I REALLY would like you to explain yourself here. What exactley do you mean by the above.
Vietnam...
- Thread starter s_lone
- Start date
I REALLY would like you to explain yourself here. What exactley do you mean by the above.
Hell no. But the war meant huge profits for the wealthy elitists and that's what motivated the pols to create the war.
Gerry
The anti-war movement had a good start in the U.S. entrenched from east to west coast and the draft evaders, card burners, protesters and their sympathizers and families all had valid reason to fight against being sent to a war nobody gave a damn about.
The cowards who left for Canada are cowards. If they were loyal to their nation which they claimed to be they would have stayed and fought and yes gone to jail for their reasons - not run away. At the time I thought Canada was making a mistake but I didn't know enough about U.S. politics at the time as I was a kid and it was an adult world of war which meant nothing to me.
Canada was good to take them in but I wish they had not. In bringing up your children - would you teach them cowardice or stand up for what you believe in and bear the consequences like a responsible person even if it meant going to jail? Some of the people who stayed did their part in hospitals and clerical work, never picking up a weapon to fight - and they did their duty, right or wrong.
It's a personal decision - a difficult one - but running away is a coward's way. It's a lifelong decision.
Anyone can toke a doobie, write songs or lyrics, make a peace sign and grow a beard - it's a great disguise.
S_Lone
You are correct, I have made the assumption you are totally anti-American because of your questions you write here and let's face it the majority of writers here enjoy poking at the U.S. whether in dead seriousness or mocking the few Americans who write here as well.
So you live in the U.S.? If you do not - there is nothing to discuss. I am not about to embark on a long dissertation why the U.S. is more beneficial to reside within over Canada or any other nation. (I have only know those two so I have no other valid comparisons). My comparisons are between the U.S. and Canada only.
I have found that being critical of another nation is an opinion dredged from writings and opinions and reportage by other people and not one's personal experiences. The the only valid opinions I can appreciate -are from those who have lived within that nation. I detest France on a personal basis but I don't spend hours digging up all my reasons for my dislike. I will when the opportunity arises to poke at them, but not at anyone from that nation - the people from the U.S. are constantly being challenged by the U.K. and Canada. Why? That's the question I think we should be spending time on.
The criticism is rhetorical - having an answer or opinion already formed, trying to find someone to argue the point. It is great forum sport - keeps people feeling informed and well read.
It is how people should be - I have learned as much from the internet about people than I ever did in my studies. It is good the questions keep coming, the the misinterpretations, pre-formed rhetorical opinion, and non-constructive cricitism is a waste..... and unfortunately that is what the majority of the writing consists of.
I don't know if I have explained why I wrote to you as I did. Pointed questions are asked all the time - and usually are followed up with argument already set in stone.
I bet you can,t grow a beard Curiousity. toke a doobie, jesus you must be old.:smile:
Thanks DB for giving us an example of limited understanding - offering what amounts to an empty commentary adding very little to the discussion.
I am old - I was nine going on ten when I first became aware of Vietnam in 1970 - and doobie was the vernacular of that age. I had a brother of fifteen who was talking of joining the U.S., and had an uncle who did - he was twenty-four at the time.
Too deep for you?
No doubt you were rewriting a new Canadian Constitution when you were ten yes?
I am old - I was nine going on ten when I first became aware of Vietnam in 1970 - and doobie was the vernacular of that age. I had a brother of fifteen who was talking of joining the U.S., and had an uncle who did - he was twenty-four at the time.
Too deep for you?
No doubt you were rewriting a new Canadian Constitution when you were ten yes?
Curiosity, I was born in Quebec and still live in Quebec... My experience of the US is limited to Boston, New York, and Maine, where my family spent a couple of vacations... I particularly remember one year where we got stuck in a Hurricane (hurricane Bob I believe), we spent the night in a school turned into a shelter... we were extremely well received and everyone was extremely nice to us. This was enough to prove me the US is a beautiful country to live in.
Now that being said, I AM very critical of your government and of its history... But I have so much to learn... It's of course easier for me to have access to anti-US opinions but I always make a great effort to see the other side of a coin.
I find it funny that you say those who refused to go fighting (by fleeing to Canada) are cowards because we often get this view that the US is more based on individual freedom, yet, anyone who opposes 'the nation' is often viewed as a traitor... I for one would never go fight in a war I absolutely disagree with, would I be Canadian or American. My values and principles come way before my feeling of belonging to a nation.
If Canada was to put me in jail because I refused to fight a war being fought for the wrong reasons, I would be ashamed of being Canadian.
S_Lone
Thanks for your comments - yes the U.S. threatened to incarcerate the dodgers - and probably some were - I don't know. If it was the same situation in Canada - no doubt the dodgers in Canada would be severely punished as well. Were there any dodgers when Canadians were sent to battle? We never hear of them of course. Still - I doubt there is ever 100% agreement when a military force is sent anywhere in the world from Canada or the U.S. Things are so good for all of us - why do we have to go and kill strangers?
There were many other jobs the people of draft age could have done - if they were truly conscientious objectors - but many used that term because they didn't believe in going to war for themselves - whether the country did or not. Even 'beloved Bill Clinton' moved heaven and earth to be excused.
I wonder how many would go to war if the nation was attacked on its own shores? Probably the same because 9/11 proved there were many who sympathized with that too - both in the U.S. and Canada.
I fully agree people must be independent to make up their own minds whether the government does or not - however the dodgers are still cowards - there is plenty of free work to be done in the U.S. if they wanted to serve their time out. What does running away have to teach our young?
Did you know the U.S. is still being criticized for opting not to join either WWI or WWII when England its colonies did - when the war was waging against the U.K. Seems a bit on the 'other side' doesn't it?
The European war wasn't the U.S. fight at all - any more than Vietnam was Canada's fight - and they were finally bombed into joining by Pearl Harbor. Still, there were many Americans who went to Canada and joined the Canadian military or they went to England and joined there.
Yet the U.S. is always annotated as "late to join in the war"..... and at the end for bombing Japan ... you see with Canada...the U.S. can do nothing right.
There are many hard feelings between Canada and the U.S. and the people residing within the two - and the newcomers to the nations are being taught this way as well.
It is a shame - I think division weakens us. But I have no power to change it. Even as it escalates.
I love living here - I loved living in Canada. I don't go looking for excuses to blame for my life.
Thanks for your comments - yes the U.S. threatened to incarcerate the dodgers - and probably some were - I don't know. If it was the same situation in Canada - no doubt the dodgers in Canada would be severely punished as well. Were there any dodgers when Canadians were sent to battle? We never hear of them of course. Still - I doubt there is ever 100% agreement when a military force is sent anywhere in the world from Canada or the U.S. Things are so good for all of us - why do we have to go and kill strangers?
There were many other jobs the people of draft age could have done - if they were truly conscientious objectors - but many used that term because they didn't believe in going to war for themselves - whether the country did or not. Even 'beloved Bill Clinton' moved heaven and earth to be excused.
I wonder how many would go to war if the nation was attacked on its own shores? Probably the same because 9/11 proved there were many who sympathized with that too - both in the U.S. and Canada.
I fully agree people must be independent to make up their own minds whether the government does or not - however the dodgers are still cowards - there is plenty of free work to be done in the U.S. if they wanted to serve their time out. What does running away have to teach our young?
Did you know the U.S. is still being criticized for opting not to join either WWI or WWII when England its colonies did - when the war was waging against the U.K. Seems a bit on the 'other side' doesn't it?
The European war wasn't the U.S. fight at all - any more than Vietnam was Canada's fight - and they were finally bombed into joining by Pearl Harbor. Still, there were many Americans who went to Canada and joined the Canadian military or they went to England and joined there.
Yet the U.S. is always annotated as "late to join in the war"..... and at the end for bombing Japan ... you see with Canada...the U.S. can do nothing right.
There are many hard feelings between Canada and the U.S. and the people residing within the two - and the newcomers to the nations are being taught this way as well.
It is a shame - I think division weakens us. But I have no power to change it. Even as it escalates.
I love living here - I loved living in Canada. I don't go looking for excuses to blame for my life.
S_Lone
Here is one dodger who had better luck - it is taken from public record - Freedom Of Information Act... The laws just aren't consistent depending upon who you are.
Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft.
Selective Service Number 326 46 228.
Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.
Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969.
Bill Clinton refuses to report and is not inducted into the military.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07, 1969, under authority of Col. E. Holmes.
Clintonsigns enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment.
Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction.
Bill Clinton's birthdate lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is INELIGIBLE!
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.
Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21,1977 from President Carter.
Bill Clinton FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President of the United States.
Here is one dodger who had better luck - it is taken from public record - Freedom Of Information Act... The laws just aren't consistent depending upon who you are.
Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft.
Selective Service Number 326 46 228.
Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.
Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969.
Bill Clinton refuses to report and is not inducted into the military.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07, 1969, under authority of Col. E. Holmes.
Clintonsigns enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment.
Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction.
Bill Clinton's birthdate lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is INELIGIBLE!
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.
Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21,1977 from President Carter.
Bill Clinton FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President of the United States.
And you should be, everyone should be. So long as you can attempt an objective analysis, you won't go wrong. Knee-jerk anti-americanism used to get my blood boiling, until I understood that is was coming from the meek. So why bother debating an issue. I have thrown tons of evidence in every direction and from every direction, and it is never enough.
I used to be a flag burning (American) die hard socialist/marxist until my early twenties. It was the 80's after all. Until Istarted reading material not spoon fed to me. If anything, Europe made me more capitalist when I lived there than the US "system" could ever hope to accomplish.
Questioning government, not trusting government is paramount to a democracy. When you think your (any) politicians have done right by the people, then you're not paying attention and you're not being a good citizen. But there is a far cry from questioning government and believing anybody out there that has a political ax to grind.
S_lone, you're one of the vey few members here I enjoy reading criticism against the US, you're not anti-American, if anything, I believe you look up to the US and hope it will deliver what was promised 200 years ago.
Remember that the US is an experiment, we took a great many thoughts and ideas from all corners of the world to create a unique (And very American) Constitution. People get dissapointed of America, because most them, living on the outside, look up to America. I've had many conversations with many people all over the world, whether it be a tourist in New York, or a visit to their country, and I have found the same results. This experiment has been criticised from it's inception.
European elitists have had much to do with this since the US even existed. Do your research, look deep into history, and you will find many answers to your questions. We're certainly not infallible and we have phucked up big time, many times.
We've had our fair share of moronic Presidents in our hsitory. We've also accomplished a great many things, on our own, and with foreign assistance.
Keep the questions coming, they're very well presented IMO.
What a load of brainwashed crap!
I suppose you consider all those that fled China...the old Soviet Union cowards also since they didn't "stand up against their government, take responsibility for their actions and go to jail".
These people DID stand up, and the consequence was having to flee the country of their birth, their family and friends or lose their freedom. All for refusing to fight and die in an immoral and unjust war half way around the world. Simmilar to the war in Iraq right now, and what the AFghanistan conflict has turned into.
You brought up WWII in another reply. Comparing Vietnam to that war. How DARE you compare the two. There was and is no common ground to compare the reasons for each of those conflagerations.
Did you know that Canada declared war on Japan on the evening of Dec 7 1941 and the US did not declare until 9:30 am December 8 1941? Are we NUTZ?
Wolf
Wolf
Thank you for your feedback ITN. I do look up to the US in the sense that it has so much potential for positive change and revolution.
My understanding of American politics is limited, and you can all correct me if I'm wrong, but my feeling is that the traditional US desire for government to be less present in all spheres of society (compared to Canada), while boosting values of individual freedom and initiative, also had the subtle and perverse effect of creating a widening schism between the US government and the US population... This got to the point where the leadership of the US no longer represents its population but only itself.
When I hear Bush speaking, I don't hear the USA speaking, I hear Bush and his friends.
From what I understand of Vietnam, it was one of the first explicit examples of this dislocated America in which population and government are out of tune.
Yeah, some of the people who stayed got Daddy to bribe a Yale official to let them into university despite being stupid, and some lucky people got Daddy to get them into the National Guard.
Few of these lucky people were black.
There were many many many reasons why the US entered Vietnam.
None of them were MORAL reasons.
Very often if Jodie wanted university, Daddy wasn't going to buy him a way out because Daddy was probably a veteran of WW2, knew a pride that never existed in Vietnam and still believed there was honour in Government. COs with the means made college on their own merits and paid the big tuitions to do it. True enough, there were places to serve where you didn't pick up a weapon. They weren't always available either. There was no tour of duty for a civilian in a hospital ward or filing paper.
Call 'em what you will: Jodie, LMF, conscientious objector, coward, draft dodger, yellow. Leaving home and moving to a strange land because you believed in something took guts. From my perspective, there's another name you can call 'em too: life savers. One of the bad things about the draft is too many guys in uniform weren't into the job they had to do. Odd how authority couldn't win the hearts of drafted kids but thought they could win the hearts of civilians in a war-torn land.
If my stick is lighting in a hot DZ, it would do my heart good to know the kid down there who's helping to secure my perimeter isn't going to have second thoughts about firing that weapon - or isn't going to drop it, run and abandon my ass to come what too often did. If Jodie didn't want to go, he may have saved a lot of lives by NOT going....
Wolf
Call 'em what you will: Jodie, LMF, conscientious objector, coward, draft dodger, yellow. Leaving home and moving to a strange land because you believed in something took guts. From my perspective, there's another name you can call 'em too: life savers. One of the bad things about the draft is too many guys in uniform weren't into the job they had to do. Odd how authority couldn't win the hearts of drafted kids but thought they could win the hearts of civilians in a war-torn land.
If my stick is lighting in a hot DZ, it would do my heart good to know the kid down there who's helping to secure my perimeter isn't going to have second thoughts about firing that weapon - or isn't going to drop it, run and abandon my ass to come what too often did. If Jodie didn't want to go, he may have saved a lot of lives by NOT going....
Wolf
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It doesn't surprise me... it was a "Sneak" Declaration of War by Canada. :lol:
Does this by any stretch proves that Canada was more serious about the attack on Pearl Harbor than the US?
I just checked up on this... weren't you part of Britain? The UK declared war on Dec 8th. What was the Japanese action on Singapore on Dec 7th?
Something I have often wondered about Pearl Harbor....
If the U.S. wasn't at war - and they were in a depression where military expenditure was something they could not afford at the time - why was there a fully loaded military base at Pearl Harbor?
Anyone know?
If the U.S. wasn't at war - and they were in a depression where military expenditure was something they could not afford at the time - why was there a fully loaded military base at Pearl Harbor?
Anyone know?
Canadian troops were sent to shore up British forces in the Pacific when Japanese intentions became clear. Japan attacked Singapore within minutes of their attacks on the Philipines. Seems they followed the sun from Pearl.
Wolf