1895 school exam, are we dumb?

[JLM]

I thought I said exactly contrary in my post, I said it does make them scientists and inventors.

Sorry, I transposed a couple of words when reading your post.

 

[Johnnny]

Your both right

 

[JLM]

What exactly does make a inventor? Advanced education is not necessarily a prerequisite or a component, nor is any formal education. As for the title scientist, the same could be said.

Members of academia seem to be the biggest snobs, they may have achieved great knowledge, but some just lose it as applied to life. (nothing personal, just a observation)

Absolutely bang on Ironsides- I worked first as an engineering aide and later as a technician over a period of 35 years. All work was overseen by an Engineer or several engineers, but their role was mainly delegating people to do quality control and doing a quick perusal of the project before signing the plans. The actual work was performed by technician and aides who actually had far more knowledge of the day to day procedures required to complete the project.

 

[JLM]

I guess we have a difference of opinion about it, JLM. In my opinion the person who invents something (steam engine, internal combustion engine) is more important. In your opinion the person who does the maintenance is more important. Let us leave it at that.

WRONG, they are equally important, I just put the point across they were more important to counteract your assertion that the engineer/scientist was more important. The machine is of absolutely no value if it won't continue running.

 

[gerryh]

No need for a clinic, the "multiquote" button is right next to the "quote" button, in the bottom right hand corner of the post box.

It's real simple.

maybe sjp needs his wife to show him how to do it.

 

[countryboy]

Wow, he did all that, counrtyboy? Your Messiah? My, my, but he has been a busy little bee, hasn't he?

So tell me, how do you explain the sky high deficit? Liberals again? high unemployment? Liberals again? As soon as he came to power, why did he get rid of all the Liberal surplus and gave tax cuts mainly benefiting the rich? Liberals again?

If your Messiah has worked so hard to bring paradise on earth here in Canada, why is he struggling in the polls, tied with those evil Liberals? If he has such a string of stellar achievements (and reading the list of his accomplishments you have given, one could almost think that he really is the Messiah, put on this earth to rescue Canadians from those evil Liberals and to take them to Paradise, to promised Land), why isn't he in the majority territory, why do Canadians still mistrust him? The majority should rightly be his by now, after three liberal majorities in a row.

The fact is, you have a very weak leader, who is dictatorial, authoritarian and belongs to the far right. Currently he is governing from the centre right because he doesn't have a majority. But if he ever does get a majroity, his claws will come out and he will reveal his true colors.

But he has a university degree, which makes him worthwhile, right?

 

[countryboy]

I see, so war, poverty, sickness and homelessness are the faults of science, are they? I suppose human greed, Mother Nature, corrupt governments have nothing to do with them?

You remind me of Fundamentalist Christians. They attribute everything good that happens in the world, everything good that has ever been done in the world to Christ and to Christianity, they attribute everything bad to non Christians (particularly to Atheists). Thus 9/11 terrorist attack, or Katrina disaster was the fault of homosexuals (according to Fundamentalist preachers).

Similarly, you attribute all the evils in the world to science and technology. The fact is science and technology in no way are the cause of poverty, sickness, and homelessness, it is dishonest in the extreme to blame them for it. If anything, science and technology have made great strides towards getting rid of poverty and sickness (better yielding varieties of crops, advances in medicine etc.). There is a lot less poverty and a lot less sickness in the world today than there was 100 years ago (taken overall).

The fact that you would blame these things on science clearly indicates your bias against science.

Of course science has contributed to society. I'm simply pointing out the reality that there is more to life than science...it's just one facet.

 

[countryboy]

Again, you are confusing what corporations do with fundamental basic or applied research carried out by scientists or engineers in university setting. When originally I mentioned scientists studying the basic fundamental concepts, it was very much in the context of university research.

And contrary to what you may think, corporate management does not dictate university research. A scientist couldn’t care less about customer needs, he is there to study science, period. When he writes research proposal to government or granting body, he has to show scientific merit and relevance to the grant giving body, he doesn’t have to show market need, customer demand etc.

I think you are confusing what corporations do in their lab (which is very focused upon the corporation business) with the real research that goes on at the universities.

I think I'm not confused about that, but hey, we disagree. Next time you make a bold and sweeping statement, may I suggest that you state the context more clearly? That way, we'll both have a more clear idea of what you're talking about. Maybe.

 

[countryboy]

I did not refer to any project, what I said was that a scientist comes up with a scientific principle, based upon that, an engineer developed a practical application for it. I said nothing about the project. The talk of project came up when you implied that the management was supreme, more important than either the scientist or an engineer. That may be true in the corporations, but not in the university, where most of the research is carried out.

In your post #85 you said, "Science and technology form the spark for any new idea, any new project." Please forgive me for misinterpreting the word "project" to mean "project."

Once the research grant has been granted, there is very little accountability. The scientist has to do the research that he said he was going to do, of course and obtain publications. If he squanders the money away he won't get any more grants. But there is no day to day supervision of the grant. Once the grant is given, the giving body will look at the research at the end of the life of the grant, typically 2 to 3 years. In research you need at least that long to produce anything worthwhile.

You seem to be confusing accountability with work procedures. Let me help you with that - accountability refers to the overall goals of the effort and how well they were achieved. In the above paragraph, you said "If he squanders the money away he won't get any more grants." That is called accountability, and it applies to any field where money is spent. (Unless we're talking about Liberal cabinet ministers in the past - as in Sponsorship Scandal or Gun Registries, but that's a different subject)

You also said, "But there is no day to day supervision of the grant." That of course is simply a work procedure and it certainly isn't limited to science.

So please don't worry - I'm sure we all think that science is an important thing...it's just not the ONLY thing in life.

 

[countryboy]

Once the grant is given, the giving body will look at the research at the end of the life of the grant, typically 2 to 3 years. In research you need at least that long to produce anything worthwhile.

If all scientists have as much trouble staying on course as you do in a discussion - given your diversions and emotionally-charged rants about Fundamentalist Christians, Trudeau saving us from ourselves, to name just a couple - it's little wonder it takes them 2 to 3 years to produce anything worthwhile.

I can only imagine how that cycle could be shortened if more attention was given to the original goal. Of course, that might require a more focused educational approach, which is an interesting thought. It's also more in line with the topic of this thread.

 

[JLM]

"The fact is, you have a very weak leader, who is dictatorial, authoritarian and belongs to the far right. Currently he is governing from the centre right because he doesn't have a majority. But if he ever does get a majroity, his claws will come out and he will reveal his true colors."

That statement is very presumptous (and while I admit it is possible) neither you or anyone else has any way of knowing this. I notice you sprinkle the term Messiah around quite liberally, but in truth isn't it really yourself that you see as the Messiah?

 

[JLM]

"In your post #85 you said, "Science and technology form the spark for any new idea, any new project." Please forgive me for misinterpreting the word "project" to mean "project.""

Good one.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You don't know when science began or what it is. Siege engines, gun powder, greek fire, steel, compound bows and all the way to how and what they wound the bowstrings with. SJP, flint arrowheads are a product of fine science, war paint, science the parchments for the engine plans, science. Science has been with mankind for a very very long time.

Quite so, I think the first scientific experiment was when the prehistoric man dipped his piece of raw meat into the seawater and found it to be much tastier as a result.

Discovery of fire, discovery of wheel, these are were important scientific advances, which made mankind’s life much easier, much more bearable.

However, we have never had such a profusion of scientific ideas, such an explosion of technology as we had during the enlightenment and the industrial revolution. That marked an important transition in the human society, from subsistence farming to industrial age.

 

[countryboy]

Quite so, I think the first scientific experiment was when the prehistoric man dipped his piece of raw meat into the seawater and found it to be much tastier as a result.

Discovery of fire, discovery of wheel, these are were important scientific advances, which made mankind’s life much easier, much more bearable.

However, we have never had such a profusion of scientific ideas, such an explosion of technology as we had during the enlightenment and the industrial revolution. That marked an important transition in the human society, from subsistence farming to industrial age.

Now how could anyone without a university degree invent a wheel?

 

[Cliffy]

Quite so, I think the first scientific experiment was when the prehistoric man dipped his piece of raw meat into the seawater and found it to be much tastier as a result.

Discovery of fire, discovery of wheel, these are were important scientific advances, which made mankind’s life much easier, much more bearable.

However, we have never had such a profusion of scientific ideas, such an explosion of technology as we had during the enlightenment and the industrial revolution. That marked an important transition in the human society, from subsistence farming to industrial age.

All it marks is the transition from spiritual being to automaton. Science has solidified the ethereal, compounded the abstract. We live in a different reality from the people who originally occupied this continent but it is debatable that it is a better one. What science and industrialization has done is kill the natural world and replaced it with mechanical and electrical stuff.

 

[JLM]

Now how could anyone without a university degree invent a wheel?

The wheel was "invented" one day when a bunch of cavemen were moving rocks and one of them latched onto a round one and when he threw it he noticed it rolled a way before it stopped. The confirmation came one day when they were out bucking blocks of firewood on a side hill and one dropped off the log and rolled down the hill.

 

[JLM]

All it marks is the transition from spiritual being to automaton. Science has solidified the ethereal, compounded the abstract. We live in a different reality from the people who originally occupied this continent but it is debatable that it is a better one. What science and industrialization has done is kill the natural world and replaced it with mechanical and electrical stuff.

We've already established that life was better prior to '59, Cliff, surely we don't have to go through that again...........................:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

WRONG, they are equally important, I just put the point across they were more important to counteract your assertion that the engineer/scientist was more important. The machine is of absolutely no value if it won't continue running.

Again, that is where we have a difference of opinion. I think the person who invented the machine is more important (Thus, James Watt is more important than somebody who works in a railway workshop, or Alexander Flemming is more important than somebody who dispenses the antibiotic) , you think that the janitor or somebody who maintains the equipment is as important. Let us leave it at that.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

But he has a university degree, which makes him worthwhile, right?

Does that make any difference to you? I assume as long as he has the lable Conservative after his name, he would be the Messiah to you.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Of course science has contributed to society. I'm simply pointing out the reality that there is more to life than science...it's just one facet.

Sure there is, but science and technology are responsible, they are at the root of the advances made in our standard of living.