohamed Atta
Still Alive9
U.S. Military1
Abdulaziz Alomari
Still Alive4
U.S. Military1American Airlines #77 - Boeing 757
8:10 a.m. Departed Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 a.m. Crashed into Pentagon
Khalid Almihdhar
Still Alive2
Lived w/FBI20
Majed Moqed
Nawaf Alhazmi
Lived w/FBI20
Salem Alhazmi
Still Alive6
BL Video12
Hani Hanjour
Lacked alleged
flying ability19United Airlines #175 - Boeing 767
7:58 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 a.m. Crashed into South Tower of World Trade Center
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Still Alive11
Alleged Pilot
Fayez Rashid
Ahmed Alghamdi
U.S. Military1
Hamza Alghamdi
Fabrications18
U.S. Military1
Mohand AlshehriUnited Airlines #93 - Boeing 757
8:42 a.m. Departed Newark for San Francisco
10:03 a.m. Crashed in Stony Creek Township
Saeed Alghamdi
Still Alive5
U.S. Military1
Ahmad Haznawi
Ahmed Alnami
Still Alive7
U.S. Military1
Ziad Samir Jarrah
Fabrications16
Alleged PilotThe FBI still says these are the terrorists.14 But when they are found alive,
the FBI says their identity was stolen, and its not the terrorist.15
Remember that suspicious bin Laden "confession" video?
How could he praise uninvolved living people12 for the 9/11 hijackings?
If they stole identities, how did the FBI identify those passengers as terrorists?
Not by flight calls, which contradict the FBI13 information!These aren't the first mistakes. FBI quickly had amended the original list8,
as the original "suicide hijackers" came forward!http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
Video shows laughing 9/11 hijackers in Afghan hideout
POSTED: 2:09 p.m. EDT, October 1, 2006
Story Highlights
• Sunday Times' Web site shows video of two 9/11 hijackers
• Mohammed Atta, Ziad Jarrah, seen joking, then reading serious messages
• No audio on tape; lip-readers have not been able to decipher what they're saying
• Intelligence officials say they were already aware of the videotape
Adjust font size:
LONDON, England (CNN) -- In January, 2000, two of the hijackers in the September 11, 2001, attacks were at one of Osama bin Laden's hideouts in Afghanistan, talking and laughing -- and then apparently reading their martyrdom messages for a video camera, according to video seen by the public for the first time Sunday.
The Sunday Times, a British newspaper, posted the video, which contains no sound, on its Web site.
Clips show Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the 9/11 attacks, alongside Ziad Jarrah, the hijacker of United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania. (Watch part of the video -- 3:53)
A U.S. intelligence official told CNN the intelligence community has been aware of the video for some time.
The video does not appear to contain any revelations, but the newspaper said it marks the first time "that a videotape has appeared of Mohammed Atta -- who flew an American Airlines plane into the north tower of the World Trade Center -- at a training camp in Afghanistan. It fills in a significant gap in the timing of the buildup to the attacks on the United States."
The video is date-stamped January 18, 2000.
Yosri Fouda, who authored the Sunday Times article, told CNN it was "chilling" to see the video. "Nobody has ever seen even a single frame of especially the pilots anywhere in the world, let alone in Afghanistan," he said.
The article said the paper obtained the video "through a previously tested channel. The tape has no soundtrack and a U.S. source said lip-readers had tried without success to decipher what was being said."
The Times posted the video, which lasts about an hour, in five sections on its Web site. One section shows al Qaeda leader bin Laden delivering a speech at the hideout near Kandahar. Another shows Atta and Jarrah talking, smiling, and laughing before turning to the camera and reading written messages in a somber fashion.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/01/hijackers.video/index.html
You don't live in the real world then Wallyj. All arround us the innocent are everyday victims of the powerful despicable wealthy elite, but you see nothing except what your monocular persprective presents to your antiquated processing equipment. You believe what you want about truthers (an MSM generated junk term) as you call them, you have those capable of indepentent criticle thought confused with the leeming brigade that you belong to.
Those aforementioned despicable wealthy elite are killing my countrymen Wallyj and no one else, they may be seen to pull the triggers as they have done in every conflict for well over two-hundred years.
Treason, I can agree with that one-hundred percent, and that treason emanates from the highest government and corporate positions in the western world, the people will remember those who spoke with a forked tongue and used the stick. They will also remember the quisling acolytes who mouthed thier adulation for fascism, and thier love of totalitarian capital.
You should get out of town before sundown Wally.:lol:
JTF, while the importance of the talk show circuit in your life is readily apparent there is a segment of society that does not make a habit of watching such drivel.
just doesn't add up, in the same way that most 'official' (cover) stories don't add up (See the Warren Commission and it's 'magic bullet' theory, 9-11, the Oklahoma City bombing, RFK's assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident', Pearl Harbor, etcetera, etcetera... When ANY of these are investigated in any depth, gaping holes, contradictions and flaws in reasoning inevitably present themselves. Unfortunately, we have a population of docile, unquestioningly obedient, system-worshipping zombies, who will gladly suck lie after lie from the teat of authority, no further investigation necessary...)
Last edited: