Catholic Discussion

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Okay so you support it, then how do you refute Matthew 23?

BTW, I DO know a few (3 to be exacte) that do not like the title due to Matt 23, I think they prefer pastor (which is what my minister prefers as well) (FYI there are also married RC priests)

Granted I have spoken to far more priests who insist on being called father. (which I have never done)

"The priesthood was established by Christ" Of COURSE it was! but that does not directly mean roman catholic priesthood.

"it is He who has given His priesthood the religious authroity" - I would love to know where it says in the bible that priests/ministers/pastors have authority over the religion!! That is a scary statement.

What it says is listen to your ministor do as he says, but not necessarily what he does. The bible also tells us to be causious of who we listen to.

But never mind all that I would really like to hear your refute to Matthew 23

Since you insist:
The quote from the Gospel of St. Matthew must be read in the context of the whole of Chapter 23, in which Our Lord Jesus Christ denounces in general the pride and hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees: the contrast between their words and their actions (v. 3); the heavy burdens they placed on the shoulders of the people without giving any assistance (v. 4); their love to be seen and praised (v. 5).
Our Lord’s words were meant to provide a lesson in humility, exhorting His followers to realize that only the Heavenly Father is the genuine Father, while all others simply partake, or reveal a part, of His Paternity. Christ concluded His admonitions, saying: "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" (v.12).
A literal understanding of Our Lord’s words would lead to an absurd conclusion, prohibiting ourselves from calling our natural fathers "father," while allowing us to call our mothers "mother." Yet, such an interpretation would go against Sacred Scripture itself, where Our Lady says to the Child Jesus: "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously" (St. Luke 2, 48).
St. Paul confirms that there are various types of fatherhood, all of which are based on the Fatherhood of God: "For this cause I bow my knees to the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity in heaven and on earth is named" (Eph. 3, 15 [Douai]). Abraham is acknowledged as the father of all who have faith, both in the Old and the New Law: "He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them" (Rom. 4, 11).
St. Paul goes on to apply the term "father" to himself, while on more than one occasion writes to his own as if they were his children:
"I am not writing this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4, 14-15);
"Here I am, ready to come to you this third time. And I will not be a burden, because I do not want what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12, 14);
"To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1, 2 [Douai]);
"To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Savior" (Tit. 1, 4 [Douai]);
"I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment" (Phile. 1, 10).
In similar vain do the Apostles themselves write:
"Your sister church in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5, 13);
"I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven on account of his name. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning" (1 John 2, 12).
From these verses it is evident that the title "father" was used not with any sense of pride, but rather to engender tenderness and affection within spiritual relationships. The Catholic Church wishes Her children to act in the same way when addressing those who partake in God’s Fatherhood through preaching Christ’s Gospel and sanctifying the faithful.
The Fathers:
The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (C. 155 - 157 A.D.) :
(St. Polycarp was called) "teacher of Asia and father of the Christians."
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):
"He who has received the teaching from another’s mouth is called the son of his instructor, and he is called his father."
St. John Chrysostom (+ 407 A.D.), In 1 Tim. hom. 6:
"...priests are the fathers of all, it is their duty to attend to all their spiritual children, edifying them first by a holy life, and afterwards by salutary instructions."
St. Gregory the Great (+ 605 A.D.), In Evang. hom. 17:
" Priests are Patres Christianorum (the Fathers of Christians)."
Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566):
In the first place, the prelates of the Church, her pastors and priests are called fathers, as is evident from the Apostle, who, writing to the Corinthians, says: I write not these things to confound you; but I admonish you as my dearest children. For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers...It is written in Ecclesiasticus: Let us praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation...Those who govern the State, to whom are entrusted power, magistracy, or command, are also called fathers; thus Naaman was called father by his servants...The name father is also applied to those to whose care, fidelity, probity and wisdom others are committed, such as teachers, instructors, masters and guardians; and hence the sons of the Prophets called Elijah and Eliseus their father.
Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992):
No. 1549: Through the ordained ministry, especially that of bishops and priests, the presence of Christ as head of the Church is made visible in the midst of the community of believers. In the beautiful expression of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop is typos tou Patros: he is like the living image of God the Father.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
I took Matthew 23 to mean that you should not worship the head of your church, not that you should not use a certain word. Many cults are based, not on worship of Christ or God, but on worship and adoration of the man leading them. But, that could just be my take on it. If giving someone a title of authority over you is wrong, then how is pastor any better than father, teacher, or rabbi, except in that it is new language, not necessarily present in biblical time to be included in this list?

Well said!
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
Good explanation Sanctus of the biblical references.

I too had a problem with that until God gave me understanding.

I would respectfully call you father as a title earned and fitting for Gods work. As I would a Rabi, an elder, a pastor.

The bearer of any religious title must live an exemplary life worthy of the office of which he or she is called.

We do it because we love God and neighbor.

And Graeme,


A Christian is a Christ-like individual whose heart and soul are given to Christ.

Many Christians define Christians by what they don't understand, and have yet to learn, for they are yet babes in Christ and in need of instructions on growing.

Your on your way to gaining understanding bro, keep working on it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Quote:
father, whats the whole deal with aj anyway? where does he get his notions from????>>>mapleleafgirl



AJ, though deluded by false doctrines, means well. He seeks Christ as we all do, and seeks a greater understanding of how Christ works in us to bring us to the Father. Like many of us, he is filled with pride in his own wisdom and so rejects much of the faith and the Scriptures in order to conform the faith to his own definition. Rather than approach God with humility and open-ness, he prefers that God be conformed to his interpretation and image.

There are many, many people just like AJ in this world. They see god as a construct open to how they have decided to define Him. Rejecting His Church, rejecting His Scriptures, instead they allow themselves to create their own faith based on their own ideas.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
Quote:
father, whats the whole deal with aj anyway? where does he get his notions from????>>>mapleleafgirl



AJ, though deluded by false doctrines, means well. He seeks Christ as we all do, and seeks a greater understanding of how Christ works in us to bring us to the Father. Like many of us, he is filled with pride in his own wisdom and so rejects much of the faith and the Scriptures in order to conform the faith to his own definition. Rather than approach God with humility and open-ness, he prefers that God be conformed to his interpretation and image.

There are many, many people just like AJ in this world. They see god as a construct open to how they have decided to define Him. Rejecting His Church, rejecting His Scriptures, instead they allow themselves to create their own faith based on their own ideas.

Thank you for your assesment of my belief, Sanctus.............................................


Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
A NIGHT PRAYER TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER

Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o'er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

I am going to sleep now, day's work is done;
Its hours and its moments have passed one by one.
God Who will judge me, has counted them all;
He has numbered each grace, He has counted each fall;

In His book they are written against the last day.
Oh! Mother Ask Jesus to wash them away.
For one drop of His Blood for sinners was spilt,
Is sufficient to cleanse the world of its guilt.

And if er' the dawn I should draw my last breath;
The sleep I take be the long sleep of death;
Be near me Mother for dear Jesus' sake.
When at eternity shore my soul shall awake.

Amen.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
113
63
Vancouver Island
I have had a busy, enjoyable, hectic day, of shopping and chit chatting with my oldest daughter in
Nanaimo. I am home now, after a long drive, tired eyes, feet kicked up, and relaxing.

Your prayer, (even though you know where I stand on believing/not) is very calming, and I felt
my body and mind totally relax and feel at peace after reading it,

Thank you.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
I have had a busy, enjoyable, hectic day, of shopping and chit chatting with my oldest daughter in
Nanaimo. I am home now, after a long drive, tired eyes, feet kicked up, and relaxing.

Your prayer, (even though you know where I stand on believing/not) is very calming, and I felt
my body and mind totally relax and feel at peace after reading it,

Thank you.


That is its purpose..no sincere prayer goes wasted:)
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
Sanctus,

A question for you re restoration of Israel --

We have had numerous discussions on this forum re Israel and Zionism. As you know from reading the Holy Bible, only the Messiah Jesus can restore Israel as per Acts 1:6,7; Daniel 7:13-14; Zechariah 9:9, and many other biblical verses. You also know that anyone who denies Jesus's messianism is an antichrist {I John 4:2,3} and that all biblical laws must be honored {I John 5:3}.

On that basis, what do you make of those who deny that only Jesus has this Divine right?
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Sanctus,

A question for you re restoration of Israel --

We have had numerous discussions on this forum re Israel and Zionism. As you know from reading the Holy Bible, only the Messiah Jesus can restore Israel as per Acts 1:6,7; Daniel 7:13-14; Zechariah 9:9, and many other biblical verses. You also know that anyone who denies Jesus's messianism is an antichrist {I John 4:2,3} and that all biblical laws must be honored {I John 5:3}.

On that basis, what do you make of those who deny that only Jesus has this Divine right?

I'm not sure I agree, to be honest with you. Israel has already been re-established. The Jewish people, for the most part, have rejected Jesus as the Messiah. I think we need to understand that according to the traditions of the faith, the Church is now the chosen people, the set aside ones, for God.

This is probably not the answer you were seeking, but I suspect when Christ does return it will not be in the context of the pentecostal version of same.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
15
38
Northern California
In God’s 7-day creation plan, the first 4 days include all humanity from its beginning. That is looked at as 4 thousand years. Since one day to God is as like a 1,000 years to mankind.
The key to understanding is found in the bible: Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitude’s, by the ministry of the prophets.

This is key in understanding because we can not take some stories in the bible literally, but figuratively, as visions and similitudes.

The 7-day creation is one such story.

Continuing, as I said the first four days are given to humanity to rule themselves.
The 5th day is Israel and the introduction of the God and the law and the 6th is the new creation day, “the day of the Lord” when He makes it all new.

Because the cup of Jesus is doubled, means that the fifth and sixth day are also doubled to 2,000 years each.

The first 5 days are figuratively and the 6th day is literal 2,000 years, because Christ begun it’s time table at His death.

Given then that Jesus died about 29 AD, add 2,000 years we come to 2029AD.

This is the time given to the Jews to suffer the double portion with Christ. After that, Christ will turn their hearts to Him and they shall all be saved.

When that happens, then where ever they go throughout the world, they will bring healing to the nations.

Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

The rivers are the Jews whose hearts have been turned to Christ and are on a quest to teach and bring the good news to the world. And as the river pours out to the sea, the sea represents the whole of humanity as like fish.

Jesus being the one fish in the midst of the sea (People) who is the Savior of them all.

Now, coming to this conclusion as explained is determined by the make up of the bits and pieces of the grand puzzle of God.

The bible is a puzzle with many bits and pieces and it is to the serious student who loves and meditates on the word to pull those pieces tighter to see the big picture.

I don’t know, if I will be around to witness that event, but it makes no difference to me since I have already found my rest, where as Israel is still searching for theirs.

Many will not understand what I said, and some will criticize it, but hey, I am not the least bothered by it, since I know I am secure in what I believe.

My foundation is laid at Calvary and that’s the one I stand on. It is ever my present refuge in times of trouble and in one in which I shall not be moved.

Jesus is that solid rock (Foundation) and there is no other. Of that kind of faith (Solid as a rock, Jesus) He builds His church of which I am a stone of many in it, Jesus being the chief Conner stone.

That’s my rendition of it, enjoy.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:





 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
In God’s 7-day creation plan, the first 4 days include all humanity from its beginning. That is looked at as 4 thousand years. Since one day to God is as like a 1,000 years to mankind.
The key to understanding is found in the bible: Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitude’s, by the ministry of the prophets.

This is key in understanding because we can not take some stories in the bible literally, but figuratively, as visions and similitudes.

The 7-day creation is one such story.

Continuing, as I said the first four days are given to humanity to rule themselves.
The 5th day is Israel and the introduction of the God and the law and the 6th is the new creation day, “the day of the Lord” when He makes it all new.

Because the cup of Jesus is doubled, means that the fifth and sixth day are also doubled to 2,000 years each.

The first 5 days are figuratively and the 6th day is literal 2,000 years, because Christ begun it’s time table at His death.

Given then that Jesus died about 29 AD, add 2,000 years we come to 2029AD.

This is the time given to the Jews to suffer the double portion with Christ. After that, Christ will turn their hearts to Him and they shall all be saved.

When that happens, then where ever they go throughout the world, they will bring healing to the nations.

Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

The rivers are the Jews whose hearts have been turned to Christ and are on a quest to teach and bring the good news to the world. And as the river pours out to the sea, the sea represents the whole of humanity as like fish.

Jesus being the one fish in the midst of the sea (People) who is the Savior of them all.

Now, coming to this conclusion as explained is determined by the make up of the bits and pieces of the grand puzzle of God.

The bible is a puzzle with many bits and pieces and it is to the serious student who loves and meditates on the word to pull those pieces tighter to see the big picture.

I don’t know, if I will be around to witness that event, but it makes no difference to me since I have already found my rest, where as Israel is still searching for theirs.

Many will not understand what I said, and some will criticize it, but hey, I am not the least bothered by it, since I know I am secure in what I believe.

My foundation is laid at Calvary and that’s the one I stand on. It is ever my present refuge in times of trouble and in one in which I shall not be moved.

Jesus is that solid rock (Foundation) and there is no other. Of that kind of faith (Solid as a rock, Jesus) He builds His church of which I am a stone of many in it, Jesus being the chief Conner stone.

That’s my rendition of it, enjoy.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

where does this data come from?
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
In God’s 7-day creation plan, the first 4 days include all humanity from its beginning. That is looked at as 4 thousand years. Since one day to God is as like a 1,000 years to mankind.
The key to understanding is found in the bible: Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitude’s, by the ministry of the prophets.

This is key in understanding because we can not take some stories in the bible literally, but figuratively, as visions and similitudes.

The 7-day creation is one such story.

Continuing, as I said the first four days are given to humanity to rule themselves.
The 5th day is Israel and the introduction of the God and the law and the 6th is the new creation day, “the day of the Lord” when He makes it all new.

Because the cup of Jesus is doubled, means that the fifth and sixth day are also doubled to 2,000 years each.

The first 5 days are figuratively and the 6th day is literal 2,000 years, because Christ begun it’s time table at His death.

Given then that Jesus died about 29 AD, add 2,000 years we come to 2029AD.

This is the time given to the Jews to suffer the double portion with Christ. After that, Christ will turn their hearts to Him and they shall all be saved.

When that happens, then where ever they go throughout the world, they will bring healing to the nations.

Eze 47:9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

The rivers are the Jews whose hearts have been turned to Christ and are on a quest to teach and bring the good news to the world. And as the river pours out to the sea, the sea represents the whole of humanity as like fish.

Jesus being the one fish in the midst of the sea (People) who is the Savior of them all.

Now, coming to this conclusion as explained is determined by the make up of the bits and pieces of the grand puzzle of God.

The bible is a puzzle with many bits and pieces and it is to the serious student who loves and meditates on the word to pull those pieces tighter to see the big picture.

I don’t know, if I will be around to witness that event, but it makes no difference to me since I have already found my rest, where as Israel is still searching for theirs.

Many will not understand what I said, and some will criticize it, but hey, I am not the least bothered by it, since I know I am secure in what I believe.

My foundation is laid at Calvary and that’s the one I stand on. It is ever my present refuge in times of trouble and in one in which I shall not be moved.

Jesus is that solid rock (Foundation) and there is no other. Of that kind of faith (Solid as a rock, Jesus) He builds His church of which I am a stone of many in it, Jesus being the chief Conner stone.

That’s my rendition of it, enjoy.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

since this thread is catholic discussion..is this in accordance with catholic doctine? if not, what do you bother??????????????????
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
864
12
18
34
windsor,ontario
Uhhh...noooo...I'm just trying to understand the statement. Is that so terrible? Am I doing something so horribly wrong again? Have I offended once more by asking a question? I'm such a jerk for asking stuff....man.


havent offended me...you just bore me.....why do you ask questions when sanctus never, but never, replies to anything you write?(or havent you noticed)