Did the Christian God Break his own Commandment?

[Praxius]

Okay Prax. You can be right. I know it's important to you.

Woof!

It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong, if what you say doesn't make any sense to me, then I will say so. I'm trying to find out if there is a contradiction, yes or no, and if yes or no, why? and after Why, then it boils down to whether or not it's worthwhile to believe.

To me anyways.

If a decent explination can not be reached, then there is no foundation for belief, even if you still based it on faith..... because how can one hold true faith, if what they are following isn't true?

 

[Praxius]

Mary the mother of Jesus was chaste and honest; she was not yet married; she might have been engaged; she was under the guardianship of Prophet Zachariah the husband of her aunt.

She secluded herself from the others, and set a curtain, when Gabriel the angel appeared before her in the form a man; so she was surprised and was afraid and asked God's protection from him, and told him to return back; but he said to her that he was sent by God to give her the glad tidings of bearing the Christ.​

Then he blew on the ground, and some of the dust entered into her womb, and she became fertilized by this way, and the fetus was formed in her womb, without being touched sexually by any man.​

So Gabriel was like the uncle of Jesus: the brother of his mother.​

This is in the Quran 4: 155 -157​

فَبِما نقضِهم ميثاقَهم و كفرِهمبآياتِ اللهِ و قتلِهم الأنبياءَ بغيرِ حقٍّ و قولِهم قلوبُنا غُلفٌ بل طبعَ اللهُعليها بكفرِهم فلا يُؤمنونَ إلاّ قليلاً . و بكفرِهم و قولِهم على مريَمَ بُهتاناًعظيماً . و قولِهم إنّا قتَلنا المسيحَ عيسى بنَ مريَمَ رسولَ اللهِ​

The explanation:
(155-Then because of their breaking of their covenant,
and their denial of the signs of God,
and their slaying the prophets wrongfully,
and their saying: “Our hearts are surrounded with covers [so that we don't understand what you, Mohammed, are saying]"
Not so, but God has sealed upon them because of their blasphemy, so that they will not believe except a few [of them.]

156-And because of: that they [again] unbelieved [in Jesus],
and that they uttered against Mary [, his mother,] a grave false charge.

157-And [because of] their saying [in a way of boasting]: “We slew the Messiah [the Christ] Jesus, son of Mary, the apostle of God”)

eanassir

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

Ok, you lost me.... so Marry wasn't married is what everybody is telling me.... secondly, from what I was taught through the bible, was that she was told that she was carrying Jesus, now you're claiming that the angel came down, told her she was going to be carrying Jesus, then blew dust/dirt at her and then she became pregnant?

And for the rest below that, I don't honestly see how any of that relates, as it talks about the killing of Jesus and a bunch of other things.....

 

[lone wolf]

If you're looking for scandal, you'll find scandal. Likewise, if you read it with the idea that "God" was looking for that "just right" mixing bowl, you'll understand it that way. You can read the Bible a hundred times through a hundred different eyes and find another context every time. People interpret the Bible in their own ways. The best of con artists create Churches around their particular interpretation.

 

[darkbeaver]

Ok, you lost me.... so Marry wasn't married is what everybody is telling me.... secondly, from what I was taught through the bible, was that she was told that she was carrying Jesus, now you're claiming that the angel came down, told her she was going to be carrying Jesus, then blew dust/dirt at her and then she became pregnant?

And for the rest below that, I don't honestly see how any of that relates, as it talks about the killing of Jesus and a bunch of other things.....

Marriage was a multistage affair in that culture Praxius, it was not official till after conception, the groom and the bride did not cohabitate for a period of time either and remember we are discussing the dynastic succession of both Mary and Joe both were upper crust socialites.

 

[ShintoMale]

eanassir said

The Commandments are commanded for man to obey, not for God that He should obey; God is God, man is not God; man is the servant to do the will of his Master.

So this is it: man may respect his father, mother, teacher, friends and other people; but concerning God this has to be more than the respect: it is the worshipping and servitude to God;

because God is not equal to man; people will be responsible about their acts; while God: no one may judge Him and ask Him: why did You do so and so.

this is hypocrisy and does not make sense. you cannot make rules that you don't follow and expect others to follow them in the real world this arrangement will not work

 

[lone wolf]

this is hypocrisy and does not make sense. you cannot make rules that you don't follow and expect others to follow them in the real world this arrangement will not work

Beware of stray lightning bolts....:lol:

Woof!

 

[eanassir]

so Marry wasn't married is what everybody is telling me....
secondly, from what I was taught through the bible, was that she was told that she was carrying Jesus,
now you're claiming that the angel came down, told her she was going to be carrying Jesus, then blew dust/dirt at her and then she became pregnant?

What is your evidence against this honest woman?

To accuse a chaste woman with such a calumny, you have to produce four witnesses to your accusation.

Actually, this is a sort of defame or slander about the honor of the most honest and chaste woman in the whole world.

Moreover, it is not based on any witness neither on any evidence.​

This is in the Quran 24: 23-25​

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْغَافِلَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ لُعِنُوا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ ...الخ​

The explanation:
(Surely, those – who accuse [with adultery] the women that are chaste, clear [from indecency], and that are believers – will be accursed in this World and [in] the Hereafter, and they will have a grievous torment [in Hell.]​

The day [of their death] when tongues and hands and feet shall bear witness against them of what they did.​

On that day God will pay them back, in full, their just due, and they will realize that God is the Just, Who declares His justice.)​

About their punishment; it is stated in the Quran 24: 4-5 ​

وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاء فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ ...الخ .​

The explanation:
([The judgment of] those who accuse chaste women [with adultery], and then do not bring four witnesses,
scourge them with eighty stripes, and do not accept [afterwards] any testimony of theirs;
for such are the evildoers.​

Except for those who repent after that, and reform [their deeds]; for surely God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.)​

eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[eanassir]

this is hypocrisy and does not make sense. you cannot make rules that you don't follow and expect others to follow them in the real world this arrangement will not work

Is God like man? Will God obey man, or should man obey his Master?

Moreover, God does not wrong people, but it is people that wrong themselves by the atheism, associating equals with God and transgresssing on each other.

Then will God leave the wrong-doer without punishment? Or will He deal with the evil-doer and the good-doer in the same way?

This is in the Quran 38: 28​

أَمْ نَجْعَلُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ كَالْمُفْسِدِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَمْ نَجْعَلُ الْمُتَّقِينَ كَالْفُجَّارِ​

The explanation:
(Or [if there is no Hereafter, neither any reward, nor punishment according to the opinion of the unbelievers] shall We then let those who believe and work righteous [deeds] be equal to corruptors on earth? Or shall We then let those who ward off [God's punishment] be equal to those who are profligate?)

So God ordered His apostles to fight the idolaters and wrong-doers, as does He punishes other people that are evil-doers with many natural disasters like floods, hurricanes and epidemics; but they deserve such punishment; as did He say in the Quran 11: 117​

وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ لِيُهْلِكَ الْقُرَى بِظُلْمٍ وَأَهْلُهَا مُصْلِحُونَ​

​

The explanation:
(Nor would your Lord [O Mohammed] destroy the cities unjustly when their people being reformers [: righteously acting].)
​

​

​

In addition, what wrong did God do concerning Mary, mother of Jesus?

eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[eanassir]

Beware of stray lightning bolts....:lol:

Woof!

This is in the Quran 16: 34​

فَأَصَابَهُمْ سَيِّئَاتُ مَا عَمِلُواْ وَحَاقَ بِهِم مَّا كَانُواْ بِهِ يَسْتَهْزِؤُونَ​

The explanation:
(So the evil – of what they did – smote them, and it surrounded them that [same punishment] at which they mocked.)​

 

[L Gilbert]

What command was broken?

Woof!

Missed my post? I posted the commandments and then mentioned some of the ones I think were broken by the "author".

 

[L Gilbert]

What is your evidence against this honest woman?

To accuse a chaste woman with such a calumny, you have to produce four witnesses to your accusation.
......

There is no calumny if the event didn't happen in the first place. No-one gets pregnant from dust. :roll:

 

[L Gilbert]

Is God like man? Will God obey man, or should man obey his Master?

This god won't be doing anything. It is a figment of human imagination.

Moreover, God does not wrong people, but it is people that wrong themselves by the atheism, associating equals with God and transgresssing on each other.

This god does not wrong people? lmao So I guess that plagues, pestilences, floods, etc. never happened then. lmao

Then will God leave the wrong-doer without punishment? Or will He deal with the evil-doer and the good-doer in the same way?

What punishment? So far, I've seen an awful lot of good people punished and an awful lot of foul people have good lives.

This is in the Quran 38: 28​

أَمْ نَجْعَلُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ كَالْمُفْسِدِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَمْ نَجْعَلُ الْمُتَّقِينَ كَالْفُجَّارِ​

The explanation:
(Or [if there is no Hereafter, neither any reward, nor punishment according to the opinion of the unbelievers] shall We then let those who believe and work righteous [deeds] be equal to corruptors on earth? Or shall We then let those who ward off [God's punishment] be equal to those who are profligate?)​

So God ordered His apostles to fight the idolaters and wrong-doers, as does He punishes other people that are evil-doers with many natural disasters like floods, hurricanes and epidemics; but they deserve such punishment; as did He say in the Quran 11: 117​

وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ لِيُهْلِكَ الْقُرَى بِظُلْمٍ وَأَهْلُهَا مُصْلِحُونَ​

The explanation:
(Nor would your Lord [O Mohammed] destroy the cities unjustly when their people being reformers [: righteously acting].)​

In addition, what wrong did God do concerning Mary, mother of Jesus?​

eanassir

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

[/quote]Yeah well. This is easy for you to say. All you do is spew stuff out of your book and then what you think it means in English. A robot can do that.

 

[Praxius]

What is your evidence against this honest woman?

Where's your evidence for? See how well that works eh?

To accuse a chaste woman with such a calumny, you have to produce four witnesses to your accusation.

Oh wow, considdering any and all witnesses are currently DEAD!I could once again ask you the same thing, or I guess that doesn't go the same way when it comes to compliments and good talk.

And for the record, I didn't acuse Marry of anything, I acuse God dirctly and his actions.... get it straight ffs.

Actually, this is a sort of defame or slander about the honor of the most honest and chaste woman in the whole world.

1st off... get over it.

2ndly, I didn't defame or slander anything about her, so piss off with your inaccuracies will ya? It's stupid, considdering you're getting all pissy over something that never happened..... igit.

Moreover, it is not based on any witness neither on any evidence.

​

This is in the Quran 24: 23-25​

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْغَافِلَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ لُعِنُوا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ ...الخ​

The explanation:
(Surely, those – who accuse [with adultery] the women that are chaste, clear [from indecency], and that are believers – will be accursed in this World and [in] the Hereafter, and they will have a grievous torment [in Hell.]​

Oh ok, so if I acuse or question anything about Marry or the story, I goto hell...... well you can all kiss my devilish arse because it's not the first time, nor will be the last time...... of course this right now is neither, since I never did.

I am questioning your explination, and if you can't handle it and have to start getting all righteous on my ass, then jog on, because I'm not dealing with your crap.

And if I'm asking tough questions in which are offending you, then click to another thread or something and stop responding, but I am asking ligitamate questions about this stuff, I would at least expect you would be able to tollerate what is being asked or said..... I sure as hell am tollerating plenty on my end..... including someone not being able to read properly what is being said.

Repeat: I didn't insult Marry.... cripes, I grew up Roman Catholic, I'm not that retarded. If anything, I am asking questions in her defence, not in a manner to witch hunt her.​

The day [of their death] when tongues and hands and feet shall bear witness against them of what they did.

Oh wait, this is still going?​

..... On that day God will pay them back, in full, their just due, and they will realize that God is the Just, Who declares His justice.)

Or an asshole, depending on how you look at it...... you don't see me shoving lightning bolts up everybody's arse whenever they insult me? I sure as hell don't see God doing that for me either.... apparently he wants us to learn tollerance and controlling our temper...... you say God can't control his anger issues?

Who does he think he is? Zeus? Lighten up.​

About their punishment; it is stated in the Quran 24: 4-5

​

وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاء فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ ...الخ .​

The explanation:
([The judgment of] those who accuse chaste women [with adultery], and then do not bring four witnesses,
scourge them with eighty stripes, and do not accept [afterwards] any testimony of theirs;
for such are the evildoers.​

Except for those who repent after that, and reform [their deeds]; for surely God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.)​

eanassir

http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

Ok you know what?

Give it the fok up, seriously! I swear if you pull out one more ga damn "Thou Shall have thy testies yarned through thy ears" I shall call apon my own God to kick all your asses in my revenge..... oh don't think I won't *shakes fist*

 

[Praxius]

In addition, what wrong did God do concerning Mary, mother of Jesus?

Well that's what we're trying to find out.

So far, I don't think She got a choice in the matter... so that's one thing. Secondly...... uh.... I dunno... you're religion might say she was engaged.... mine I remember taught me she was married, therefore, back to the commandment crap again.

 

[L Gilbert]

Well, the evidence shows us that this god constantly breaks its own commandments. And as far as I am concerned, the evidence is irrefutable.

 

[dj03]

Well regardless of what scholars claim, what does it exactly say in the bible?

Married or Engaged?

In the greek it is translated "engaged". It was a more formal arrangement than a modern day engagement but definitely not a marriage.

 

[Praxius]

In the greek it is translated "engaged". It was a more formal arrangement than a modern day engagement but definitely not a marriage.

Fair enough, then I guess the commandment doesn't apply in this case, and swooping into a commited relationship at the last minute and home wrecking the whole place is ok then. Now I'm not saying God destroyed their relationship per say, but it certainly would have put a damper on their future plans together then what they originally were planning.

I mean, whoopie doo.... my girlfriend just got pregnant by God and is going to give birth to the savior of the world..... I still gotta put up with her being pregnant for 9 months and then raising this kid that's not mine..... and on top of that, you can't bitch and complain or look for the bugger who knocked up your girlfriend, because he's God and everywhere.....

Besides the argument on whether Marry had a choice in the matter and if she wanted this task in the first place before it already was thrown on her..... I think Joseph got shafted on the deals in life.

 

[dj03]

Now I'm not saying God destroyed their relationship per say, but it certainly would have put a damper on their future plans together then what they originally were planning.

The text makes it clear that Joseph was planning to split, even back then they new "I'm a virgin and pregnant" meant affair.

Of course, the use of the term virgin is suspect, it comes from an Old Testament prophecy that when translated directly from the hebrew simply says "young woman", not "virgin".

The problem was that the first century Christians didn't have access to the original Hebrew Old Testament but were instead using a Greek translation called the Septuagint. The Septuagint mistakenly translated the Hebrew word for "young woman" as "virgin" which raises some questions about the origins of this fundamental Christian doctrine.

 

[Praxius]

The text makes it clear that Joseph was planning to split, even back then they new "I'm a virgin and pregnant" meant affair.

Of course, the use of the term virgin is suspect, it comes from an Old Testament prophecy that when translated directly from the hebrew simply says "young woman", not "virgin".

The problem was that the first century Christians didn't have access to the original Hebrew Old Testament but were instead using a Greek translation called the Septuagint. The Septuagint mistakenly translated the Hebrew word for "young woman" as "virgin" which raises some questions about the origins of this fundamental Christian doctrine.

Ah yes, I do believe I remember hearing that once apon a time, but was clouded by years of other things.

Of course, translating it to "Virgin" rather then just a young woman does help make the whole story more magical, then just saying she was just a typical young woman of the time, or that the person everyone grew up knowning as Jesus, could have simply been made pregnant by some other guy.

In fact, perhaps she might have done just that.... slept with some other guy, got pregnant and to avoid getting her ass stoned or beaten, she made up an elaborate story that God got her pregnant and it was out of her control, and then Jesus had to live that lie for the rest of his life, setting his fate long before he was born.

*ponders* hmmmmm.....

 

[eanassir]

Mary, mother of Jesus, was engaged to Joseph; she was not his girlfriend; she was virgin; she was chaste and honest. Her conception by Jesus was a miracle, not an ordinary thing.

She did not commit adultery; the fetus was formed in her womb, without any man contacted her sexually. She was chaste; she was honest; she was the example to all humanity, and a manifestation of God's might: that He created Jesus without father.

Not like some communities: relations and girlfriends; she was engaged to him: it means he sees her only in the presence of her family, and still she would not be allowed to be alone with him.

Moreover, while she was engaged to him; she had some presumptive ideas about her conceiving the Christ: like some dreams or some marks.

This is in the Quran 3: 42​

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ​

The explanation:
(Behold, the angels said: "O Mary,
God has chosen you [to worship Him],
purified you [from the association and idolatry]
and chosen you above women of all nations [and honored you by bearing the Christ.]")

He her fiancé) had also some presumptive ideas about her: that she had some particular duty: i.e. he was informed by some visions or inspiration that she would conceive the Christ; and that this is some divine decree, and he had to obey this decree. He was certain of her honesty and chastity.

Her family members were convinced that it was some miracle done by God, when they heard the baby speak in the cradle, and he told them that he is the servant of God, that he is a prophet and a blessed one, and that he is obedient to his mother.


eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​