How Similar things are Today as they were Yesterday:

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Stumbled apon this little tid bit of information in regards to WWII and Nazi Germany's reasoning for their position in the war, which got me to thinking about how our current governments are operating: (See if you can notice some similarities)

Why Germans Supported Hitler, Part 2
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0704a.asp

....... The People’s Court had been established by Hitler as part of the government’s war on terrorism after the terrorist firebombing of the German parliament building. Displeased with the independence of the judiciary in the trials of the suspected Reichstag terrorists, Hitler had set up the People’s Court to ensure that terrorists and traitors would receive the “proper” verdict and punishment. Judicial proceedings were conducted in secret for reasons of national security, which is why Freisler threw Hans’s and Sophie’s parents out of the courtroom when they tried to enter.

At the trial, Freisler railed at the three young people before him, accusing them of being ungrateful traitors for having opposed their government in the midst of the war. His rant went to the core of why many Germans supported Hitler during World War II.

From the first grade in public (i.e., government) schools, it was ingrained in German children that, during times of war, it was the duty of every German to come to the support of his country, which, in the minds of the German officials, was synonymous with the German government. Once a war was under way, the time for discussion and debate was over, at least until the war was over. Opposition to the war would demoralize the troops, it was said, and, therefore, hurt the war effort. Opposing the government (and the troops) in wartime, therefore, was considered treasonous.

Keep in mind that at the time the Scholls were caught distributing their anti-war and anti-government leaflets — 1943 — Germany was fighting a war for its survival on two fronts: the Eastern front against the Soviet Union and the Western front against Britain and the United States. Thousands of German soldiers were dying on the battlefield, especially in the Soviet Union. Whether they agreed with the war effort or not, the German people were expected to support the troops, which meant supporting the war effort.

Lies and wars of aggression

One might object that, since Germany was the aggressor in the conflict, the German people should have refused to support the war. That objection, however, ignores an important point: that in the minds of many Germans, Germany was not the aggressor in World War II but rather the defending nation. After all, that’s what they had been told by their government officials.

An aggressor nation will inevitably try to manipulate events so as to appear to be the victimized nationthat is, the nation that is defending itself against aggression. In that way, government officials can tell the citizenry, “We are innocent! We were just minding our own business when our nation was attacked.” Naturally, the citizenry can then assume that there was nothing that could have been done to prevent the war and will be more willing to defend their nation against the attackers.

That is exactly what happened in Germany’s invasion of Poland, which precipitated World War II. After several weeks in which tensions between the two nations were heightened, German soldiers on the Polish-German border were attacked by Polish troops. Hitler followed the time-honored script by dramatically announcing that Germany had been attacked by Poland, requiring Germany to defend herself with a counterattack and an invasion of Poland.

There was one big problem, however — one that the German people were unaware of: the Polish troops who had done the attacking were actually German troops dressed up in Polish uniforms. In other words, German officials had lied about the cause of the war.

Now, some might argue that Germans should not have automatically believed Hitler, especially knowing that throughout history rulers had lied about matters relating to war. But Germans took the position that they had the right and the duty to place their trust in their government officials. After all, Germans felt, their government officials had access to information that the people did not have. Many Germans felt that their government would never lie to them about a matter as important as war.

Also, keep in mind that under the Nazi system Hitler had the sole prerogative of deciding whether to send the nation into war. While he might consult with the Reichstag or advise it of his plans, he did not need its consent to declare and wage war against another nation. He — and he alone — had the power to decide whether to go to war. Therefore, given that Hitler was not required to secure a declaration of war from the Reichstag before going to war against Poland, there was no real way to test whether his claims of a Polish attack were in fact true.

After the German “counterattack” against Poland, England and France declared war on Germany. (Oddly, neither country declared war on the Soviet Union, which also invaded Poland soon after Germany did.) Thus, in the minds of the German people, England and France were coming to the aid of the aggressor — Poland — necessitating Germany’s defending itself against all three nations.

Loyalty and obeying orders

German soldiers, of course, were also expected to do their duty and follow the orders of their commander in chief. Under Germany’s system, it was not up to the individual soldier to reach his own independent judgment about whether Germany was the aggressor in the conflict or whether Hitler had lied about the reasons for going to war. Thus, German soldiers, both Protestant and Catholic, understood that they could kill Polish soldiers with a clear conscience because, again, it was not up to the individual soldier to decide on the justice of the war. He could entrust that decision to his superior officers and political leaders and simply assume that the order to invade was morally and legally justified.

Once troops were committed to battle, most German civilians understood their duty — support the troops who were now fighting and dying on the battlefield for their country, for the fatherland. The time for debating and discussing the causes of the war would have to wait until the war’s end. What mattered, once the war was under way, was winning.

....... Recognizing and opposing evil

Some might argue that Germans, unlike people in other nations, should not have trusted and supported their government officials during the war because it was obvious that Hitler and his henchmen were evil. The problem with that argument, however, is that throughout the 1930s many Germans and many foreigners did not automatically come to the conclusion that Hitler was evil. On the contrary, as we saw in part one of this article, many of them saw Hitler as exercising the same kind of strong leadership that Franklin Roosevelt was exercising to bring the United States out of the Great Depression and, in fact, as implementing many of the same kinds of programs that Roosevelt was implementing in the United States. (For more on this point, see the excellent book published last year Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt’s America, Mussolini’s Italy, and Hitler’s Germany, 1933–1939, by Wolfgang Schivelbusch.)

Moreover, while it’s true that throughout the 1930s Hitler was harassing, abusing, and mistreating German Jews, many people all over the world didn’t care, because anti-Semitism was not limited to Germany but instead extended to many parts of the globe.

Don’t forget, for example, about how the Roosevelt administration used immigration controls to prevent German Jews from immigrating to the United States.

Even as late as 1938 U.S. officials refused to let German Jews disembark at Miami Harbor from the SS St. Louis, knowing that they would have to be returned to Hitler’s Germany.

Even after the outbreak of the war, when the severity of the Nazi threat to Jews skyrocketed, the constantly shifting maze of U.S. immigration rules and regulations prevented Anne Frank and her family, along with lots of other Jewish families, from immigrating to the United States.

Some might say that the German people should have ceased supporting their government once the Holocaust began. There are two big problems with that argument, however. First, the German people didn’t know what was going on in the death camps and, second, they didn’t want to know. After all, the death camps and the Holocaust didn’t get established until after the war was well under way and when Hitler’s power over the German people was absolute — and brutal.

How was the average German supposed to know about what was going on inside the death camps? Suppose a German walked up to a concentration camp, knocked on the gates, and said, “I have heard that you are doing bad things to people inside this camp. I would like to come in and inspect the premises.” What do you think would have been the answer? Most likely, he would have been invited inside the compound, as a permanent guest with a very shortened life span.

After all, what government is going to permit its citizens to know its most secret operations, especially during times of war? Not even the U.S. government does that.

For example, what do you think would happen if an American citizen today discovered the location of one of the CIA’s secret overseas detention facilities and then knocked on the front door, saying, “I’ve heard rumors that you are torturing people here. I would like to come in and inspect the premises to see whether those rumors are true.”

Does anyone honestly think that the CIA would let the person inside those supersecret facilities? Now, imagine a situation in which the United States is fighting a major war for its survival against, say, China on one side, and an alliance of Middle East countries on the other. Suppose also that the United States is almost certain to lose the war and that foreign troops are slowly but surely closing in on the U.S. president and his cabinet. What are the chances that the CIA would permit an American citizen to inspect the insides of its prisoner facilities under those circumstances? Indeed, what are the chances that any American is going to make such a demand under those circumstances?

Most Germans did not want to know what was going on inside the concentration camps. If they knew that bad things were occurring, their consciences might start bothering them, which might motivate them to take action to bring the wrongdoing to a stop, which could be dangerous. It was easier — and safer — to look the other way and simply entrust such important matters to their government officials. In that way, it was believed, the government, rather than the individual citizen, would bear the legal and moral consequences for wrongful acts that the government was committing secretly.

The story of the White Rose is one of the most remarkable stories of courage in history. At the trial, Christoph Probst asked Freisler to spare his life, an understandable request given that his wife had recently given birth to their third child. Neither Sophie nor her brother Hans flinched. Sophie bluntly told Friesler that the war was lost and that German soldiers were being sacrificed for nothing, a statement that, from the looks on the faces of the military brass attending the trial in the film, momentarily hit home. She said that one day Freisler and his ilk would be sitting in the dock being judged by others for their crimes. She bluntly told him, “Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don’t dare express themselves as we did.”

They were found guilty and beheaded.....

but does anybody notice any similarities of what occured within Germany in WWII, their mentality and what started them off to the path of war? Is there anybody today who seem the currently existing similarities of then compared to today?

Replace Germany with United States, replace Fatherland with Homeland, replace Jews with Muslims, replace Concentration Camps with Secret Detention Facilities, replace People's Court with Guantanamo Bay War-Crimes Trials, replace National Security with.... National Security, and I bet you could easily replace or relate a few more things above with how things are going on today and what are your conclusions?

Touchy Topic? You bet.

History will repeat until we learn from our past mistakes.
 

MikeyDB

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Given the caliber of people's thinking today....repeating history's most horrendous mistakes appears virtually inevitable.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Given the caliber of people's thinking today....repeating history's most horrendous mistakes appears virtually inevitable.

The thing that bugs me is that many will throw you on the fires for even trying to relate the US/G. Bush to Nazi Germany/Hitler and say he is nowhere near a relation, when if you even look at the history written by the victors (us) matches almost par to what Nazi Germany went through.... and yet here we go again, thinking we're not even in the same position as Nazi Germany, that us Western Societies are the victims, that we were the ones attacked without any reason, that we're the innocent ones in this story book of nightmares..... and then we follow suit to exactly what happened before.

Our societies won't believe that our governments are torturing, singling out people based on their religions/races, and if they do, they think it's justified for our own security.

Well if we keep this up, it'll just be like Nazi Germany and in the end, we'll be bombed back to the stone ages, and us, the citizens, will be burrying the bodies we allowed our governments to make.... we'll be labeled the bad guys we are, and for the safety of the rest of the world, we'll be stopped, one way or another.

So.... should we stop ourselves, or allow other nations to stop us, for us, for our own good, because we chose to ignore?

This is why I will not enter the US until all of this is resolved, this is why I have distain for the US and their current president, and this is why I continually relate the two, because both the US's actions and the actions of Nazi Germany are almost identical, just spun with a little democratic hype and to use WWII as their defence for attacking first, when WWII's examples should have been used much more wisely.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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If you think that's sad, wait until you hear the lame excuses for doing the worst things imaginable. "I was just following orders". While there will be a few hangings, those responsible will walk away from this, just as they did in Germany so long ago.
 

Colpy

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I hate to interrupt this little love fest and circle jerk....but you guys are full of it.

You know, I been thinking since doing a long involved argument with Scott Free over his comparison of China with the USA......with China coming out on top.

How can that be?

The only answer I can come up with is that truely harsh repression is so foreign to the mind of the comfortable western liberal, that they simply can't recognize it. That is a very good thing, a testament to justice in this society BUT.....

They can't tell the difference between a very peaceful pro-democracy demonstration in Tianamen Square being broken up with tanks and assault rifles with at least 2000 dead.............and people throwing rocks at a WTO Conference, attacking the police, getting pepper-sprayed and arrested.

They can't tell the difference between the "terrorist" attack on the Reichstag, in which noone died, in which the alleged perpetrator was himself a German, and in it is extremely possible it was done by the gov't themselves.....and the terrorist attack on the USA, in which 2500 people died, which was a conspiracy launched by a number of individuals based, trained and supported from a foreign nation.

Just one more point: this is so foreign to the experience of the innocent and the naive that they can't tell the difference between a society that beheads university students for producing anti-war pamphlets.................and today's society, in which GW Bush TWICE meets with the most well-known anti-war activist of all...Cindy Sheean.

TRY, please, please TRY to get some sense of proportion.

Study a little history.

Look around.
 

Scott Free

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You know, I been thinking since doing a long involved argument with Scott Free over his comparison of China with the USA......with China coming out on top.

How can that be?

The only answer I can come up with is that truely harsh repression is so foreign to the mind of the comfortable western liberal, that they simply can't recognize it. That is a very good thing, a testament to justice in this society BUT.....

I find it interesting that you would think your so free. What is it that you can do that the Chinese or Russians can not?
 

Scott Free

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Be a member of "ANY" political party that you desire, not one that's forced upon you by the government.

And what difference does that make when the masters of the political elite are corporations? You can belong to any party but in reality, they are only factions of an existing system of corporatism. The political parties do not bring real issues to the table; they bring appeal to rational, irrational fear, emotion and self-righteousness. Without an educated public there is no perceptible advantage in democracy nor an increase in freedom. If anything, there is less freedom while people scream "liberals this" and "liberals that" completely oblivious to the chains that bind them. The only thing worse than the tyranny of the majority is the tyranny of the ignorant majority and with the destruction of democracy a single party system versus multi-party is indistinguishable IMO. Certainly the single party has economically proven itself.
 
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Colpy

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And what difference does that make when the masters of the political elite are corporations? You can belong to any party but in reality, they are only factions of an existing system of corporatism. The political parties do not bring real issues to the table; they bring appeal to rational, irrational fear, emotion and self-righteousness. Without an educated public there is no perceptible advantage in democracy nor an increase in freedom. If anything, there is less freedom while people scream "liberals this" and "liberals that" completely oblivious to the chains that bind them. The only thing worse than the tyranny of the majority is the tyranny of the ignorant majority and with the destruction of democracy a single party system versus multi-party is indistinguishable IMO. Certainly the single party has economically proven itself.[/quote}

BALONEY!

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that the people don't have the common sense necessary to rule themselves.......that they must be guided by the enlightened, those who have been blessed from above with the inherent knowledge of what is good for all.

Because, of course, in your little rant about the uselessness of democracy when all parties have the same corporate agenda, you conveniently ignore the fact that one is free in this society to set up at political party on the basis of any ideology they please.

Your problem is not really with democracy......it is with the fact that the rest of us are too ignorant to believe as you do, and therefore to put in place a political structure to advance those beliefs.

Arrogance! My God, that is arrogant.

"Democracy is the very worst form of government, except for all the others" Winston Churchill
 

Colpy

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I find it interesting that you would think your so free. What is it that you can do that the Chinese or Russians can not?

1. I can join any one of a number of political parties, choosing the one that best reflects my own beliefs.

2. I can vote for the candidate that I believe will best represent me.

3. I can say what I please about the gov't...........short of inciting violence.

4. I can start a newspaper, and write in it what I please.

5. I can own some serious weapons

6. IF I am arrested, I actually get to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

7. IF I am arrested, I actually have a right to a defense.

8. I can gather where I please, to worship whatever I please, led by whomever I please.

9. I can move about freely.

10. I can leave the country, and return, without penalty.

11. I can protest injustice peacefully, without being murdered in the street by the police.

12. I can expect to be secure from gov't intervention in my home, unless they have legally obtained a warrant, which is issued only if there is evidence a crime has been committed.

12. I can expect trial by a jury of peers.

13. I am allowed to remain silent under interogation.

The above laid out just as quickly as I could type.....there are soooo many more, but I think I hit most of the high points.......
 

Scott Free

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1. I can join any one of a number of political parties, choosing the one that best reflects my own beliefs.

Limited choice isn't the same as real choice. You can settle on a party - true, but in China you can settle on a leader too.

2. I can vote for the candidate that I believe will best represent me.

In China you can vote for the party leader that will best represent you.

3. I can say what I please about the gov't...........short of inciting violence.

Really? Try publishing your opinions (true or not). You don't understand our slander laws very well if you think that.

4. I can start a newspaper, and write in it what I please.

Yeah right - try it. Go ahead, seriously. You'll end up in front of a tribunal so fast your head will spin.

5. I can own some serious weapons

Not in Canada, not unless your a cop - aka party member.

6. IF I am arrested, I actually get to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

So your not native then? Your a party member I take it.

7. IF I am arrested, I actually have a right to a defense.

That depends on what your arrested for.

8. I can gather where I please, to worship whatever I please, led by whomever I please.

Same as China. If you try and start chaos you'll land your ass in jail but that will happen here too.

9. I can move about freely.

Same as China.

10. I can leave the country, and return, without penalty.

Same as China.

11. I can protest injustice peacefully, without being murdered in the street by the police.

False. Our gestapo murder people. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

12. I can expect to be secure from gov't intervention in my home, unless they have legally obtained a warrant, which is issued only if there is evidence a crime has been committed.

False, police in Canada do not need a warrant - that's the US.

12. I can expect trial by a jury of peers.

Your not doing that.

13. I am allowed to remain silent under interogation.

Sure, but the police can badger you for days if they feel like it; which means you might have the right but you won't be able to do it (like so many of our "rights")

The above laid out just as quickly as I could type.....there are soooo many more, but I think I hit most of the high points.......

And look how deluded it was?
 

Colpy

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Limited choice isn't the same as real choice. You can settle on a party - true, but in China you can settle on a leader too.
In China you can vote for the party leader that will best represent you.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, (wipes eyes) that is HILARIIOUS!

READ a little. And, BTW, if you don't like the parties offered START A NEW ONE!

(Try that in China)



Really? Try publishing your opinions (true or not). You don't understand our slander laws very well if you think that.

Obviously, you don't understand. I can, and have, severely criticized the gov't in print. funny, I'm not residing in a prison.........SLANDER, BTW, can only be invoked by an individual, NOT the government.........

Yeah right - try it. Go ahead, seriously. You'll end up in front of a tribunal so fast your head will spin.

WHAT tribunal? This is just silly............

Not in Canada, not unless your a cop - aka party member.

I am disgusted by Canada's gun laws, but I own a couple of dozen guns.........including a bunch of handguns. Good luck in China.


So your not native then? Your a party member I take it.

(sigh) NO, EVERYBODY is innocent until proven guilty, believe it or not.


That depends on what your arrested for.

Care to explain that?

Same as China. If you try and start chaos you'll land your ass in jail but that will happen here too.

No, in China you must take part only in approved religions (ask the Falun Gong), your church must be an approved building, and the preacher must be vetted by the State.

you really don't know much about this stuff, do you?


Same as China.



Same as China.

Wrong and wrong. Simple as that.

False. Our gestapo murder people. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Oh RIGHT!

False, police in Canada do not need a warrant - that's the US.

Wrong.

Your not doing that.

Yes, on any serious offense in which I may be sentenced to prison time, I have a right to be tried in front of a jury.


Sure, but the police can badger you for days if they feel like it; which means you might have the right but you won't be able to do it (like so many of our "rights")

WHAT! (sigh) wrong again. they can't torture you, nor can they hold you without charges.......usually. All you have to do is have the balls to keep your mouth shut. (Yes, I've done it)


And look how deluded it was?

After reading the above, I am confident that I am going to be alright......as long as you consider me deluded.
 

Scott Free

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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, (wipes eyes) that is HILARIIOUS!

READ a little. And, BTW, if you don't like the parties offered START A NEW ONE!

(Try that in China)

Obviously, you don't understand. I can, and have, severely criticized the gov't in print. funny, I'm not residing in a prison.........SLANDER, BTW, can only be invoked by an individual, NOT the government.........

WHAT tribunal? This is just silly............

I am disgusted by Canada's gun laws, but I own a couple of dozen guns.........including a bunch of handguns. Good luck in China.




(sigh) NO, EVERYBODY is innocent until proven guilty, believe it or not.

Care to explain that?

No, in China you must take part only in approved religions (ask the Falun Gong), your church must be an approved building, and the preacher must be vetted by the State.

you really don't know much about this stuff, do you?

Wrong and wrong. Simple as that.

Oh RIGHT!

Wrong.

Yes, on any serious offense in which I may be sentenced to prison time, I have a right to be tried in front of a jury.

WHAT! (sigh) wrong again. they can't torture you, nor can they hold you without charges.......usually. All you have to do is have the balls to keep your mouth shut. (Yes, I've done it)

After reading the above, I am confident that I am going to be alright......as long as you consider me deluded.

Fail.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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How similar things are today as they were yesterday? The Big Lie is still a powerful political weapon. What worked yesterday is likely to work in the same fashion today. It's almost like uniformitarianism. In that respect, propaganda still works the same way it did millennia ago, forget Hitler or other contemporary figures. It's bloody history, as far back as the pen or finger paint goes. It's easy enough to recognize how it happens when we read a textbook, but harder I think (on the grand scale), to isolate ourselves and understand when it is happening to us.

I'd bet as long as there has been governance of any kind, there has been suspicion of that power. In times of conflict (contrived or otherwise) however, the group think that makes such a nice tag for the writers of polemic persuasion is academic. Appeal to emotion, use symbols, keep on message, and repeat a lie long enough until everyone believes it. Then you can do pretty much whatever you like.

All politicians are working propaganda, that's what "spin" is. Now we have focused group phrases, private investment in spin, and a world wide web that has surpassed the printing press as the innovation of all time for information dispersal.

So things are similar today, more sophisticated by technology, rather than technique. Why re-invent the wheel when the current paradigm still works so well???
 

dancing-loon

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Oct 8, 2007
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Given the caliber of people's thinking today....repeating history's most horrendous mistakes appears virtually inevitable.

It's been in progress for quite a while already, Mikey. Haven't you noticed?
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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I hate to interrupt this little love fest and circle jerk....but you guys are full of it.

Hince why we're circle jerking.... Blue Ball can be fatal I'm told.

You know, I been thinking since doing a long involved argument with Scott Free over his comparison of China with the USA......with China coming out on top.

How can that be?

Simple, the type of democracy we are all used to isn't perfect and thus leaves room for problems and faults.

The only answer I can come up with is that truely harsh repression is so foreign to the mind of the comfortable western liberal, that they simply can't recognize it. That is a very good thing, a testament to justice in this society BUT.....

They can't tell the difference between a very peaceful pro-democracy demonstration in Tianamen Square being broken up with tanks and assault rifles with at least 2000 dead.............and people throwing rocks at a WTO Conference, attacking the police, getting pepper-sprayed and arrested.

Doesn't sound very different from what we have in our own countries. How do you know they were peaceful demostrations? You have the media in China and the media of those in the protests.... it's like a rape case where you have one sides word to trust over the other.

Not to mention that even if we are more ahead of them in these aspects of dealing with protestors and such, that it wasn't too long ago in the 60's when the US sent in the National Guard on university students and shot them. So much for that great democracy and freedom of speech.

They can't tell the difference between the "terrorist" attack on the Reichstag, in which noone died, in which the alleged perpetrator was himself a German, and in it is extremely possible it was done by the gov't themselves.....

Much like many other thigns today which were started by our governments to acomplish their own agendas? Still no difference.

and the terrorist attack on the USA, in which 2500 people died, which was a conspiracy launched by a number of individuals based, trained and supported from a foreign nation.

So sez Bush and his oh-so great intelligence agencies... which told us Osama was in Afghanistan, Saddam has WMD and Iran is developing nukes.... only to say they're not building nukes, but could..... hell any country "Could"

And you make it sound like the US was so innocent in the attack, like there wasn't a reason behind the attack in the first place, or that the US didn't do something to cause them to find a way to attack.

Now it's "Regardless who started the problem, they attacked us.... poor innocent us... let's defend our nation and go on the rampage" ~ Which is still similar in comparison to what occured in WWII.

Just one more point: this is so foreign to the experience of the innocent and the naive that they can't tell the difference between a society that beheads university students for producing anti-war pamphlets.................and today's society, in which GW Bush TWICE meets with the most well-known anti-war activist of all...Cindy Sheean.

Who? Well known indeed.... Cindy isn't doing a good enough job apparently. And meeting with someone is one thing (PR) actually doing something is something totally different.

TRY, please, please TRY to get some sense of proportion.

Study a little history.

Look around.

Indeed... look around... here is the information presented to you, marked down in history... this is the history to be reading. Try and refute the above claims if you can, or accept there are similarities and go from there.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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BALONEY!

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that the people don't have the common sense necessary to rule themselves.......that they must be guided by the enlightened, those who have been blessed from above with the inherent knowledge of what is good for all.

Sounds about right for our current systems of government.... they apparently know what's good for us, that's why they're in the positions they currently are... that's why they don't tell us about anything that they are doing "Because of National Security" and not wanting to scare the public like a bunch of sheep in the dark.

Because, of course, in your little rant about the uselessness of democracy when all parties have the same corporate agenda, you conveniently ignore the fact that one is free in this society to set up at political party on the basis of any ideology they please.

Oh they can let people do that, but they're in the positions to make sure they never see the light of day or get very far off in their goals.... hince why it's always been Democrats/Republicans/Liberals/Conservatives for the last god knows how long. They have the corps in their pockets and the corps know they will give them the best deals, while the new parties are trying to come in and stop their corrupt ways, so they work together to make sure they don't make the ballots, they tell the public "If you vote for them, you're just throwing away your vote"

What kind of democracy is that when you have your leaders telling you what your votes value is and that you either vote for them, or you vote for the other major party, or your voice doesn't get heard? Some Democracy indeed.... fill the public with more ignorance and fear and you keep control, with democratic masks to fool people into thinking they're free
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Hince why we're circle jerking.... Blue Ball can be fatal I'm told.

:)

Simple, the type of democracy we are all used to isn't perfect and thus leaves room for problems and faults.
Oh, absolutely. Not perfect, and unfortunately sliding.....but still soooooo superior to any of the alternatives........we require some serious work on our system. But one of the problems is people that can't see the inherent good in our system....to fix something you have to work on it, not just beat it until it falls apart.

This system will never be improved by those who think it is no better than the worst tyrannies on earth.

Doesn't sound very different from what we have in our own countries. How do you know they were peaceful demostrations? You have the media in China and the media of those in the protests.... it's like a rape case where you have one sides word to trust over the other.

Not so.
How many police/military were killed at Tianamen square?

Believe me, the chinese would have publicized every bruise.

Really, it is so self-serving to pretend that you can never know what is going on, that the information of your debate opponent is always incomplete.....there are some things that are facts......and that need to be accepted as such before any debate can go on....

Not to mention that even if we are more ahead of them in these aspects of dealing with protestors and such, that it wasn't too long ago in the 60's when the US sent in the National Guard on university students and shot them. So much for that great democracy and freedom of speech.

Kent State was in 1970. The National Guard troops did not fire on the students on orders. In fact, there is a picture of the officer present beating one of the firing Guardsmen with his baton, trying to get him to cease fire.

When I was learning to train guards, one of the exercises our instructers did on the range was to give the order to the firing line to fire.....then (on the instructions of the guy teaching us) I went down the line screaming "cease fire" in their ears. Not one did.

If you are in a group of allies, and one guy opens fire, EVERYBODY does, and it is difficult to make them stop. That was the point, that each man had to be taught to judge for himself, to fire or not on his own decisions, NOT to shoot and keep shooting just because if his friend is shooting, he should be shooting to......

I'm not trying to excuse the Guardsmen....but this is hardly the same as rolling tanks in and setting out to kill hundreds of protesters.....at Kent State 4 died........leading to investigations, inquiries, protest songs, it was seen as a mistake and a tragedy.

Much like many other thigns today which were started by our governments to acomplish their own agendas? Still no difference.

Like what?

So sez Bush and his oh-so great intelligence agencies... which told us Osama was in Afghanistan, Saddam has WMD and Iran is developing nukes.... only to say they're not building nukes, but could..... hell any country "Could"

Some things are true, some are not. see above.

And you make it sound like the US was so innocent in the attack, like there wasn't a reason behind the attack in the first place, or that the US didn't do something to cause them to find a way to attack.

What did the USA do? Support the democratic state of Israel?

Pay a CARTEL, for God's sake, a fair price for oil?

Support the Mujahedeen against the USSR in Afghanistan?

Go to war to defend muslims in Kosovo?

Defend an Islamic State against secular Iraq?

Now it's "Regardless who started the problem, they attacked us.... poor innocent us... let's defend our nation and go on the rampage" ~ Which is still similar in comparison to what occured in WWII.

BS....we already established above the "attack" on Germans was staged....really.

When attacked, there is but one alternative......hit back harder.


Who? Well known indeed.... Cindy isn't doing a good enough job apparently. And meeting with someone is one thing (PR) actually doing something is something totally different.

OK, it was PR...........you can't differentiate between Bush, who needed to use Sheean as a PR stunt, and Hitler, who just chopped off their heads?

This is EXACTLY the problem.