Come on E, I know you have an agenda but you're also a reasonably reasonable fellow. It's not even close to being the same thing. Why make such comparisons? It doesn't help your cause being outlandish.
Ok Iran fans, defend this...I know you will...
- Thread starter thomaska
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Come on E, I know you have an agenda but you're also a reasonably reasonable fellow. It's not even close to being the same thing. Why make such comparisons? It doesn't help your cause being outlandish.
Sure I have an agenda. It is to expose current examples of injustice and oppression.
I don't believe in race or religious based superiority or entitlement.
Nazis believe their race makes them superior. Zionists believe their religion makes them entitled. Both philosphies lead to one group of people using force to trample on the rights of another group of people.
In the case of the Nazis, their belief in racial superiority led to ethnic cleansing by force and extermination. Today, Zionist beliefs in religious based entitlement has only progressed to the point of ethnic cleansing by force. Its still not known where Zionism will eventually end. Clearly they don't have ethical dilemmas about killing unarmed civilians.
AS above... Gaza is a bigger version of the Warsaw ghetto.
Also both are examples of man's inhumanity to man.
I agree that the U.S. in all likelihood should not have invaded Iraq, but when the U.N. imposes sanctions and peoples and countries deliberately skirt those sanctions for no nobler a purpose than to get rich. Those guilty of that are France, Germany, Russia, and China, the very same countries who refuse to get tough with Iran on the nuclear issue. If we are going to keep the uselessly corrupt, U.N. that any country who either ignores sanctions or skirts them should be expelled from the U.N.
When diplomacy fails and the line has been drawn in the sand, where do you go from there? Iran has continues to defy the U.N., and the reason for that is sanction are only tools with which to make a country comply with the U.N.'s wishes, but when you have countries like those I mentioned above, carrying on commerce, as if there were no sanction imposed at all. Why would they stop exploring the nuclear option? The scary part for not only the Middle East, and Israel, but the whole world, when Iran is finally able to develop what everyone believes they are developing, a nuclear weapon. They already have the means to deliver it, and now all they need is the war-heads. Let's not forget that Iran is Theocracy, and the stated goal of radical Islamists is to convert the whole world to Islam. It will be a sad day for all you libertarians when that happens, because under their brand of radical Islam, you will simply be put to death.
When diplomacy fails and the line has been drawn in the sand, where do you go from there? Iran has continues to defy the U.N., and the reason for that is sanction are only tools with which to make a country comply with the U.N.'s wishes, but when you have countries like those I mentioned above, carrying on commerce, as if there were no sanction imposed at all. Why would they stop exploring the nuclear option? The scary part for not only the Middle East, and Israel, but the whole world, when Iran is finally able to develop what everyone believes they are developing, a nuclear weapon. They already have the means to deliver it, and now all they need is the war-heads. Let's not forget that Iran is Theocracy, and the stated goal of radical Islamists is to convert the whole world to Islam. It will be a sad day for all you libertarians when that happens, because under their brand of radical Islam, you will simply be put to death.
Thought earth as one:
If you don't believe in Racial or Religious entitlement, why can't you condemn the Palestinians for wanting to seperate purley based on wanting to not have any Jewish influence in their country?
Israel lets Arabs (muslims and christians) be elected to the legislature and have full rights. You could even have a non-Jewish prime minister of Israel.
But the Palestinians refuse to live in a country in which a Jew could be the prime minister. They would rather have a dictator as long as he isn't a Jew.
It seems to me like you should be opposing the Palestinians for refusing to give up caring about religion when they could instead be embracing democracy and making any changes peacefully through legislation.
If the Civil rights movement in the USA had fought for a black homeland in the USA they would still just be throwing bombs and America would have been stuck in the past. But they chose to work towards peaceful goals (and faced murders, brutality and assasinations to get it) and there is a good chance the next US president could be black.
In the same time the Palestinians have fought to ensure they never have to deal with the possibility their boss might be Jewish. They chose to fight to have a country where they would never have to deal with a jewish politician being elected, and end up living in a squalid hellhole.
They have been fighting for longer than the Civil Rights movement and gotten worse not better. Seems to me like its really their own fault.
If you don't believe in Racial or Religious entitlement, why can't you condemn the Palestinians for wanting to seperate purley based on wanting to not have any Jewish influence in their country?
Israel lets Arabs (muslims and christians) be elected to the legislature and have full rights. You could even have a non-Jewish prime minister of Israel.
But the Palestinians refuse to live in a country in which a Jew could be the prime minister. They would rather have a dictator as long as he isn't a Jew.
It seems to me like you should be opposing the Palestinians for refusing to give up caring about religion when they could instead be embracing democracy and making any changes peacefully through legislation.
If the Civil rights movement in the USA had fought for a black homeland in the USA they would still just be throwing bombs and America would have been stuck in the past. But they chose to work towards peaceful goals (and faced murders, brutality and assasinations to get it) and there is a good chance the next US president could be black.
In the same time the Palestinians have fought to ensure they never have to deal with the possibility their boss might be Jewish. They chose to fight to have a country where they would never have to deal with a jewish politician being elected, and end up living in a squalid hellhole.
They have been fighting for longer than the Civil Rights movement and gotten worse not better. Seems to me like its really their own fault.
Z,
This isn't black or white. I don't agree with those who believe in violence or have intolerant viewpoints on either side. Atrocities have been committed by both sides. Both sides have their share of extremists. I don't support extremism in either direction.
Innocent people have suffered on both sides. The news more than adequately covers immigrant suffering. But the injustice and oppression suffered by the locals doesn't get equal consideration in the west, because our news selectively omits facts, distorts history, spins the news and shows holocaust documentaries. Thats BS propaganda and why so many people are ignorant and misinformed...
Misinformation and propaganda which perpetuates the injustice and oppression will never lead to peace. Only justice and freedom can lead to peace. Palestinians have neither, and so they resist violently and non-violently.
I'm not taking the side of belligerents on either side. Lets put it this way,... If the locals had gained the upperhand rather than the immigrants, and the propaganda was whitewashing the atrocities of the locals and ignoring the suffering of the immigrants, I'd probably be condemning the locals and pointing out atrocities committed by locals.
I don't see this as a religious or race issue. Its human nature to define differences between ourselves. Once we differentiate between "We" and "They" or "US" and "Them", one side inevitable gains the upper hand over the other and one side gets screwed by the other. For the last 60 years, the locals have been getting screwed over by the immigrants in this region and until recently that information has been obscured. As a result most Canadians are ignorant of this conflict's reality.
Since the immigrants had been on the recieving end for such a long time, I hold them to higher standards than most people. I would have expected that when the immigrants got a chance to screw others as they had been screwed, they would resist the temptation. What's going on only proves that in general... greed, lust for power and domination, selfishness... motivate people more than compassion and forgiveness.
This isn't black or white. I don't agree with those who believe in violence or have intolerant viewpoints on either side. Atrocities have been committed by both sides. Both sides have their share of extremists. I don't support extremism in either direction.
Innocent people have suffered on both sides. The news more than adequately covers immigrant suffering. But the injustice and oppression suffered by the locals doesn't get equal consideration in the west, because our news selectively omits facts, distorts history, spins the news and shows holocaust documentaries. Thats BS propaganda and why so many people are ignorant and misinformed...
Misinformation and propaganda which perpetuates the injustice and oppression will never lead to peace. Only justice and freedom can lead to peace. Palestinians have neither, and so they resist violently and non-violently.
I'm not taking the side of belligerents on either side. Lets put it this way,... If the locals had gained the upperhand rather than the immigrants, and the propaganda was whitewashing the atrocities of the locals and ignoring the suffering of the immigrants, I'd probably be condemning the locals and pointing out atrocities committed by locals.
I don't see this as a religious or race issue. Its human nature to define differences between ourselves. Once we differentiate between "We" and "They" or "US" and "Them", one side inevitable gains the upper hand over the other and one side gets screwed by the other. For the last 60 years, the locals have been getting screwed over by the immigrants in this region and until recently that information has been obscured. As a result most Canadians are ignorant of this conflict's reality.
Since the immigrants had been on the recieving end for such a long time, I hold them to higher standards than most people. I would have expected that when the immigrants got a chance to screw others as they had been screwed, they would resist the temptation. What's going on only proves that in general... greed, lust for power and domination, selfishness... motivate people more than compassion and forgiveness.
``Zionist beliefs in religious based entitlement has only progressed to the point of ethnic cleansing by force.``
Precisely why Einstein equated Zionism with Nazism. {op cit}
Precisely why Einstein equated Zionism with Nazism. {op cit}
Gaza had (has) the opportunity and potential to be a nation.
That is so far removed from the reality of the ghetto that drawing comparisons between the two borders on insane.
I did an internet search to see if anyone else drew the same comparison.
I found two stories. The first is hilarious, the second serious.
On a more serious note, two British MP's made a similar remark after visiting Gaza:
That visit was 2003. Gaza has gotten considerably worse since then.
JTF, Unless you have spent some time in Gaza like the British MPs above, then I would say their opinion is more qualified than yours.
If you're going to apply that standard to me then you must apply it to them as well. Unless those British MP's above have spent time in the Warsaw Ghetto, then their opinion is no more qualified than mine.
All Gazans have to do is stop firing rockets into Israel EVERY DAY. Then they will have peace. They will have prosperity. They will have a nation.
You can't come anywhere near saying the same for the Jews of the Ghetto.
I maintain that drawing any comparisons between the two is borderline insane.
Now THAT is a really crippling argument. All you need are the pics and the testimony. Mountains are available. I never saw Auchwitz, Buchenwald or Dachau. I doubt if those British MP's did either. Does that mean they weren't there? Festering hellholes are festering hellholes, no matter if the guards are Nazi, Israeli or Arab.
Woof!
Earth_as_One:
Your still excusing the Palestinians desire to be a seperate nation purely because they don't want to share a country with a different religion, who is willing to share it with them (and has proven it).
If you truly think that seperation based on religion is wrong, then its the Palestinians not the Israelis who are in the wrong. Their are Muslim Israelis, there are no Jewish Palestinians (even if born there).
The Palestinian issue is all about forcing a seperation of religions and race.
Your still excusing the Palestinians desire to be a seperate nation purely because they don't want to share a country with a different religion, who is willing to share it with them (and has proven it).
If you truly think that seperation based on religion is wrong, then its the Palestinians not the Israelis who are in the wrong. Their are Muslim Israelis, there are no Jewish Palestinians (even if born there).
The Palestinian issue is all about forcing a seperation of religions and race.
America is a real democracy? Tell that to homeland securiy. And while we are at it we should be looking in our own back yard, there is no such thing as a real democracy. As for Iran, no I would prefer not to engage in their brand of democracy anymore than I would like to be part of America.
America has a twisted version of the rule of law. The other thing I don't like, is their religious influence on their democracy, like here, the rantings of evangelical fundamentalists is as silly and bizarre and anything to come out of the middle east.
Ann Colter, is nothing short of a media misfit with little or no credibility so it matters not what she says. Sort of like Fox News in general the propaganda arm of the white house, they remind me of the silly stuff that once graced the pages of Provda in the old soviet union.
The problems in the Middle East go way beyond the problem with Iran, and if anything, we can look forward to a regional civil war between Sunis and Shia Moslems that will envelope the entire middle east region. It will really be a war between Arab Suni vs Persian Shia.
If America goes after Iran however we could end up fighting the entire Muslim world as we will become the foreign invader even with our allies. Face it we are societal people and the Muslims are tribal, we are looking at the world differently, with several centuries between our insights.
I suggest with the middle east, Iran is among the least of our problems.
America has a twisted version of the rule of law. The other thing I don't like, is their religious influence on their democracy, like here, the rantings of evangelical fundamentalists is as silly and bizarre and anything to come out of the middle east.
Ann Colter, is nothing short of a media misfit with little or no credibility so it matters not what she says. Sort of like Fox News in general the propaganda arm of the white house, they remind me of the silly stuff that once graced the pages of Provda in the old soviet union.
The problems in the Middle East go way beyond the problem with Iran, and if anything, we can look forward to a regional civil war between Sunis and Shia Moslems that will envelope the entire middle east region. It will really be a war between Arab Suni vs Persian Shia.
If America goes after Iran however we could end up fighting the entire Muslim world as we will become the foreign invader even with our allies. Face it we are societal people and the Muslims are tribal, we are looking at the world differently, with several centuries between our insights.
I suggest with the middle east, Iran is among the least of our problems.
For those delusionals who swallow the Bush fed lies about Iran, watch Reese Erlich on Book-TV C-SPAN II:
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=8757&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No
Erlich is Jewish and clears the air as to the lies that you are bombarded with every night. He proves conclusively that Iran does not represent the type of threat you have been led to believe.
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=8757&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No
Erlich is Jewish and clears the air as to the lies that you are bombarded with every night. He proves conclusively that Iran does not represent the type of threat you have been led to believe.
Don't assign opinions to me. Please stick to quoting and debating what I write.
You say there are no Jewish Palestinians. That's wrong. There are Jewish Palestinians just like there are Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
Before Zionism, the old Yishuv were a sizable minority in Palestine and they peacefully coexisted with other Palestinians. The Yishuv opposed Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state, because they knew it would destroy their way of life:
Few of these people live in the occupied territories because, thanks to Zionism, that would be dangerous. Before Zionism, Jewish Palestinians lived peacefully with their neighbors.
Opposing Zionism or the Zionist state of Israel isn't anti-Semitic. If that was true then the second largest population of Jews in the middle east wouldn't be in Iran:
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html
I can't find the link, but I've read statements by Muslim extremists who say their goal isn't cleanse Palestine of Jews. Their goal is to end to Zionism and force all Jews except the Yishuv (Jewish Palestinians) to leave. In other words, put things back to the way they were before Zionism. I disagree with that viewpoint, because I don't believe commiting yet another atrocity will lead to peace. Can anyone find a link to support the above?
Zionism (political movement) is not Judaism (religion). Opposing Zionism does not mean opposing Judaism. Many Jews oppose Zionism.
You should read this 1947 letter by King Abdullah of Jordan. It explains how Arab/Muslims and Jewish Palestinians percieved immigration related to Zionism:
As you can see his problem isn't with Jews. Its with Zionism leading to Palestine being overrun by foreigners.
Re: Muslim Israelis? You refer to Israel's second class citizens who suffer official and unofficial discrimination as well as overt and covert racism. Their situation is comparable to South African Blacks under the apartheid system. I reference a list of problems they face as compiled by Jews For Justice For Palestinians:
http://www.jfjfp.org/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm
1.) They aren't foreigners if they were born there.
2.) By Arabs own historians, they are foreigners in Palestine if you discount place of birth.
3.) In the article you link to it very clearly describes how in Arab circles Palestinian Jews are not considered Palestinians.
4.) You did bring up the point, so It is sticking to the debate. Don't bring up losing points if you don't want to defend them.
5.) Saying Iran has the second highest number of Jews in the middle east isn't saying much. Its like saying Greenland has the second highest number of tropical fish in the arctic circle.
How about comparing some numbers of Jewish populations Pre-1948 in the middle east and currently. See if you notice a trend.
2.) By Arabs own historians, they are foreigners in Palestine if you discount place of birth.
3.) In the article you link to it very clearly describes how in Arab circles Palestinian Jews are not considered Palestinians.
4.) You did bring up the point, so It is sticking to the debate. Don't bring up losing points if you don't want to defend them.
5.) Saying Iran has the second highest number of Jews in the middle east isn't saying much. Its like saying Greenland has the second highest number of tropical fish in the arctic circle.
How about comparing some numbers of Jewish populations Pre-1948 in the middle east and currently. See if you notice a trend.