U.S. soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada

EagleSmack

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And in that contract it isn't just one way. The US Military and government broke the law... international law at that... the contract is null and void imo. To continue and fight in an illegal war... a war of agression of all things, they under plain human rights should be able to refuse action and contributing to the suffering of a forign people who pose no relative threat to their friends, family or nation.

The contract is neither one way or two ways...it is a contract that he signed. The obligations are clear.

Null and void according to who? The soldier? Canadians? Sorry neither of you can determine what is null and void.

Illegal war? Like Kosovo illegal? The illegal war that Canada fought in? Was it UN approved? No. Did Yugoslavians pose a direct threat to Candian security? No. By your definition of illegal I would have to say your soldiers (and NATOs) fought an illegal war.

Keep them here in Canada? Sure why not? If more soldiers were to use the damn brains that they were born with such as this guy, rather then just being a dumb ass foot soldier "Following orders" blindly to whatever they are told to do, we'd probably have a lot less crap to deal with in this world today.

So all soldiers that don't do what this guy did are "dumb ass foot soldiers". That just shows the lack of respect you have for all soldiers and the ignorance for what they do.

"Following Orders" is what they do and is what they get paid for. It is what they signed up for and is in their oath and contract.
 

EagleSmack

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Whether he was discharged or not, the man has already earned combat chops. Why would it be so hard for a grateful nation to recognize that and thank him with a trade or service in another theatre?

Woof!

Because he is needed where they want to send him. The nation is grateful for what he did but now he has turned his back on his nation AND his fellow soldiers who have answered the call.
 

EagleSmack

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I thought you could refuse to 'step forward'. You might suffer some verbal abuse but you can't be forced to step forward. It isn't an order, as you aren't under their authority.
Better have the cash to repay those loans though or they could use that against you down the road. When you say "Am I free to go?" enough times they will eventually let you go.

It isn't that simple. You cannot refuse an order to step forward. A service member has waived his rights as a US Citizen for the duration of his contract. All 8 years. The 4 spent in IRR he could be called back.

I have known a few Marines who tried to get out of their contract while they were in. The best shot you have is in Basic Training. If you become a nuisance and just refuse to do anything they will give you an entry level separation and call you unfit for military service. It is neither an honorable or dishonorable discharge. However, once you make it through basic training and get your orders...well...they got you. NOW you can complain all you want and you will just find yourself in front of the CO being charged. You will lose money, rank, get extra duty. If you keep it up you will find yourself in the brig and then discharged with a BCD (Bad Conduct Discharge lovingly known as a Big Chicken Dinner) or worse a Dishonorable Discharge. Both of those discharges will haunt a service member his whole life. It will show on any background check.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Because he is needed where they want to send him. The nation is grateful for what he did but now he has turned his back on his nation AND his fellow soldiers who have answered the call.

No bloody wonder you have morale problems. I wonder how many no-win situations men can be forced to walk into at bayonet point before you end up with a mutiny?

Woof
 

EagleSmack

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Carrot on a string incentives don't work when the sucker figures out the game. A tour of duty used to be payment enough to begin trades training or OCS. If front line fodder is getting that hard to keep, wouldn't you think the tarnished old brass on the top of the dungpile would figure there's a problem?

It does seem like he's going about drawing attention in all the wrong ways.

Woof!

These soldiers are getting all kinds of bonuses to stay as well as incentives. I am a little unsure what you mean by OCS keeping him off the front line. There are plenty of officers in the line of fire. In a USMC Infantry company each platoon has an officer who went to OCS. They also have a company commander and an XO. The battalion command is loaded with officers and they are up with their men as well. There have been plenty of officers killed and injured in Iraq. The notion that officers are sitting in the Green Zone sending out orders to enlisted men in the field is not true.
 

EagleSmack

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No bloody wonder you have morale problems. I wonder how many no-win situations men can be forced to walk into at bayonet point before you end up with a mutiny?

Woof

Well some acrticles say we have morale problems because they want them to have morale problems. If you are looking to write a story a particular way and are determined to do so you will find that percentage of guys who do have bad morale. All you need to do is quote them, ignore the rest and you've got your article!

The count up in Canada (or is it just Toronto?) is 150. What percentage is that when compared to a military of hundreds of thousands. Pretty small if you ask me. 150 deserters doesn't mean there is a morale problem.
 

lone wolf

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These soldiers are getting all kinds of bonuses to stay as well as incentives. I am a little unsure what you mean by OCS keeping him off the front line. There are plenty of officers in the line of fire. In a USMC Infantry company each platoon has an officer who went to OCS. They also have a company commander and an XO. The battalion command is loaded with officers and they are up with their men as well. There have been plenty of officers killed and injured in Iraq. The notion that officers are sitting in the Green Zone sending out orders to enlisted men in the field is not true.

You didn't get that notion in my post. OCS is a commitment and some proof that a man can get ahead.

Woof!
 

lone wolf

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Well some acrticles say we have morale problems because they want them to have morale problems. If you are looking to write a story a particular way and are determined to do so you will find that percentage of guys who do have bad morale. All you need to do is quote them, ignore the rest and you've got your article!

The count up in Canada (or is it just Toronto?) is 150. What percentage is that when compared to a military of hundreds of thousands. Pretty small if you ask me. 150 deserters doesn't mean there is a morale problem.

:roll: Didn't this ostrich syndrome get some airplanes doing nasty things?

Woof!
 

EagleSmack

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You didn't get that notion in my post. OCS is a commitment and some proof that a man can get ahead.

Woof!

Got you.

But the commitment goes both ways. An enlisted man has to want to be an officer and show commitment. There are plenty of ways to become an officer and the opportunity is there for him. Running to Canada is not showing commitment. You can't just pin 2nd Lt. bars on a guys collar to get him to stay.
 

EagleSmack

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:roll: Didn't this ostrich syndrome get some airplanes doing nasty things?

Woof!

Well I can only go by what I see here in my home town. There are so many young men and a few women who have been over there and I have talked to quite a few. Not a one...and I mean not one has expressed discontent of having served or serving in Iraq. So I hear of morale problems from an article here and there and see different when I am talking to them in the flesh. They are becoming cops, fire fighters, going to college, etc. They are not the drug addicted, homeless, mindless masses as the media is trying so hard to make them. They also resent being prtrayed as such. I wish you could meet some of them because they are great kids. Unfortunately you Canadians have the worst we have to offer in these deserters. The sooner you get them back here the better.
 

MHz

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But a high score in a 1st person shooter like 'Army' can get you promoted? War is different if you are in 'payroll' or 'in the fire-zone'.
 

MHz

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Canada didn't bow out of Iraq because they can't fight in battles. They did it because it was a set-up to a war of aggression that includes plans of genocide on the Iraqi people. The sooner you face that fact, the quicker can determine who should/shouldn't be there.

You probably believe Pearl Harbor was a 'sneak attack'.

Don't listen to your own countrymen who say this is 'sooo fuked', that isn't just this one individual BTW.
 

EagleSmack

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Canada didn't bow out of Iraq because they can't fight in battles. They did it because it was a set-up to a war of aggression that includes plans of genocide on the Iraqi people. The sooner you face that fact, the quicker can determine who should/shouldn't be there.

You probably believe Pearl Harbor was a 'sneak attack'.

As to your post above this one I will have to ignore because it makes no sense.

Do you have real evidence that states we started the war in Iraq to...

1. Set up a war of agression
2. Commit genocide against the Iraqi people.

And you probably believe that you were actually fighting in WWII before the Americans or that Canadians burned down the White House. :lol:
 

MHz

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OK, provide some link to some article that says the US was going to address the issue of oil-rigs based on Kuwait soil slant drilling into Iraqi oil-fields.
Once you do that we can move onto the next topic, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

Don't you know high-scores are collected by the actual army?
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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And you probably believe that you were actually fighting in WWII before the Americans.... :lol:

I do! Canadians were active in Europe very shortly after war was declared. In fact, the first Canadian to die in battle was Sgt. Albert Price on September 4 1939 in a failed attack on the German ship, Admiral Scheer, in Wilhelmshaven.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/prince.html


Woof!
 
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Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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The contract is neither one way or two ways...it is a contract that he signed. The obligations are clear.

Indeed they are.

Null and void according to who? The soldier? Canadians? Sorry neither of you can determine what is null and void.

It's null and void according to common sense. The US like many other nations after WWII should be very aware of what is and is not considdered an illegal war or an act of aggression. The UN itself laid out definitions on this matter.

Illegal war? Like Kosovo illegal? The illegal war that Canada fought in? Was it UN approved? No. Did Yugoslavians pose a direct threat to Candian security? No. By your definition of illegal I would have to say your soldiers (and NATOs) fought an illegal war.

yeah yeah, I heard plenty already in regards to Kosovo. Shall we start nit picking and choosing which of our countries acted in the most illegals, or shall we stick to the topic at hand?

Regardless, just as we did in Afghanistan under NATO, so we did in Kosovo. Under NATO approval, we are members, we go. Nobody backed the Iraq invasion, there was no organization which approved the invasion of Iraq except Bush's imaginary coalition of the silly.... there's a difference believe it or not.

So all soldiers that don't do what this guy did are "dumb ass foot soldiers". That just shows the lack of respect you have for all soldiers and the ignorance for what they do.

Blah blah blah.... cry me a friggin river. You can do whatever you want to do, they can do whatever the hell they want to... I will do what I want to do. Such is life. Each person has their own principles that they will uphold or won't..... the fact that someone will face losing everything they have for those principles is where I keep my respect. If you want to stay in the military just to go and shoot/kill people in a far away land regardless of why you're there or if those people pose a danger to your country and those you care for, who am I to dispute? In fact why would I care? Therefore, why do you care if this guy refuses to do the same thing you enjoy doing?

He apparently joined by his choice. He signed the contract, apparently he was discharged and that was that after already serving one year over in Iraq. Then they tried to suck him back in regardless if he was officially discharged or not..... to me, it sounds like he has every right to take off and give the US Military the Finger from our side of the border.

"Following Orders" is what they do and is what they get paid for. It is what they signed up for and is in their oath and contract.

That fancy oath you speak of:

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Gives oath to defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies forign and domestic first and foremost..... obeying the orders of the President of the United States is secondary to that, even you should understand this. Clearly a large plithora of infringements on the constitution have occured from Bush since he's been in power, and my own interpretation of that would mean that since he has continually attacked many aspects of the Constitution since he's been in power, he is a domestic enemy and therefore any orders coming from him are null and void.
 

faithlessforeve

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Jan 28, 2008
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BINGO!

Exactly what I was going to say............

the Vietnam era was different......then there was a draft, although I would much more respect a "resistor" that simply refused, and did his prison time, instead of running away.

These guys need to be booted the hell out of my country ASAP.

He isn't running away...he already served there. He saw more than what most of us seen, so we should give this guy the benefit of the doubt. I hope he stays.
 

MHz

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Just don't let the dodgers get security details, like at Syncrude. Cleaning weapons for the 'mercian moose hunters would be cool though, soon as we figure out a way to pen them in, that is.