Genocide???

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Juan... I love how you start out this thread by saying 1.2 million are dead and here we are on page four and you just added 300,000 to your already bloated number. That poll has already been shot full of holes.

Knock, knock
Yes?
Did you have anyone killed?
Yes... a whole bunch!
How many?
At least 10!
10... got you and thank you.

How very scientific. But that is how the poll was done.

The fact of the matter is that things are getting better over there and EVERYONE knows it. I think the biggest losers will be the people like you who prayed each night for democracy to fail in Iraq because your hate for the Bush Admin.

Which Iraqis? The only ones you will listen too? The only ones you will hear? Ah yes... the rest are US puppets.

If you look around a bit you can find numbers a lot bigger that the numbers I've used and I don't care if you believe them or not..

You say things are getting better....Did the civil war end? As near as I can tell; Iraqis are still killing each other at the rate of about a hundred a day.

When are you going to admit that the Iraq invasion was, and is an oil war?
 

EagleSmack

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If you look around a bit you can find numbers a lot bigger that the numbers I've used and I don't care if you believe them or not..

You say things are getting better....Did the civil war end? As near as I can tell; Iraqis are still killing each other at the rate of about a hundred a day.

When are you going to admit that the Iraq invasion was, and is an oil war?

Which numbers? You can't even agree with yourself.

I am sure there are all sorts of numbers out there. Most with no basis of fact except to support ones argument.

More inflated numbers. How many died today? Any breaking news? What about yesterday?

There is internal strife, sectarian killings but the massive Civil War just has not happened. Much to your chagrin I am sure.

It was never an oil war. That is just a catch phrase. Mindless dribble from the left.
 

EagleSmack

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Eaglesmack ... Ok, aside from quibbling about numbers, how do you define the situation in Iraq? Let's just agree that a lot of people have been killed.

Why were they killed? I'm still trying to find out what the hell the U.S. was doing there in the first place. Perhaps if I had an answer that made sense, I would see it's not genocide. School me, man. I've done a ton of reading on this and cannot figure it out.

You know what Cosmo, I believe that the Bush Administration was just fed up with Saddam and that is why. But it is not genocide because we are not systematically eradicating Iraqi's. That is what genocide is. Rwanda was genocide. Hutus killing Tutsis because they are Tutsis and no other reason.
 

EagleSmack

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Another link to support your story Eaglesmack

http://tinyurl.com/36j2q6

Ahhhh... Common Dreams... Breaking News and Views from the Progressive Community

So says their page entry. Progressive... meaning left, meaning liberal, meaning anti-Bush, meaning anti-war, meaning a bias to see everything wrong AND the numbers still didn't add up to 100 per day.

I guess I can go to a Conservative webpage and post a link.
 

Cosmo

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Jul 10, 2004
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You know what Cosmo, I believe that the Bush Administration was just fed up with Saddam and that is why. But it is not genocide because we are not systematically eradicating Iraqi's. That is what genocide is. Rwanda was genocide. Hutus killing Tutsis because they are Tutsis and no other reason.

Well, at least you're honest, Eaglesmack. It seems like no one can give me an answer to that question.

As for genocide, if you check the definition I posted earlier, taken from the Genocide Watch website, it sounds to me like the shoe fits ... "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

They're not after all Iraqis, but they are after one religious faction of them. No?
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Is there such a thing as suigenocide? It seems to me more Iraqi's are being killed by other Iraqi's than by Americans. Americans are being killed trying to build water mains and power conduits. Hardly systematic elimination of a peoples. If not for the Jihadi's, the killing would have ended over four years ago.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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They're not after all Iraqis, but they are after one religious faction of them. No?

No. That religious faction is sworn to the eradication of us. In that light, it's a prevention of genocide.

Wiping us out is genocide too, you know. We do count for something.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Well, at least you're honest, Eaglesmack. It seems like no one can give me an answer to that question.

As for genocide, if you check the definition I posted earlier, taken from the Genocide Watch website, it sounds to me like the shoe fits ... "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

They're not after all Iraqis, but they are after one religious faction of them. No?

Groups like Genocide Watch I am sure serve a purpose. I do not know much about them. However genocide has a distinct meaning. By their definition "in part" opens every conflict up to genocide. During WWII the Allies were clearly trying to destroy Germany and Japan "in part". So by their definition the Allies were committing genocide. The word genocide has a deep meaning in out psyche. So what better time than to roll out that word in an unpopular war. Anti-War Groups have to use every trick in the book because thus far they have failed. Now even the Democratic candidates for President in a debate last night cannot commit to withdrawing troops if elected.
 

EagleSmack

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Is there such a thing as suigenocide? It seems to me more Iraqi's are being killed by other Iraqi's than by Americans. Americans are being killed trying to build water mains and power conduits. Hardly systematic elimination of a peoples. If not for the Jihadi's, the killing would have ended over four years ago.

Good post. The most deaths have been Iraqi on Iraqi or muslim on muslim. I think the point is that if we didn't invade none of this would have happened so the US is responsible for all deaths in Iraq.

Just like we are responsible for everything that goes awry in the world. Then the world wonders why we are numb to world critisism.
 

EagleSmack

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Careful now.... A persecution complex is derived from delusions of grandeur and a guilty conscience.

Wolf

I don't feel persecuted Wolf. I just don't care. As the world piles up critisism... I yawn. I am unphased by it. I sleep soundly at night. Like I said... we are just numb to it.
 

YoungJoonKim

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Aug 19, 2007
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You see, what I see here is pointless discussion about another nation causing thousands of death

We need to lay the ground:
Aggression against Sovereign nation of Iraq by United States -
Cause

Result:
Thousands of death, millions of refugee and immigration, and thousands more hunger before U.S. occupation.
This is the cause & consequence effect. I am not blaming United States, I am not blaming Iraqis. I am blaming no one.

Now, what I suggested was facts. I saw millions of Iraqis fleeing, millions of dollars lost in trade revenue in Baghdad, and thousands of immigration to Sweden..(which is good thing for them).

This cannot be repaired because these are "memories"
Think of the future generation of Iraq, they will blame SOMEBODY for this and it is likely not Al-Qaeda or any other resistance group, it will be and must be United States.

So...good job..Mr. Bush
I believe that the Bush Administration was just fed up with Saddam and that is why
Funny thing...stupidiest reason for war.
If this is not imperialism, what is it?
Is politic & war like a child play?
Apparently, it is. For Bush and his Republican Party's possible nominees Guiliani and Fred.
And Obama (Oh..remember that YouTube debate? messed up...bad" and..maybe Clinton..lol
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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I don't feel persecuted Wolf. I just don't care. As the world piles up critisism... I yawn. I am unphased by it. I sleep soundly at night. Like I said... we are just numb to it.

You will be asleep when the reaper comes smack. You are as a nation totally numb and out of phase. Your self addmitted condition has reached criticle levels in your nation. That means you won't last much longer. You can yawn all the way into history.:smile:
 

EagleSmack

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You will be asleep when the reaper comes smack. You are as a nation totally numb and out of phase. Your self addmitted condition has reached criticle levels in your nation. That means you won't last much longer. You can yawn all the way into history.:smile:

LOL. We are numb to critisism. Like this post... it makes me yawn. These threats or hopeful predictions... make me yawn. We have been hearing about the fall of the USA for quite some time now...

Excuse me while I take a WICKED YAWN.

YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNN
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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How many civilians have died? TheStar.com - columnists - How many civilians have died?
September 20, 2007
Haroon Siddiqui

How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.

http://www.thestar.com/article/258511

Counting the casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan TheStar.com - columnists - Counting the casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan
September 23, 2007
Haroon Siddiqui

As if proving a widely held view that Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan tend to be trigger happy, Blackwater USA, a private security firm, is embroiled in a controversy over its involvement in a roadside shootout in Baghdad that killed eight Iraqis.
It turns out that the 30,000 American private security personnel in Iraq are among those immune from local prosecution.
That reminded me of the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
In October 1964, in the early stages of his anti-Shah agitation, he gave a colourful speech attacking the legal immunity enjoyed by Americans in Iran.
"If an American's servant or cook assassinates your marja (religious leader), the Iranian police do not have the right to apprehend him.
"But if someone runs over a dog belonging to an American, he'd be prosecuted. Even if the Shah himself were to run over a dog belonging to an American, he'd be prosecuted. But if an American cook runs over the Shah, no one would have the right to interfere with him."
Khomeini's words spread like wildfire. Within a month, he was exiled. He returned 15 years later, triumphant, having engineered a revolution that toppled the Shah and ended America's hold on Iran.
The ayatollah remains a reviled figure in the West. But his point is relevant to Iraq and Afghanistan, where the United States and its allies do not even count the local dead.
"Imagine the U.S. not investigating who died on Sept, 11, 2001 – it's unthinkable," says John Sloboda, co-founder of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based group that tracks the Iraqi death toll, which as of Friday stood at between 73,390 and 79,999.
Last week, a British polling firm, ORB, estimated the toll at a staggering 1.2 million. Last fall, the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health pegged it at 654,965.
In the case of Afghanistan, Marc Herold, a professor of economics at the University of New Hampshire, has been tracking casualties since 2001 and posting them on a website. In fact, it was his Afghan Victim Memorial Project that inspired Sloboda's.
Herold's "most conservative estimate" of Afghan civilian deaths resulting from American/NATO operations is between 5,700 and 6,500.
"This is the absolute minimum," he said over the phone. "It's probably a vast underestimate," because it does not include:
The dead among the tens of thousands displaced during the initial military operation in 2001-2002 and who ended up in refugee camps or elsewhere, with little or no supplies for long periods.
The victims of bombing in mountainous areas, which have few or no communications links or which the U.S./NATO forces "cordon off as part of news management."
Herold's figures also do not include the victims of the Taliban. Those are "significantly smaller," even though they are the ones highly publicized.
"If one were to believe the numbers of Taliban killed as reported, I dare say Afghanistan would have been depopulated!"
As in Iraq, there are conflicting estimates in Afghanistan. Reuters news agency, for example, reports that more than 7,000 have been killed in the last 19 months alone.
As for the number of Afghans injured, Herold says it's at least double the death toll. That would make it between 11,400 and 13,000.
How many displaced? Between 19,000 and 42,000, at a minimum.
The range of these estimates illustrates the difficulty of working in the official blackout. But Sloboda, Herold and others keep up their heroic efforts on shoestring budgets.
"It's a means of holding our governments accountable," says Sloboda, an internationally renowned professor of psychology at Keele University.
"As citizens, we bear watchdog responsibility. We are doing this so that at some later date, we can hand it over to some international tribunal or those undertaking truth and reconciliation and reparations work."
Herold adds that the more our governments hide the Afghan and Iraqi casualties, the more important it is to expose the grim details of what they have unleashed.


http://www.thestar.com/article/259269
 

Avro

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LOL. We are numb to critisism. Like this post... it makes me yawn. These threats or hopeful predictions... make me yawn. We have been hearing about the fall of the USA for quite some time now...

Excuse me while I take a WICKED YAWN.

YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNN

Your apathy says it all. I'm sure the Brits, Romans and Ottomans were the same way.
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Your apathy says it all. I'm sure the Brits, Romans and Ottomans were the same way.

The Brits, Romans and Ottomans ruled with an iron hand. We're not ruling anybody. Quite the contrary, the entire world sucks up our culture voluntarily. I would assert there is a difference.
 

Avro

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So.

What's your point?

Keep pretending there is no problem it may just go away on it's own.

Hopefully your next president can fix the damage done by W.