Should Canada unhitch its American wagon?

[EagleSmack]

Hmmm.... sounds like a good idea. The trend these days seems to be about security more then money, so if we cut all ties with the US, that would also reduce the threats that come with the US, and are currently affecting our country today, both economically and security-wise.

And what threats are coming from the US. I mean real threats...not the made up fantasy invasion threats.

An enemy of Canada? Meh..... doesn't really matter.

Nor will it happen. Sorry.

Well there are many other countries we can trade with besides China, but for filling in that big marketing gap left by the US, technically China could do.

Yes there are. You better start building up your Maritime Fleet and be prepared for all of the costs that comes with it.

Well we do have your country's example to learn from to avoid that happening as badly as it occured with your country.... but either way, no matter who we choose to deal with, there's always going to be some screwing over to be done by one side or another.... the lesser of two or three evils if you will.

But you will find that you are going to get the biggest screwing of all because it will cost you more to trade with countries like China.

So just because we're sick and tired of the US screwing us over and taking our resources and we're aware of the fact that the US is doing this, hince the reason why there is talk about cutting trade, you think we're that stupid to actually just switch to another country blindly and just let them do the same thing?

Come on now, stop being so silly.

What is silly is to really believe that Canada will cut or reduce trade with the US. Now that is silly. Canada is in no position whatsoever to get the upperhand on China. Not ever. They will suck you dry and hand you scraps. You will become dependent on those scraps. Try getting the upperhand on them and there will be no deal. You will bend and break.

 

[EagleSmack]

Born of the same building blocks, the same parents, close to the same history, Canada and the US are more like siblings than any other nations on this planet can claim. Fraternal twins, damned and blessed at the same time, to be ever compared to one another. It breeds a certain amount of bitterness and spite in either twin. A desire to try to set yourself apart. Especially for the quiet twin that no one notices (as you so kindly point out so often). It's not a virus, it's basic psych. And it's not that astounding if you stop and think about it. It's pretty natural actually.

Some truth in this for sure. I always thought we were a lot like Canadians. It never bothered me. However some Canadians go bonkers when the same comparison is made. Therein lies the difference. If a person who isn't from N. America told a group of Americans that they are a lot like Canadians you would not get a response at all. If the same guy said to Canadians they are a lot like Americans there would be a lot of huffing and puffing. Maybe it is a red head mentality.

 

[MikeyDB]

Eaglesmack

Wasn't it the goal of capitalism to bring "freedom" to humanity? Wasn't it the promise of the right of self-directed self-interest that was the pathway to 'democracy'?.... Now that the Chinese are holding an awful lot of American paper.... now this capitalism this trade-giant is the bad guy on the block?

Selective vision in a selective historical perspective.

I agree though that Canada couldn't and shouldn't entertain any complex trade agreements with China...you know the kind...they'll make a big fuss over trade agreements and "partnership" then when the going gets tough...well they'll just charge a sur-charge at the border or apply some other measure not found in that agreement...

Seen it done before....

 

[EagleSmack]

In a nut shell, yeah... what he said.

Eagle your response was more of a "You'll miss us when we're gone.... you don't know what you had!" ~ And like any low self-esteme beaten girl, we're expected to believe "Oh, well maybe they're right, maybe they changed.... maybe this is love..... maybe this is as good as I can get." Only to come back to it all again and get the whiskey bottle to the head again, not learning our lesson.

Plenty of other Fish in the Sea. Perhaps we're just tired of dating the football jock of the world and are now getting into the nerdy computer guys from Asia.... now that's where the bling is.

You have not left the big bad jock yet now have you. At this time you aren't in any position to either. It is amazing how you want to so willingly subjugate your country to Asia to presumedly spite the US.

Agreed. There is a lot of bling in Asia...but its not yours. If you want to contribute your petty bling to their's by all means go ahead. They will gladly take it and anything else you lay on their altar.

I read an article about how China was interested in a cross Canadian oil pipeline to the Pacific so they could buy your oil. They were going to invest money but eventually backed out of investing money in Canada because it wasn't worth it for them. The Canadian spokesman said they were more interested in taking our technology than anything else. So it looks as if your country will have to bend a little more for them to screw you as you desire them to.

 

[darkbeaver]

Clueless in America

By Bob Herbert

22/04/08 "New York Times" -- -- We don’t hear a great deal about education in the presidential campaign. It’s much too serious a topic to compete with such fun stuff as Hillary tossing back a shot of whiskey, or Barack rolling a gutter ball.

The nation’s future may depend on how well we educate the current and future generations, but (like the renovation of the nation’s infrastructure, or a serious search for better sources of energy) that can wait. At the moment, no one seems to have the will to engage any of the most serious challenges facing the U.S.

An American kid drops out of high school every 26 seconds. That’s more than a million every year, a sign of big trouble for these largely clueless youngsters in an era in which a college education is crucial to maintaining a middle-class quality of life — and for the country as a whole in a world that is becoming more hotly competitive every day.

Ignorance in the United States is not just bliss, it’s widespread. A recent survey of teenagers by the education advocacy group Common Core found that a quarter could not identify Adolf Hitler, a third did not know that the Bill of Rights guaranteed freedom of speech and religion, and fewer than half knew that the Civil War took place between 1850 and 1900.

“We have one of the highest dropout rates in the industrialized world,” said Allan Golston, the president of U.S. programs for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. In a discussion over lunch recently he described the situation as “actually pretty scary, alarming.”

Roughly a third of all American high school students drop out. Another third graduate but are not prepared for the next stage of life — either productive work or some form of post-secondary education.

When two-thirds of all teenagers old enough to graduate from high school are incapable of mastering college-level work, the nation is doing something awfully wrong.

Mr. Golston noted that the performance of American students, when compared with their peers in other countries, tends to grow increasingly dismal as they move through the higher grades:

“In math and science, for example, our fourth graders are among the top students globally. By roughly eighth grade, they’re in the middle of the pack. And by the 12th grade, U.S. students are scoring generally near the bottom of all industrialized countries.”

Many students get a first-rate education in the public schools, but they represent too small a fraction of the whole.

Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, offered a brutal critique of the nation’s high schools a few years ago, describing them as “obsolete” and saying, “When I compare our high schools with what I see when I’m traveling abroad, I am terrified for our work force of tomorrow.”

Said Mr. Gates: “By obsolete, I don’t just mean that they are broken, flawed or underfunded, though a case could be made for every one of those points. By obsolete, I mean our high schools — even when they’re working as designed — cannot teach all our students what they need to know today.”

The Educational Testing Service, in a report titled “America’s Perfect Storm,” cited three powerful forces that are affecting the quality of life for millions of Americans and already shaping the nation’s future. They are:

• The wide disparity in the literacy and math skills of both the school-age and adult populations. These skills, which play such a tremendous role in the lives of individuals and families, vary widely across racial, ethnic and socioeconomic groups.

• The “seismic changes” in the U.S. economy that have resulted from globalization, technological advances, shifts in the relationship of labor and capital, and other developments.

• Sweeping demographic changes. By 2030, the U.S. population is expected to reach 360 million. That population will be older and substantially more diverse, with immigration having a big impact on both the population as a whole and the work force.

These and so many other issues of crucial national importance require an educated populace if they are to be dealt with effectively. At the moment we are not even coming close to equipping the population with the intellectual tools that are needed.

While we’re effectively standing in place, other nations are catching up and passing us when it comes to educational achievement. You have to be pretty dopey not to see the implications of that.

But, then, some of us are pretty dopey. In the Common Core survey, nearly 20 percent of respondents did not know who the U.S. fought in World War II. Eleven percent thought that Dwight Eisenhower was the president forced from office by the Watergate scandal. Another 11 percent thought it was Harry Truman.

We’ve got work to do.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company


There's a few problems with McSchool but of course it's all done with marketing, ya got to get out there and sell the product. It's all about McWealth and McDevelopement and McFreedom to be McDemocratic.

 

[EagleSmack]

Eaglesmack

Wasn't it the goal of capitalism to bring "freedom" to humanity? Wasn't it the promise of the right of self-directed self-interest that was the pathway to 'democracy'?.... Now that the Chinese are holding an awful lot of American paper.... now this capitalism this trade-giant is the bad guy on the block?

Selective vision in a selective historical perspective.

I agree though that Canada couldn't and shouldn't entertain any complex trade agreements with China...you know the kind...they'll make a big fuss over trade agreements and "partnership" then when the going gets tough...well they'll just charge a sur-charge at the border or apply some other measure not found in that agreement...

Seen it done before....

You aren't getting an argument from me on that. We did it to ourselves.

What is funny is the rush of Canadians that want to be a Chinese vassal state. That is what you will become. Go fot it! Let the Chinese in and then complain to them about unfairness as they scrape the rice from their plates on the floor for you to eat. They WILL own you completely. Then you can talk about how you can beat the Chinese in a war since it will be in your heads how dependent China is on you.

"We'll just cut off their oil and softwood lumber...then they will attack and all the world will come to our aid! It will be wonderful!" :lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

Hey Beve how's it goin...

Got that alternate energy program up and running..?

Anyone who clings to the affectation of "nationalism" is in for a huge culture shock. As the metrics of greed and environmental destruction grow and expand, people will move...because they have to...

The "Tower of Babel" is a lovely story, but it's perhaps a glimpse into the future. I don't care if you're a Moslem or a Jew or a Catholic or a Baptist....it's your preparedness to force me to conform to your "beliefs" that raise my hackles. It's inevitable that the reality of human existence on a rock tumbling through space will become more profoundly apparent than it ever has before as humankind is forced through nature and yes to a significant degree his own past behaviors to deal with a mixing of the cultures and blood of every human being.

Too bad we don't have the skills or the temperament to work past our prejudices and greed.

The construction and testing phase of alternator mk 2 was a success, 700 watts at 14mph now I need to scrounge thirty feet of 3 inch steel pipe and then start another alternator and a water wheel. It's so much work building an electrical empire.

You're instructing the lost generation in this thread, I think you're wasteing your time. haha:lol:

 

[Zzarchov]

Zzarchov

Read really slowly if you have to and use your finger if you must....

When artificial concepts suggest "beauty" can be realized by deforming the human body then that activity is embraced. When "mating" is associated with appearance and the possibility of "getting laid" is bound to the Chevy four-door rather than the two-seater MG...when sexual prowess and demostrable "success" is objectified through a Hummer or a Bentley Rolls Royce or a Lamborghini....the acoutrements of consumption become the symbols of trustworthiness and "suggest" a personality or a quality that may or may not exist as part of the individual sporting that fad...its phoney Zzarchy old boy. When you buy a car to impress the girls and your "friends" it's a phoney temporary and quite fleeting legerdemain your engaged in perpetrating and has nothing to do with who you are as a person. When you believe that your value as a human being is enhanced by wearing a Cross your Heart bra...when high-heals make your legs more shapely (and cause many problems later on) when you're convinced you're feathers will attract a mate and you don't have the wherewithal to deal with life on any other basis than the phoney and the fleeting glamour of fashion...there's not much to your life and that will become apparent readily when you lose your means to perpetuate the myth.

Marketting is a way of substituting myth for reality Zzarchy and a continent of North Americans have embraced myth and substituted fantasy for reality for decades.

Sorry Z try again if you must....

MikeyDB

Read really slowly if you have to and use your finger if you must....

If you think this isn't instinctive natural behaviour present in most species you are wrong.

A hummer or a sports car helping you get the girl? Its no different than any number of ancient rituals of gold ornaments and gemstones

Hell even birds put effort into finding useless shiny items and attracting females with them.

You think that buying expensive items to show your wealth and status and attract a mate is some new fad brought on by Marketing? That concepts of fake beauty haven't been around since pre-history?

Look at Egypt, notice the fake ornamentation? The gilded chariots? The ornate palaces? The lead make-up on the eyes that caused blindness? The unhealthy anemia (as paler skin meant more attractive),

You need to quit trying to blame everyone else for the human condition.

Maybe you can blame territorialism, sex drive and over-protective parents on modern media too.

Regardless of the myth, who you are on the outside also has a big impact on what type or person you are. It may not be the image you wish to present mind you, but what type of person you want others to see you as is invaluable in determining in what type of person you are.

 

[dancing-loon]

:love5:

Dancing_Loon

Greetings!

Greetings to you, too, Mikey;-)
Thank you for your vigorous posts throughout the thread. I read through the whole thing and felt there were a lot of good contributions. Special thanks for defending me against Eagle, who seems to have his eye and beak on me! :roll:

Canadians are happy to continue to ride the elephant, even if that means sniffling and itching whenever the Yanks get a cold or rash.They're happy because at a fundamental level no Canadian embraces their "nationality" in a way anywhere near with the enthusiasm that Americans embrace theirs.

I have great patriotism for Canada, Mikey. Faaaar more than I have for present-day Germany!

Canadians embrace the myth of cultural and economic, political and philosophical independence from whom....from the United States! Canadians will smile and some may even frown at mention of the British Monarchy and our continuing ties with that nation but when it comes to self-identification....Canadians identify with America.

There I can only say that Canadians, for some unknown reasons, might feel inferior to their American neighbor.
A few years ago I visited one of my daughters out west, and had the opportunity to talk with an elderly couple, non-immigrants!, about the Canada/US relationship. What I distinctly remember from that conversation is that they said the Americans are like our "big brother"!! That kind of feeling also seems to radiate from our present Prime Minister. Coincident or not, he is also from Alberta!
This non-patriotism, do you feel it is evenly spread amongst the provinces across Canada, Quebec exempted?
Another question: Do you think the immigrants, such as myself, feel more patriotic than the regular Canadians? I think that would make an interesting survey. (I could be the only unique one!;-))

This is a multi-faceted identification. Americans held a "revolution" to sever ties with England while Canadians in the typical apathetic "don't rock the boat" "dumb country cousin" fundamental identity of Canada embrace the American green-back.

What I have read on that revolution is that two groups emerged, the one severed itself from the British crown, the other did not, and that is us. We remained loyal to the mother-country, England. The Americans roughed it on their own and survived and flourished and expanded as well. In contrast, we never severed the umbilical cord, or never really cut the apron string. Therein I see perhaps our so called weakness, unsureness or whatever makes us lean on our big brother.

Canadians with slack-jawed admiration wallow in the shadow of a people who've stated and exercised the expression of their independence, something Canadians simply have no facility to engage.

I think we have made attempts. Hasn't Trudeau helped us along a great deal? Jean Chretien has demonstrated his independence, by resisting getting into the Iraq war, by traveling the Far East with his team of entrepreneurs to promote Canadian expertise and goods and services. I admired him for his unconventional gusto!

Canadians are the ultimate putative-child of "state-think"....willing to run the narrow and winding but ultimately "safe" non-identity between historical ties and pangs of child-like dependence (morality and values frameworks) of the mommy state..."Britain" and the garrulous defiance of America. This is a very spiritual thing to Canadians.

Mikey, I do admire your way of writing non-rhyming poetry in your posts!!! Such descriptive, emotional mini narratives in run-away sentences!!:lol:
How is this a spiritual thing to Canadians? I don't see that.

There is of course the "nut's and bolts" of skimming as much wealth and power off the seething corruption and amorality of our biggest trading partner.

No... that can't be true! Do you have an example? I rather think it is the other way around... big brother helps himself to our marbles!!

We hold ourselves available to supporting America when their infantile and wholly self-centered "foreign policies" generate antipathy and mistrust throughout the world....welcome their people when their center of commerce is destroyed by an "enemy" Americans are unable to accept as the creation of their own folly....

True! We still have a heart with feelings of compassion! Little brother will always stand up for big brother, because he hopes big brother won't beat him up and will, if necessary, come to his aid as well. There I have no regrets. What we did at the time of 9/11 was done with unquestionable spontaneity. What went wrong was that big brother took years to officially thank us, and even that was done in a roundabout, not really coming from the heart, way. I watched B. on TV.

t's a somewhat disjointed and often confused relationship, but ultimately something that powers the Canadian engine of commerce and "prosperity" so is hence something to be cooed and swooned over....

Gosh, you are sarcastic, Mikey! How come?

When America 'suggests' their putatuve child...Israel is entitled to carte-blanche... well of course in keeping with this fundamental sychophantic non-identity Canadians have cultivated for centuries...we moronically embrace it!

You know.... this blind support for Israel may, amongst other reasons not known to me, have something to do with the prewar time, when Hitler tried to find countries who would take in the expelled Jews, US and Canada refused to take them, and the ships had to turn around. A feeling of guilt could be part of the reason we now try to make up for our rejection.

When Canadians go to the gas pumps they're happy to whine and commiserate with their American friends..."It's like all them Eeyrackees and that evil Chavezz feller drivin up the prices..." when in fact it is American corporations that are raping the people of America and registering the largest profits in the history of commerce

Since I don't drive anymore , I only hear from people around me how those greedy American oil companies jack-up the prices. I have never heard anyone blaming Iraq or Hugo Chaves. I really don't think Canadians are that stupid, not to know the real culprits.

.... while Canada produces more than enough gasoline for domestic purposes....

Right!! There is a point to ponder. Why do we sell our oil to the states? Don't we have refineries ourselves, to convert the oil into gasoline? Shouldn't we look after ourselves first?? Maybe I don't understand the situation right and need to have someone explain it to me.

Canadians are essentially retarded with it comes to their self-identity and national-identity as well.

NO, Mikey, we are not retarded! Don't say that, because you would be included, wouldn't you?? I think Canadians are more softer and tolerant, and more inclined to adjust to the new reality of this present Multi-Culti wave than our big brother. I like to be softer and more understanding and flexible! Don't you? It shows more humanity, more acceptance.

We will continue to wag our tail and bounce around the big dog yapping at its tail...because that's easier than finding and standing-up-for ourselves with an identity that can be seen by the world as separate and different from the people of the United States.

Yes, that I wish, too. To have self-awareness and self-confidence to be neutral, to explore other connections with different countries than our big brother in the South. BUT that is easier said than accomplished. Big brother wouldn't like it, for one. WE have seen how they harassed us under Chretien with the softwood lumber, the mad cow blame and consequently beef ban. Accusing us of having terrorists coming through our country. They show no cooperation with little Omar, showed no cooperation in the Arrar case. All those nasty little things they do to remind us they are boss!!!

Our governments are changing our "image" on the world stage, we've demonstrated that we're still fledglings when it comes to corruption in our state authorities but we're trying.... We've modified the role of our military to harmonize with the American agenda of claiming right to decide and act for everyone else in the world whether they want or expect it....we reprise our role as second fiddle to the Yanks while pretending we're fumbling around looking for that one-time-myth-of-convenience...called peace-keepers...and there's little doubt that the fraud larceny and general corruption that Americans hail as "business as usual" in out-sourcing militarism while plundering the society they're ostensibly "protecting"...is rubbing-off on our puppet military.

Yes, here I can get upset, too!!! We have no spine, yet Harper pretends to be a big sack by "demanding" more NATO troops or else!!! He is so obviously still a little boy playing with his tin soldiers in Afghanistan's sand! You know, he would be far more respected by other nations and his own people, if he had said: "That's it!!! We are not wasting our time and resources on a conflict that has nothing to do with Canada. We have enough things to look after in our own country!" I would want to hug him, so happy and relieved would I be.

Don't hold your breath DC....Canadians are, when the going gets tough....simply pathetic.

:lol::lol::lol::lol: I know, dear Mikey, you are saying this to rile us up, to put some fire under our behinds, you so desperately want your fellow Canadians to find themselves, be strong and stand on their own two feet... not just mouth the words of strong and free...

dancing-loon

 

[jimmoyer]

Again, another point to be repeated posted by Zzarchov:

If you think this isn't instinctive natural behaviour present in most species you are wrong.

A hummer or a sports car helping you get the girl? Its no different than any number of ancient rituals of gold ornaments and gemstones

Hell even birds put effort into finding useless shiny items and attracting females with them.

You think that buying expensive items to show your wealth and status and attract a mate is some new fad brought on by Marketing? That concepts of fake beauty haven't been around since pre-history?

Look at Egypt, notice the fake ornamentation? The gilded chariots? The ornate palaces? The lead make-up on the eyes that caused blindness? The unhealthy anemia (as paler skin meant more attractive),

You need to quit trying to blame everyone else for the human condition.

Maybe you can blame territorialism, sex drive and over-protective parents on modern media too.

Regardless of the myth, who you are on the outside also has a big impact on what type or person you are. It may not be the image you wish to present mind you, but what type of person you want others to see you as is invaluable in determining in what type of person you are.
----------------------------------------------------post above by Zzarchov------------------------------

I believe the most viable predictive models of human behavior are those that best follow what really is instead of what we wish things to be.

The economy is like an abstract painting up close. No one understands each person's motivation, each errant movement of each molecule. Each action of each individual unit seems not to follow any logic.

Or like molecules in a wave. Each molecule going in a half dozen directions, but when you pull away far enough from the individual molecules you see a wave.

The arguments in macro economics pay attention to the big picture arising from all these seperate molecules.

Nanotechnology is finding this out.

 

[Praxius]

And what threats are coming from the US. I mean real threats...not the made up fantasy invasion threats.

Well for starters one could just simply look at most of the commerical takeovers, buy outs, our contry having to confirm to your country's rules and border restrictions, NAFTA, the whole talk about the NAU...... quite simply both the US and Canada are screwing one another over in different ways, I would even imagine you could see this from your own perspective (Job losses, etc.) the only thing is we're taking the worst of it (But that could be subjective I suppose)

Nor will it happen. Sorry.

You'd be suprised, anything can happen.

Yes there are. You better start building up your Maritime Fleet and be prepared for all of the costs that comes with it.

Sure, why not?

But you will find that you are going to get the biggest screwing of all because it will cost you more to trade with countries like China.

And if that is the case then we can trade with other countries, which we already do. Don't forget that we trade and deal with plenty of countries which the US won't touch, such as Cuba or some of the other countries in South America. We also trade with North Korea now.

What will happen if Canada suddenly becomes the big player in the international community while the US suffers through a recession, low employment, home foreclosers, two wars and a giant national debt, etc? We're predicted to come out better next year compared to last while the US runs smack dab into their own problems and are suspected to get even worse.

Quite honestly you're trying to tell me that we're going to be screwed by other countries, that the US has the proper resources to trade with the above nations compared to us, basically saying that we can't even come close to your own country's abilities in these matters, when in fact we can and we are..... and over time, we'll probably improve as well.

You act as though we haven't ever traded or dealt with any other countries in the world besides the US..... come on now, don't be silly.

What is silly is to really believe that Canada will cut or reduce trade with the US. Now that is silly. Canada is in no position whatsoever to get the upperhand on China. Not ever. They will suck you dry and hand you scraps. You will become dependent on those scraps. Try getting the upperhand on them and there will be no deal. You will bend and break.

Maybe what has occured to the US has something more to do with your country's lack of forign knowlege of other cultures and trades, that your own corporations have slacked off greatly when it comes to product quality management and thus, products became cheaper, but also more of a health risk. Who's fault is that? Both countries. One country for making them that way, and the other for not checking the product before it went on store shelves.

Granted, this too has occured in Canada, but just recently additional laws have been introduced to help counter this in the future and to find those companies who were slack are held responsible for the products they sell.

Then when you add up all the recalls, all the law suits, investments, and put that all together with the current problems in the US (Wars, Housing Market gone to crap, high fuel prices, a flakey dollar, and then some) ~ Although both our countries are similar, we're both in different surrounding situations with different problems and factors, and thus, what has occured to the US may not nessicarily occur with Canada.

Is it a sure thing? Nope.... but I like chances and the potiential for change.

 

[Lester]

Other markets should be explored as a safety net, the next time Uncle Sam b*tches about something(softwood for example) fine then thery don't have to buy it and we'll sell it to china or india they'll the US will come around once the competition stops and their prices go through the roof. as for a maritime fleet - sorry FOB Canada, we don't need a fleet you want it come get it.

 

[Praxius]

You have not left the big bad jock yet now have you. At this time you aren't in any position to either. It is amazing how you want to so willingly subjugate your country to Asia to presumedly spite the US.

China/Asia was an example out of many other countries which we can trade with and do.

And at this time we're not in any position to stop trading with the US? Why? Tell me one good reason why we can not just up and leave right now? Will the US invade us because they are losing out on money and resources or something?

If, hypothetically, a new government was put in place and Canadians decided to make a 180 total revamp of our country and how it operates and amongst all of that going on, the US is either cut off completely or reduced in what they can do or say in our country and we find alternative methods of making our country function properly....... what's stopping us?

Agreed. There is a lot of bling in Asia...but its not yours. If you want to contribute your petty bling to their's by all means go ahead. They will gladly take it and anything else you lay on their altar.

It was a figure of speech towards my country-relationship example I presented. I couldn't care less about bling.

But by all means.... keep telling me that you know with absolute certainty that China will do this and china will do that and if we do this, they'll do that..... all the while providing nothing to support your claims. It sounds more like fear mongering over the "Evil Communist China"

News flash.... we've been dealing and trading with China for quite sometime now, perhaps just as long as the US has been.

I suppose you are not aware of substantial % of our population that comes from Asia, mostly China in paticular?

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=bb0fee45-b305-490a-b161-a21bcb1d7329&k=34160

".....Chinese were the largest visible minority in B.C., accounting for 40.4 per cent of the visible minority population and 10 per cent of B.C.'s total population in 2006.

Almost three-quarters of them were born outside Canada. Of those, one in five arrived in Canada from 2001 to 2006 while 45.8 per cent came in the 1990s.

About 43.6 per cent of Richmond's population was of Chinese origin, the highest proportion of Chinese in a Canadian municipality. By comparison, 27.5 per cent of Surrey's population was of South Asian origin.

Visible minorities accounted for only about 16.2 per cent of Canada's total population, up from 13.4 per cent in 2001 and 11.2 per cent in 1996."

Sorry, but although China has their own goods and bads, they're not the big boogy man you like to make them out to be. Perhaps the reason why your country is getting so screwed over is due to your own country's actions.

Does this mean we'll just be buddy buddies with China with no problems? No... but when looking at the history and comparisons of both the US and China, which country has more cases against them when it comes to screwing us over?

Now why is that?

I read an article about how China was interested in a cross Canadian oil pipeline to the Pacific so they could buy your oil.

Nothing new, how many does the US have?

They were going to invest money but eventually backed out of investing money in Canada because it wasn't worth it for them.

Yes of course, that's why.... we're worthless I suppose.

The Canadian spokesman said they were more interested in taking our technology than anything else. So it looks as if your country will have to bend a little more for them to screw you as you desire them to.

Correction: we'll have to bend a little more for them to screw us over as You desire them to.

Case in point... we're not as stupid as you'd like us to be, sorry to say.

 

[darkbeaver]

Again, another point to be repeated posted by Zzarchov:

If you think this isn't instinctive natural behaviour present in most species you are wrong.

A hummer or a sports car helping you get the girl? Its no different than any number of ancient rituals of gold ornaments and gemstones

Hell even birds put effort into finding useless shiny items and attracting females with them.

You think that buying expensive items to show your wealth and status and attract a mate is some new fad brought on by Marketing? That concepts of fake beauty haven't been around since pre-history?

Look at Egypt, notice the fake ornamentation? The gilded chariots? The ornate palaces? The lead make-up on the eyes that caused blindness? The unhealthy anemia (as paler skin meant more attractive),

You need to quit trying to blame everyone else for the human condition.

Maybe you can blame territorialism, sex drive and over-protective parents on modern media too.

Regardless of the myth, who you are on the outside also has a big impact on what type or person you are. It may not be the image you wish to present mind you, but what type of person you want others to see you as is invaluable in determining in what type of person you are.
----------------------------------------------------post above by Zzarchov------------------------------

I believe the most viable predictive models of human behavior are those that best follow what really is instead of what we wish things to be.

The economy is like an abstract painting up close. No one understands each person's motivation, each errant movement of each molecule. Each action of each individual unit seems not to follow any logic.

Or like molecules in a wave. Each molecule going in a half dozen directions, but when you pull away far enough from the individual molecules you see a wave.

The arguments in macro economics pay attention to the big picture arising from all these seperate molecules.

Nanotechnology is finding this out.

"What really is instead of what we wish" you believe that do you Jim? That's nice, now if you can tell "what really is" a good politician. "The economy is like an abstract painting". You've started smoking cannibis again Jim, I can tell.:lol:

 

[Colpy]

Unfortunately, Praxius, you are sooooo dead wrong here.....

You think we should abandon our brothers, a democratic society built on the principles of English Common Law, our allies throughout the last 100 years, with a common heritage and a shared continent, and thousands of miles of shared borders......in favour of Asia, dominated by the Chinese, who are ruled by the Chinese Communist Party, an organization that has murdered by FAR more people than any other in history, that spies on us, that preforms (officially) 50% of the executions done on earth, and unofficially many times the number they claim.........that produces a never-ending plethora of shoddy, dangerous goods, that uses political prisoners as slave labour, that violently suppresses anything that smacks of freedom of religion, that is involved in the suppression of one colony while threatening the democratic island of Taiwan, that is no longer even socialist but fascist, that has turned a blind eye (at best) to piracy on the high seas, that yanks organs out of the condemned BEFORE they are executed, that murdered thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators at Tianamen Square, that is building coal-fired generating stations at an incredible rate, that refuses to engage in anything resembling fair trade by keeping their currency massively devalued, .....

Need I go on?

Come on people, pull your heads out of your asses and LOOK AROUND!

God knows the Yanks ain't perfect, but compared to China they are absolutely angelic.

 

[MHz]

Eagle, rather than use a hypothetical Canada/China relationship how about a situation that is factual. Should the US be able to determine who Canada trades with. You relationship with Cuba was tanked, should that relationship have any affect on Canada/Cuba trade? I don't think it should, yet there was pressure from your side to bind Canada to the same embargo that your country implemented.

As for shipping, if our ex-PM registers his ships in a different country to avoid paying Canadian taxes shouldn't we be as concerned about that kind of activity as we are about anything to do with (perceived) American influence?
"Paul Martin has plotted a profitable course through the lucrative waters of the shipping industry by refusing to fly the Canadian flag on his ships, a move that made it possible for him to avoid Canadian labour standards, Canadian environmental regulations, and Canadian taxes. During Martin’s entire tenure as finance minister, CSL did brisk business by avoiding Canadian taxes, robbing taxpayers of millions of dollars.
In order to carry out this heist, CSL operates shell companies in countries like Singapore and the Bahamas, tax havens with labour and environmental standards much weaker than Canada’s. By flying the flags of these countries in place of the Maple Leaf, Martin’s company was able to exploit the cheap labour of foreign crews, while bringing the profits back to Canada tax-free."
http://paulmartintime.ca/story/000025.html

 

[jimmoyer]

"What really is instead of what we wish" you believe that do you Jim? That's nice, now if you can tell "what really is" a good politician. "The economy is like an abstract painting". You've started smoking cannibis again Jim, I can tell.:lol:

----------------------------------------------Darkbeaver--------------------------------------------------


Was ist das Cannabis ?

 

[Praxius]

Unfortunately, Praxius, you are sooooo dead wrong here.....

Of course I am... I always am, didn't you know?

You think we should abandon our brothers,

Bzzzerrp.... not my brothers.

a democratic society built on the principles of English Common Law,

Bzzzerrrp.... The US is a Republic, not a Democracy.

our allies throughout the last 100 years,

And were our enemies before that.

with a common heritage and a shared continent,

Bzzzzerrrp..... We're not the only ones on the Continent.... and our "Herritages" are also not the same. Similar.... not the same.

and thousands of miles of shared borders......

Bzzzzerrpp.... It's not all that shared anymore thanks to all the border security crap.

in favour of Asia, dominated by the Chinese, who are ruled by the Chinese Communist Party,

So, we deal and trade with Cuba.... what's the dif?

an organization that has murdered by FAR more people than any other in history,

Source?

that spies on us,

So does the US.

that preforms (officially) 50% of the executions done on earth,

I'm impressed.

and unofficially many times the number they claim.........

Hince why it's unofficial, because it can not be proven.

that produces a never-ending plethora of shoddy, dangerous goods, that uses political prisoners as slave labour,

Half a point there.... it's not just China's fault for crappy products, it's also the fault of Canada and the US companies who didn't properly check their products for safety before throwing them on our shelves. That takes two to tango..... er three?

that violently suppresses anything that smacks of freedom of religion,

Well religion is highly over rated anyways.

that is involved in the suppression of one colony while threatening the democratic island of Taiwan, that is no longer even socialist but fascist, that has turned a blind eye (at best) to piracy on the high seas,

YAAARRRRRR!!!! Good ol international waters.... Ye'Harrrrr.... Pirates are cool.

that yanks organs out of the condemned BEFORE they are executed,

That'll teach them..... source?

that murdered thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators at Tianamen Square,

Well what would you expect here in Canada if a bunch of Communists or Facists ran down our streets trying to protest their way of government? None of them are perfect, all the systems are flawed, so if you don't like the government, either move or topple it.

that is building coal-fired generating stations at an incredible rate, that refuses to engage in anything resembling fair trade by keeping their currency massively devalued, .....

Need I go on?

I think you do.... considdering I could probably make an even longer list of things towards the US and their own actions.... and they'd be true..... and I'd have plenty of sources to back up and prove them. Sorry, haven't swayed me any.

Come on people, pull your heads out of your asses and LOOK AROUND!

God knows the Yanks ain't perfect, but compared to China they are absolutely angelic.

*shudders* If that's the case, let me slit my wrists now and get it over with.

 

[EagleSmack]

China/Asia was an example out of many other countries which we can trade with and do.

By all means...trade with whomever you wish

And at this time we're not in any position to stop trading with the US? Why? Tell me one good reason why we can not just up and leave right now?

You could...but you won't. It is a silly nationalist notion born from insecurity that many...but thankfully not most Canadians have. That talk isn't new and does not go further than the internet.

Will the US invade us because they are losing out on money and resources or something?[/quote}

Ooooo...Aaaaaaa... the invasion talk again. Another silly notion. You know you want us to invade. You do. Quit being such a masochist.

If, hypothetically, a new government was put in place and Canadians decided to make a 180 total revamp of our country and how it operates and amongst all of that going on, the US is either cut off completely or reduced in what they can do or say in our country and we find alternative methods of making our country function properly....... what's stopping us?

Nothing. But it won't happen and you know it.

It was a figure of speech towards my country-relationship example I presented. I couldn't care less about bling.

I believe you don't care about bling...you want China to have it.

But by all means.... keep telling me that you know with absolute certainty that China will do this and china will do that and if we do this, they'll do that..... all the while providing nothing to support your claims. It sounds more like fear mongering over the "Evil Communist China"[/quote}

Nope...I am so certain that China will have Canada's best interests in mind. :lol: Make that change!

News flash.... we've been dealing and trading with China for quite sometime now, perhaps just as long as the US has been.

I suppose you are not aware of substantial % of our population that comes from Asia, mostly China in paticular?

Oh well that is a big difference as the US doesn't have any Chinese at all! They will definitely take care of you now as they care for the well being of their own people.

Sorry, but although China has their own goods and bads, they're not the big boogy man you like to make them out to be. Perhaps the reason why your country is getting so screwed over is due to your own country's actions.

And they are not the savoir that you make them out to be. Face it...you are fantasizing of this great China/Canadian trade pact for one purpose...you want to put the screws to the US. Or you think a bigger trade relationship WILL actually screw with us. It won't be that big of a deal to us...and you will lose.

Does this mean we'll just be buddy buddies with China with no problems?

You can say that again!

No... but when looking at the history and comparisons of both the US and China, which country has more cases against them when it comes to screwing us over?

Your perception. But if the US is indeed screwing you over, China will be in an even better position to screw you over. Like I said...enjoy!

Yes of course, that's why.... we're worthless I suppose.

Canada isn't. I just wish you didn't think you had to cut down the US at every turn to make you feel like you are not worthless. Your thoughts aren't original Prax. All that you have made yourself believe has been around before you were born.

Correction: we'll have to bend a little more for them to screw us over as You desire them to.

Case in point... we're not as stupid as you'd like us to be, sorry to say.

The people that think logically aren't stupid. The others that think like you are not stupid either. You are just trying to find anyway to make yourselves feel good about Canada and bashing the US does that for you. It is unproductive and not realistic as most Americans could care less what Canadians think. How many of us Yanks are here on CanCon regulary...six? That gives you an idea.

Oh you will get screwed in the deal. I am sure of it. And while you are bent over you can say...

"We really showed them Yanks!"

 

[Praxius]

You could...but you won't. It is a silly nationalist notion born from insecurity that many...but thankfully not most Canadians have. That talk isn't new and does not go further than the internet.

Ah... so sorta like how you guys keep complaining about the corrupt government and wars, but do nothing about it?

But you did at least say that we could.... but we won't. We could and we most likely will... the question is when.

Ooooo...Aaaaaaa... the invasion talk again. Another silly notion. You know you want us to invade. You do. Quit being such a masochist.

Unless you guys plan on an invasion, then there is nothing we should be worried about, therefore we can do just as we please, which rolls back to my above comments and questions presented to you on why or how we wouldn't or won't just cut from the US when that time comes.

And it will come. No two countries stay buddies forever and eventually thorugh time differences and conflicts will eventually build up to a breaking point. Thinking otherwise is just short sighted and unwise.

Nothing.

Correct.

But it won't happen and you know it.

Bzzzerrrp... Wrong

Nope...I am so certain that China will have Canada's best interests in mind. :lol: Make that change!

Thinking that China or the US has Canada's best interests in mind is just silly, nor did I ever say one or the other would. Each country has their own best interests in mind.... but the level in which one country screws over the other is what matters. What are their motives? What do they want for this trade? How will this affect us in the long run?

Oh well that is a big difference as the US doesn't have any Chinese at all! They will definitely take care of you now as they care for the well being of their own people.

There is not one single person in the US from Chinese decent? :roll: Seriously now, stop that, you're being silly.

And they are not the savoir that you make them out to be.

Once again, please re-read my posts and comments and stop trying to throw crap in my mouth in which I didn't say.

Face it...you are fantasizing of this great China/Canadian trade pact for one purpose...you want to put the screws to the US. Or you think a bigger trade relationship WILL actually screw with us. It won't be that big of a deal to us...and you will lose.

No, Face it... you are still stuck on this concept in which I just adore China so much, more then any other country out there.... you still think this is about screwing over the US and getting some payback.

Face it.... The US is going down the crapper and fast. The biggest contribution to that is your current president and the decisions he has made/approved. Why the hell should Canada get sucked down with you? If the roles were reversed, you guys would probably shut down all your borders between you and us out of some CNN fear monger of Illegal Canadians running away from our recession like Mexicans in the south, and try to cut all ties you could before you lost out on more money and got screwed over.

All I'm saying is that it is more logical to be the "Capitalist" nation that we are. Business is sliding from the US. Considdering it wasn't even two years ago our dollar was about half the value of your own, and now is par or passing.... and that you guys are heading into a recession, where is the sense for us to remain dependant on your country and it's fluttering economy? You guys are buying and trading less with us simply because there's no longer a market down there, or you guys just can't afford it and thus, we are losing our own jobs and such..... so why not start seeking other alternatives.

Although you would wish this was a personal attack on the US, it's just business.

Your perception. But if the US is indeed screwing you over, China will be in an even better position to screw you over. Like I said...enjoy!

Indeed, perception.... your perception and my own. Your sides' information and my sides'. Myself hearing continual complaints in almost every department of trade with the US, and your side with "Business as Usual"

Case in Point:

Prentice defends decision to block MDA sale
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/72820-prentice-defends-decision-block-mda.html

There was of course a few other news articles in here I posted over the months, one in paticular that involved the US attempting to make a strip mine in New Brunswick and the provience shut the idea down...... then the company in the US was trying to figure out a way to sue because the local community didn't want it.

Canada isn't. I just wish you didn't think you had to cut down the US at every turn to make you feel like you are not worthless. Your thoughts aren't original Prax. All that you have made yourself believe has been around before you were born.

I don't have to do any cutting down of the US. And I am fully away my opinions may not be original..... honestly, what is original?

The people that think logically aren't stupid. The others that think like you are not stupid either. You are just trying to find anyway to make yourselves feel good about Canada and bashing the US does that for you.

You know, one thing that bugs me about the US, is that whenever someone is critical of the US, people in the US bitch and moan that we're bashing the US or anti-american. Sorry if it bugs you, but I'm only speaking honestly and countering some of your comments with equal responses. If you can't take it, don't start it.

It is unproductive and not realistic as most Americans could care less what Canadians think. How many of us Yanks are here on CanCon regulary...six? That gives you an idea.

That's sort of a bad example, as even I had a hard time finding this site. But Honestly, I'm not saying any of this just to piss you off or to see what people in the US think... like what you said about the US not caring about what Canadians think, we should be able to discuss what we want to do with our own country with or without your approval. If it's anti-american, then it is what it is.

I'm not going to suck hole anybody or any country just because it's the moral thing to do or because if I clash with common thinking I'm Anti-Something.

Trust me, If I was anti anything.... I'd be calling the destruction and nuclear wasteout of that paticular thing. I'm just kinda pissed off and fed up with how things are and voicing my opinion on the matter..... and at the same time perhaps I'll present some solutions.

I'm honestly not sure how many more times I have to explain this to you. Drop your sensitivity for once and realize not everybody is out to get you guys..... I want the opposite actually.

Oh you will get screwed in the deal. I am sure of it. And while you are bent over you can say...

"We really showed them Yanks!"

:roll: