Cut Israel Off

[lone wolf]

What is the rationale for withdrawl of foreign support? What would be the benefit? Isn't it a choice of the foreigners wishing to support Israel?

What is the point in being an advanced and comfortable nation - a nation with full universal health care - who can't stand on her own? Is it a choice of the foreigners ... or the people who run them? Uncle Sam has a serious problem in that they attempt to solve every issue by throwing money at it. It's a case of too much money, too big a heart, too little intelligence. Drama queen Zionist Israel has been taking full advantage of it - to the tune of trillions - to fulfill her control freak ways. I made a politically incorrect comment once open a time about support for the narcissistic new kid on the block. The analogy hasn't changed.

A homeland for the Jews is beautiful concept. It's a terribly sad thing that Zionists chose to use them as shields for their own agenda

Woof!

 

[MikeyDB]

Well Art I think that you're too obsessed with the question. Israel could vanish off the face of the earth tomorrow and what difference would it make?

The only difference the presence of that nation has made to world peace and productivity is....well you know the answer to that....if you've been conscious for the past sixty years.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

What is the point in being an advanced and comfortable nation - a nation with full universal health care - who can't stand on her own? Is it a choice of the foreigners ... or the people who run them? Uncle Sam has a serious problem in that they attempt to solve every issue by throwing money at it. It's a case of too much money, too big a heart, too little intelligence. Drama queen Zionist Israel has been taking full advantage of it - to the tune of trillions - to fulfill her control freak ways. I made a politically incorrect comment once open a time about support for the narcissistic new kid on the block. The analogy hasn't changed.

A homeland for the Jews is beautiful concept. It's a terribly sad thing that Zionists chose to use them as shields for their own agenda

Woof!

I just want to know what you want for the nation now known as Israel. Are you advocating a home for the Jews somewhere else? Where? How Would it work? It seems needlessly complicated.

If the US thinks giving it's money to Israel is a good thing, what should we as Canadians have to say about it? NOthing I think. If US citizens want to change the policies, that's there problem, not mine. If Israel is getting nearly unconditional support and financial aid that is to their benefit. Why would they stop? France used to be a huge supporter of Israel, politics in France changed and France found it good policy to switch to supporting the Arabs (to try to get back into their good graces after all the colony problems). Such is politics.

Anyway, if you have a real plan, please post it. I eagerly await your solution.

 

[MikeyDB]

Well Lone Wolf may have a plan or not but I do.

Let's give the people of Israel the State of Texas.

See how that would sit with the American people and an administration that feels compelled somehow to finance that nation at the cost of its own people.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Well Art I think that you're too obsessed with the question. Israel could vanish off the face of the earth tomorrow and what difference would it make?

The only difference the presence of that nation has made to world peace and productivity is....well you know the answer to that....if you've been conscious for the past sixty years.

I haven't been concious for the past sixty years, iam concious of history though.

Good point though. What difference would it make if the earth imploded tomorrow? I do care though. This thread is all about this issue of Israel, so if you don't care, why all the posts? Doesn't solve sh*t.

I like politics, history (especially of the middle east and the arabs), science, and art. That is why I am here. I care about radical ideas and their outcomes. I believe people have good intentions and those ideas however good intentioned result in horrors that could have been but were not predicted.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Well Lone Wolf may have a plan or not but I do.

Let's give the people of Israel the State of Texas.

See how that would sit with the American people and an administration that feels compelled somehow to finance that nation at the cost of its own people.

Good plan. Now all you have to do is get a State of Texas so that it is your to give away and then convince the Texans to leave and convince the Israelis to move. Seems simple enough. Just remember there is a bomb in the basement, the Israelis might not want to leave.

 

[MikeyDB]

It's like a lot of living one's life Art, I don't care about very much anymore because the world's full of morons who think they have the answer... There have been people discussing the Israeli thing for decades and what's happened?

Nothing.

It's like the whole reason for discussion boards Art, it's entertainment and to imagine it's anything more is self-delusion.

You hang in there though seems to me you're working on your delusions just like eveyone else has worked on their's....

 

[Zzarchov]

Sorry, been awhile I didn't realise you'd responded Earth_as_One.

You know that this:

"The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities."

Mixed with the fact that is the responsibility of a fighting man to avoid being near civilians not the attacker to avoid hitting civilians when firing at a legitimate target,

mean that all those deaths you were talking about were the fault of Palestinians.


Add to that, Israel is not an occupying power to the Gaza strip. If Gaza does not recognize Israel, then it must consider the region before Israel the natural state.

Thus it engaged in a Civil war. In which case it isn't occupation since its all one nation and it isn't annexing, as they have always been one nation.

Somehow I don't think Hamas means it that way, they mean it in the "We can murder you all because you aren't real human beings to us" way.

 

[Just the Facts]

Technically Israel is really "Israel and the Occupied Territories". One state, not two.

Actually, three states. Israel, Jordan and Gaza (Edit: whoops, I mean Egypt) . Jordan didn't want the West Bank back after 1967 and Egypt I believe (I admit I don't really know, but am assuming) likewise abandoned Gaza.

So actually it's Israel and the abandoned territories.

 

[Just the Facts]

Let's give the people of Israel the State of Texas.

It's not like they spun a globe and stuck a pin in it. There's a reason Israel is where it is.

 

[lone wolf]

It's not like they spun a globe and stuck a pin in it. There's a reason Israel is where it is.

There are MANY reasons why Israel is where it is. The tragic thing is, the real one is lost to history. The rest are pure speculation.

Woof!

 

[Just the Facts]

There are MANY reasons why Israel is where it is. The tragic thing is, the real one is lost to history.
Woof!

Not quite yet, but you're right, they ARE working on it.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=arab+destruction+of+jewish+artifacts&meta=

 

[iARTthere4iam]

There are MANY reasons why Israel is where it is. The tragic thing is, the real one is lost to history. The rest are pure speculation.

Woof!

Not lost to history, just difficult and boring to read through. I suggest you read the Israeli-Arab Reader. Riveting read. If you really care this book anwers most of the questions you may have.

 

[earth_as_one]

Sorry, been awhile I didn't realise you'd responded Earth_as_One.

You know that this:

"The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities."

Mixed with the fact that is the responsibility of a fighting man to avoid being near civilians not the attacker to avoid hitting civilians when firing at a legitimate target,

mean that all those deaths you were talking about were the fault of Palestinians.


Add to that, Israel is not an occupying power to the Gaza strip. If Gaza does not recognize Israel, then it must consider the region before Israel the natural state.

Thus it engaged in a Civil war. In which case it isn't occupation since its all one nation and it isn't annexing, as they have always been one nation.

Somehow I don't think Hamas means it that way, they mean it in the "We can murder you all because you aren't real human beings to us" way.

In some cases, Israel's attacks fall within the rules of war. But in many cases, they are war crimes.

Shelling public beaches full of people when their isn't a militant in sight for example. Or sending attack helicopters to blow up an old man in a wheelchair as he comes out of a Mosque surrounded by hundreds of innocent bystanders. Or bombing an apartment block full of innocent people because their might be a single person of interest inside.

Look I know its a war. I have no sympathy for the people who use violence on either side of the conflict. But I do have a problem with 60 years of injustice and oppression, collective punishment of millions of people, ethnic cleansing....

Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears.

The Zionist State of Israel has been an evil manevolent force which has brought misery to millions of people. Yet our news spins this state as some sort of innocent victim. I have a problem with that too.

I post on sites like this to share information everyone should know about this conflict but don't. People can make up their own minds based on both points of view on both sides.

Z, Thank you for being a civil debater and presenting the other side.

 

[earth_as_one]

Not lost to history, just difficult and boring to read through. I suggest you read the Israeli-Arab Reader. Riveting read. If you really care this book anwers most of the questions you may have.

I recommend this book by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11102

People who only know what the idiot box tells them about this conflict, will find it shocking.

 

[jimmoyer]

No lesson will be learned if Israel disappears.

The victor vanquishing Israel will accomplish nothing in the long run.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

I could not find the article you posted. But I did go to Pappe's official website to find out what his plan is. It is essentially a one state plan where basically Israel and the Palestinian area become a single state with all within sharing equal rights. I haven't yet found out if this one state would include the refugees from surrounding areas like Jordan and Lebanon. It is apparently based on the South African anti-apartheid model. My immediate reaction to such a proposal is usually if there are nations for other religions and races why not one for the Jews? I would not choose to live in a country that was based on religion or one racial identity, but I am Canadian and such a situation is truly bizarre to me.

The world supported a Jewish homeland and now that such a homeland exists would like to forget the history that has led to it's establishment. The Palestinians instead of building a nation have been fighting everyone in the hopes that somehow a nation would emerge. The palestinian fight for nationhood has been truly dismal. Here are some quotes from Pappe's own official website. www.ilanpappe.org

An abortive Palestinian revolt against British rule and Zionism in 1936-39 left the local community leaderless - as many of its politicians were exiled - and the neighbouring Arab regimes began exerting their influence. In February 1947, Britain decided it had had enough of this troubled land, and chose to leave it as part of the overall decolonisation of the British empire. But the Jewish settlers and indigenous Palestinians reached the last days of British rule in very different conditions: the Jews had built an infrastructure for a future state; the Palestinians were just hoping that the Arab world would save them.

The Palestinian rejection, and the Arab world's threat to challenge the partition by force, did not deter the UN, which went ahead with its plan to cut the land roughly in half. It adopted this as a General Assembly resolution in November 1947.

the Arab refusal to go along with partition entitled the Jewish people to pursue two plans: to take more of Palestine than had been accorded to the Jews by the United Nations

After 1967, the PLO had tried to base itself in Jordan, but this raised the fear of a possible Palestinian takeover of Hashemite Jordan; hijackings of aircraft in the early 1970s gave Jordan a reason to chase out the PLO. It relocated itself in southern Lebanon, from where it waged a guerrilla war against Israel. However, in 1982, Sharon invaded Lebanon and succeeded in forcing the movement out of Lebanon and into Tunis.

The frustration and deprivation in occupied Palestine bred a fundamentalist Islamist movement that began its war of terror against Israel in the 1990s, using human suicide bombings as its main strategy. Each such bomb, killing many innocent people, allowed Israel to retaliate with collective punishments, including house demolitions, expulsions and assassination

If the Palestinians had worked as hard building a nation for themselves as they have at fighting against Israel the situation there would be very different indeed.

I still have more of Pappe's writings to read through. But I think I will stick by my preferred plan. Israel should unilaterally withdrawl from Gaza (already cleared of settlers) and the West Bank. They should allow the Palestinians freedom of access to the Sea and by air. Naturally entering Israel would be entering a foreign nation and would be subject to Israel's laws.

 

[jimmoyer]

The world supported a Jewish homeland and now that such a homeland exists would like to forget the history that has led to it's establishment. The Palestinians instead of building a nation have been fighting everyone in the hopes that somehow a nation would emerge. The palestinian fight for nationhood has been truly dismal.


If the Palestinians had worked as hard building a nation for themselves as they have at fighting against Israel the situation there would be very different indeed.
---------------------------------------above posted by iARTthere4iam-----------------------------------

Absolutely true.

Division of labor requires some people to focus solely on Israeli attrocities and ignore the above.

Others choose the job of seeing what iARTthere4iam observes.

Division of labor for us voyeurs of this pain in the Middle bEast.

There's one other demographic that really has the greatest influence of all.
Something like more than 50 percent of the palestinians are under 30 years old.

 

[Zzarchov]

In some cases, Israel's attacks fall within the rules of war. But in many cases, they are war crimes.

Shelling public beaches full of people when their isn't a militant in sight for example. Or sending attack helicopters to blow up an old man in a wheelchair as he comes out of a Mosque surrounded by hundreds of innocent bystanders. Or bombing an apartment block full of innocent people because their might be a single person of interest inside.

Look I know its a war. I have no sympathy for the people who use violence on either side of the conflict. But I do have a problem with 60 years of injustice and oppression, collective punishment of millions of people, ethnic cleansing....

Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears.

The Zionist State of Israel has been an evil manevolent force which has brought misery to millions of people. Yet our news spins this state as some sort of innocent victim. I have a problem with that too.

I post on sites like this to share information everyone should know about this conflict but don't. People can make up their own minds based on both points of view on both sides.

Z, Thank you for being a civil debater and presenting the other side.

Don't get me wrong, im not trying to imply Israel is some shinning beacon of humanity, I guess my views would be closer to , "it blends in with the darkness that is humanity". There are far easier to fix hotspots in the world, which are far worse and could be fixed with a fraction of the resources dedicated to fixing Israel and Palestines problems for them.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Don't get me wrong, im not trying to imply Israel is some shinning beacon of humanity, I guess my views would be closer to , "it blends in with the darkness that is humanity". There are far easier to fix hotspots in the world, which are far worse and could be fixed with a fraction of the resources dedicated to fixing Israel and Palestines problems for them.

Which hotspots should we try to fix that wouldn't immediately be denounced by our own lefties as imperialism. Mabey we should just stay home and let others find their own solutions. Whether they find a solution ever or suffer through their own turmoil to find home grown solutions is up to them. Just a thought.