White Bear First Nations mourning death of man shot by RCMP

[china]

White Bear First Nations mourning death of man shot by RCMP

Reserve members question use of force


Heather Polischuk, leaderpost.com

Published: Saturday, June 14, 2008
WHITE BEAR FIRST NATION -- The White Bear First Nation is grieving the death of a young man who was shot and killed by a member of the RCMP on Saturday morning.
RCMP said a 21-year-old man from the southeastern Saskatchewan reserve died after two RCMP members responded to a domestic dispute at about 6:30 a.m. Police said the suspect -- who has not yet been named by police -- was armed with a knife at the time of the incident, which took place outside a home.
A statement from the White Bear First Nation read on Saturday evening by Chief Brian Standingready -- and based on details relayed to band members by RCMP -- further stated that the 21-year-old "was pursued by two members of the RCMP and the member closest to the young man discharged his weapon."

View Larger ImageRCMP members were called out to a domestic dispute at approximately 6:30 a.m. Saturday morning, that ended up in the shooting death of a man by an RCMP officer. Chief Brain Standingready spoke to media at the reserve's council office on Saturday to an audience of press and family of the deceased.

Josh Sawka, Regina Leader-Post


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The young man died at the scene. Neither police nor the band are releasing further details about the incident at this time, including exactly what led to the fatal shooting.
However, RCMP spokeswoman Sgt. Carole Raymond said the two members involved are "experienced" police officers.
"We are talking members who have a good amount of service and experience in policing," she said.
On Saturday, RCMP vehicles and a strip of yellow police tape guarded the road to the house, where members of the Regina Major Crimes Unit and the Yorkton Forensic Identification Unit were on scene. An inspector with the Regina Police Service has also been appointed to oversee the investigation since police were involved in the death.
Standingready met with media early Saturday evening after spending the day with the shooting victim's grieving family.
"The loss of a young and vibrant member brings extreme grief to the entire community and there needs to be time to mourn and heal from this horrific and tragic incident," Standingready said.
He also alluded to an existing strained relationship between the First Nation and the RCMP -- a relationship that is not likely to be improved by this incident.
"This tragic incident is one of many that reflect the nature of the ongoing relationship that exists between the White Bear First Nations and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police," he said. "The safety and well-being of members of the WBFN is of a paramount concern for all involved. It is apparent that the RCMP is in a position of trust that many of our members are currently questioning."
While police conduct their investigation, the First Nation will likely be looking into the matter on its own, including through calling for an independent inquiry to look into the RCMP's lethal use of force. The reserve also made contact with FSIN Chief Lawrence Joseph, and Standingready said the FSIN will be conducting its own investigation.
Some members of the community expressed anger and shock on Saturday, describing the shooting victim as a likable person.
"The community is not doing well," said an emotional Robin Standingready, the victim's cousin. "We want to know answers. We need to know answers ... He was a nice human being ... It's hard to wake up and find out something like that happened. And graduation was last night. This was all happiness for our reserve and to wake up to something like this, it was a horrible tragedy. It is so bad, it is so wrong."
One female resident of the reserve, who did not want her name used, said she was also shocked to hear of the young man's death.
"Everybody does know who the person was, and quite frankly he was just a young boy ...," she said. "He's just a young kid, happy-go-lucky, easygoing, so there was no reason for the RCMP to use that type of violence on him ... This guy was so nice, I can't believe that he was shot. It stuns me and it stuns his family that the RCMP would shoot this man."
The woman expressed anger at the RCMP over the incident, claiming the officer who shot the man used excessive force. She questioned why police didn't use other means of handling the situation, such as the Taser or pepper spray.
While the members of the First Nation continue to look for answers, Standingready said community members will also help each other as they try to cope with the loss of a community member. The First Nation has about 2,200 members with between 850 and 900 living on reserve, Standingready said.
hpolischuk@leaderpost.canwest.com

Who is wrong?

 

[Colpy]

Okay.

A knife is a deadly weapon. When I taught self-defense to armed guards, part of the course included defense against edged weapons. The first surprize? Edged weapons penetrate kevlar body armour like.....well, like a hot knife through butter. The second surprize? A fit man can cover 25 feet and deliver a knife thrust in a second and one half.
Conclusion? If the guy is threatening you with a knife within the 25 foot radius.....shoot him.

Now, this DOES seem like the perfect spot to deploy the Taser......but probably they didn't have one.

Pepper spray doesn't cut it against an armed opponent.

 

[china]

Thanks Colpy , amazing statistics.

 

[MikeyDB]

It seems obvious that tasers are limited by the RCMP for use on white innocent victims while lethal force is more appropriate for natives....

It's so very difficult to second-guess the dynamics of the moment. Questions that must only take microseconds have to asked and answered. Who is in the most immediate danger? Is there an alternative available?

I wish cops would learn to shoot. At 25 YARDS I can put 7/10 rounds from my 9mm in a four inch black circle.... (In well under ten seconds) Now I appreciate that facing an armed assailant or someone endangering the welfare of an innocent dramatically changes the dynamic, I find it hard to believe that a disabling...ie. non-lethal shot couldn't be delivered.

But I'd be second guessing....

 

[shadowshiv]

It seems obvious that tasers are limited by the RCMP for use on white innocent victims while lethal force is more appropriate for natives....

It's so very difficult to second-guess the dynamics of the moment. Questions that must only take microseconds have to asked and answered. Who is in the most immediate danger? Is there an alternative available?

I wish cops would learn to shoot. At 25 YARDS I can put 7/10 rounds from my 9mm in a four inch black circle.... (In well under ten seconds) Now I appreciate that facing an armed assailant or someone endangering the welfare of an innocent dramatically changes the dynamic, I find it hard to believe that a disabling...ie. non-lethal shot couldn't be delivered.

But I'd be second guessing....

I believe they are trained to shoot the easiest parts to hit(which would be the torso). It would be difficult to hit a "non-lethal" part of the human body, such as the arm, as it is flailing about.

Also, there really isn't a true non-lethal place that can be hit. A person can be hit in the arm or the leg and die from blood loss because an artery was hit.

 

[MikeyDB]

Shadowshiv

You are correct, the police agencies I'm most familiar with shoot for center of mass...ie. center of torso.... If you're attempting to transmit he maximum amount of energy from the round to the assailant, you have a far better chance of stopping that individual by making sure the energy from the expended round is delivered to the point of maximum efficiency...which is the center of the torso. Be that as it may, I feel reasonably confident that a well-trained armed intervenor would be able to put a round in the objects hip or thigh and effectively immobilize the individual. I know this is difficult, in the IPSC routines we practice, the "A" zones are center of the chest and middle of the forehead. The issue for me is that despite what you may see on TV, in the real world, many (thousands) of people have been shot in an appendage and lived. It's tough to chase after someone when your leg is broken.....

 

[shadowshiv]

Shadowshiv

You are correct, the police agencies I'm most familiar with shoot for center of mass...ie. center of torso.... If you're attempting to transmit he maximum amount of energy from the round to the assailant, you have a far better chance of stopping that individual by making sure the energy from the expended round is delivered to the point of maximum efficiency...which is the center of the torso. Be that as it may, I feel reasonably confident that a well-trained armed intervenor would be able to put a round in the objects hip or thigh and effectively immobilize the individual. I know this is difficult, in the IPSC routines we practice, the "A" zones are center of the chest and middle of the forehead. The issue for me is that despite what you may see on TV, in the real world, many (thousands) of people have been shot in an appendage and lived. It's tough to chase after someone when your leg is broken.....

That is true. What they show on television is quite far-fetched.

That being said, in the two or three seconds that you think to change the location of your shot you could end up dead. It is amazing how quickly something can happen, and the average person's reaction time is just that. Two or three seconds. It could mean the difference between life or death.

 

[MikeyDB]

Shadowshiv

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but... in the shooting sports, in IPSC in particular it's part of the qualification to secure your "Black Badge" (demonstration of safe handling and complete control of your firearm) to draw from the holster and shoot two "A" zone hits in under two seconds. My own time was 1.2 sec.

Part of the reason why "gun-control" is so nefarious a concept is because the average person...someone who's never held never mind fired a high powered handgun has any real appreciation for the skills required. A "second" during an IPSC competition is a long time..... I've shot target with both my handguns in friendly matches with local police and quite frankly ...they stink! Municipalities won't pay for training and practice...the money required for ammunition and practice. The consequence is that most police officers have only ever shot their qualifying rounds.... This year I've already fired two thousand 9mm rounds and a couple of thousand twenty-two.... If we're going to give police officers the means to apply deadly force...it seems entirely appropriate to make damn sure they know what they're doing! I have no difficulty with police having that responsibility, all I'm suggesting is that we fund them sufficiently so that a half-second choice of point of impact can be made and executed efficiently.

 

[Colpy]

It seems obvious that tasers are limited by the RCMP for use on white innocent victims while lethal force is more appropriate for natives....

It's so very difficult to second-guess the dynamics of the moment. Questions that must only take microseconds have to asked and answered. Who is in the most immediate danger? Is there an alternative available?

I wish cops would learn to shoot. At 25 YARDS I can put 7/10 rounds from my 9mm in a four inch black circle.... (In well under ten seconds) Now I appreciate that facing an armed assailant or someone endangering the welfare of an innocent dramatically changes the dynamic, I find it hard to believe that a disabling...ie. non-lethal shot couldn't be delivered.

But I'd be second guessing....

I agree completely, Mikey..............until you got to the second last sentence.

This seems like the perfect situation for the Taser..........but that is, again, second guessing. I was trying to avoid cracks about the misuse of the Taser....but I don't think they are undeserved, the overuse of tasers against non-threats is completely outrageous.

You have to remember a couple of things though........first of all, you are into the art of using firearms. Most uniformed, armed individuals are definitely NOT! Therefore they are simply unwilling to dedicate the time, energy, or expense into learning the weapon past what is required to get through qualifications.

Secondly, armed individuals are responsible for every round fired..........you could, if calm, shoot a guy in the kneecap 7 times out of 10. And where did the other 3 rounds go? AND, most non-lethal points of aim would not stop a bullet.........thus the rounds over-penetrate, and continue on their course.......

Thirdly, as you recognize, shooting a stationary target in the calm, focused environment of a range is one hell of a lot different than shooting a moving target in the screaming stress of a life-threatening situation on the street......and EVERYONE does exactly as they are (and should be) trained.....shoot centre-mass.

My boss at Brinks in the Training Dep't once had an opportunity to shoot against one of the new training mechanisms......A situation is played out on film projected on a sheet in front of you..........you are to react and live-fire throughout the scenario. Boss-man was an adequate, although not great, shot, and a veteran of IPSC. A guy opened up on him from a range of 12 feet.....Boss man drew and emptied his S&W 4046, MISSING 9 times, and striking the guy dead centre in the neck once.

He said it was so real his hands were sweating and shaking.

 

[MikeyDB]

Colpy

Yes I agree a hunert percent..

Shooting bullseye is useful insofar as training sight picture and breathing (within the context of a non-adversarial scenario) but when the targets are shooting back...that dramatically changes the dynamics! In this (the cited article) the assailant had a knife?....and I'm betting that a person like you (trained and familiar with firearms use) would have been able to deliver a non-lethal round. I'm confident that I could. I have the advantage of many years of training by some of the best instructors to ever handle firearms and been involved in a shooting war. Would you entertain the possibility that police agencies "ought" to strive for higher efficiency or are you satisfied that we have young men and women roaming the streets in uniforms armed with 40S&W and nine millimeter high capacity handguns...who have the necessary training?

Now I realize it's TV...but I get fuming at epidodes of "Cops" and "reality" shows that air video tape of officers emptying their firearms at assailants as close as twenty feet...and hitting nothing!....Sometimes there's return fire but in a great many instances, the State Trooper or Highway Patrol officer has a clear field of fire and little or no concerns regarding background... (penetration).

 

[L Gilbert]

2 TRAINED RCMP with firearms against one 21 yr old with a knife and lethal force HAD to be used? No chance of handicapping the youngster with non-lethal shots? Gimme a break. Can't RCMP shoot accurately anymore? Aren't they trained to subdue people anymore? Apparently not. It seems to be multiple taser uses or lethal weapons fire.
Don't police use batons or nightsticks anymore? I would go against any untrained person with a knife vefore I'd even think about going against a trained person with a nightstick or baton.

 

[MikeyDB]

Hi Les!

In London Ontario where I live there's a detachment of the RCMP and I've had occaision to shoot competatively against them. They were far superior to the local police and better (more accurate) than OPP. It's all but impossible to know how an individual in a lethal situation will react, whether that's the perpetrator or the authorty involved. I have a bit more than average appreciation for firearms use and shoot at a marksman level (pistol) so my criticism as Colpy has pointed out is a tad unfair. Unless you've been placed in high-stress situations (some of the most stressful are domestic disputes) you don't know how you're going to react. Sure there are procedures and policies and there are some efforts made to prepare people for the dealiest of encounters....but they're only coffee-room banter until the ca ca hits the fan!

I agree that a single trained individual with a baton or similar weapon (four-cell Maglite) might have the skill and means to effect a non-lethal intervention but when the blood gets pounding and the adrenaline is pumping....making decisions in the moment can be very tough!

A sad event.

 

[L Gilbert]

Hi Les!

In London Ontario where I live there's a detachment of the RCMP and I've had occaision to shoot competatively against them. They were far superior to the local police and better (more accurate) than OPP. It's all but impossible to know how an individual in a lethal situation will react, whether that's the perpetrator or the authorty involved. I have a bit more than average appreciation for firearms use and shoot at a marksman level (pistol) so my criticism as Colpy has pointed out is a tad unfair. Unless you've been placed in high-stress situations (some of the most stressful are domestic disputes) you don't know how you're going to react. Sure there are procedures and policies and there are some efforts made to prepare people for the dealiest of encounters....but they're only coffee-room banter until the ca ca hits the fan!

I agree that a single trained individual with a baton or similar weapon (four-cell Maglite) might have the skill and means to effect a non-lethal intervention but when the blood gets pounding and the adrenaline is pumping....making decisions in the moment can be very tough!

A sad event.

Yes it is sad, but as I said, aren't the RCMP TRAINED to be able to keep their heads in extreme circumstances as well as being TRAINED in non-lethal armed and not-armed hand to hand?
It's just like almost everything else in Canada these days; quality of workmanship sucks badly.

 

[MikeyDB]

L. Gilbert

I'm afraid you've struck a resonant chord in my thinking with these remarks. Our societies have become infatuated with the fastest the biggest the easiest and the cheapest! While some will argue that "We have to deal with the Afhanistan issue and we have to deal with this issue or that issue.... we have opted as a society to legitimize the use of tasers and in some circumstances lethal force....as the most expeditious solution. From the death of the backyard DIY (do it yourselfer) who could spend an afternoon servicing your car or fixing things up around the house....we've become a "Dispose of it" tribe unprepared to expend the time energy and resources it takes to apply other strategies to life's issues.

 

[L Gilbert]

Yeah. It seems to be more CONVENIENT to just taser someone 12 times or shoot them full of holes than to actually use a little effort to disarm and/or disable them. Everything seems to be about convenience these days.

 

[#juan]

In the last while there have been a few cases of mounties shooting someone when something less lethal was probably called for. That airport case where the Polish guy was tasered and died is a good example. Surely four, big, strapping, officers could have subdued one man without using a taser. It almost seems like they don't want to mess up their tunics. RCMP officers used to be trained to disarm someone with a knife. Do they not get that training anymore? I think, with a fourteen shot pistol, I could have stopped that guy without killing him.

 

[lone wolf]

Every time I hear RCMP and Indian, I think of bullets that entered the tailgate of a Suburban, made hard right turns, then became perfectly symmetrical leaden splatter in two kevlar vests. Wish I could recall where it was in BC.

 

[MikeyDB]

Hey Lone Wolf...

The RCMP aren't the only police force with trigger happy goons. The OPP shot and killed a young fellow Dudley George...because he might have had a gun....he didn't....the then Premier of the Province was cited as urging the OPP to take whatever action necessary to bring the Ipperwash "standoff" to a speedy resolution and whenever governments want something done quickly they have no qualms in useing lethal force.

 

[lone wolf]

Hey Lone Wolf...

The RCMP aren't the only police force with trigger happy goons. The OPP shot and killed a young fellow Dudley George...because he might have had a gun....he didn't....the then Premier of the Province was cited as urging the OPP to take whatever action necessary to bring the Ipperwash "standoff" to a speedy resolution and whenever governments want something done quickly they have no qualms in useing lethal force.

Oh ... you mean the guy who said "I want the f*****g Indians out of the park" ... my ex-MLA one Micheal D Harass. Haven't forgot Ipperwash, Mikey ... or the deceased fall guy. I have my own personal grievances with Mr Harris - for which I entertained CSIS (or did they entertain me?) just shortly after 9/11....

 

[Lineman]

It's very simple, when an RCMP officer or any other policeman with his gun drawn tells you to "Stop, drop the knife, and lay on the ground" you do as your told. If you make a threatening gesture towards an officer with a weapon then expect to be shot.
If their guns are drawn it's because there is a threat. Shooting people in arms and legs and shoulders or wheeling your way through a fight with a baton and some Kung-Fu moves is nothing but Hollywood bull.