Our Glorious Afghan Mission

[L Gilbert]

"Taliban 'in control' in Helmand"

Oh, good. There's a comforting thought.

http://www.rawa.org/un-reprt.htm

http://www.now.org/nnt/fall-98/global.html

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/7/a/mafg.htm

http://hrw.org/wr2k2/asia1.html

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/afghanistan!Open

 

[talloola]

talloola,
Well said and thank you. It is a her (Major, USA 10th mtn. Div.) and she is really complimentary opf the multi-national attempts but she said it is still too little. Whoever it is that sets the goals and plans the sizing of the assistance is far too conservative. Good qualified medical assistance is a primary need along with food and blankets. Mothers give birth to their young in unsheltered conditions and the men are occupying a shelter right next to the birth site. A day after childbirth the mother is expected to be back to the chores and cooking. Other than fighting and sitting around drinking a strong coffee the men do very little to support the family units.
'''''From our vantage point that is "so" pitiful. I suppose the women totally accept this way of life, and
know no other, and I imagine if they ever complained, there would be hell to pay, or, "do they ever
complain.!!!'''''''

One thing the NATO units have is food, water, medical attention and protection from the weather elements with them.
'''''So, then, after all the military forces, NATO, etc have gone out of the country, I wonder if anyone
will remain to supply those needs, further, and if not, what will they do.'''''

That alone is encouraging but no where nearly adequate. She says the bad guys come and go freely and it is difficult to see who the adversaries are. Every man is armed and none wear any kind of uniforms. The guy who gives you coffee at one hour may be the one who tries to shoot you during the next hour.
'''''That is very difficult for our forces, so, I would agree that they should wind down their efforts in
that country and come home. I also think it would be best if we just leave them to their own lives,
but our efforts are from the "heart" and for a good cause, as in this country we can't begin to fatham
the devastation they have had to deal with over the years, it is unbelievable. When everyone has
gone home, and they live on, I guess they will be gradually taken over again by the taliban, and then
that means Osama Bin Laden and all others like him will move back in to the area they had before.
What a strange part of the world, in our thoughts, like another planet, or more like people from
out of a very very old age. As someone pointed out to me on another post, the taliban are not even
really of a muslim/islamic believe system, more like an old feudal/medievil society.

'''''I suppose they accept "death" quite easily because they believe that the next life is better, and the
one we are living is not important. That is sad, as our lives are very precious, and we should
cherish every day we live. What a difference in belief systems, and I am not even a believer in
any religion, just a believer in the importance of our lives here on this earth. '''''

 

[talloola]

My military involvement with the UN was terrible experience. We were tasked to supply starving mnative families aon the edge of the Sahara Desert and we did have a makeshift runway and taxiways capped with a clay type soil. If it rained the stuff became very slick but when it dried out we would use rollers to compact it. Entire plane loads of badly needed relief supplies were being diverted by corrupt military officers of the government asking for help and being routed to balck market sources. Right under the noses of the UN appointees who were supposed to be the keepers of the stored supplies. Physical attacks were witnessed daily upon starving peoples by a different sect of another tribe. Again, all under the nose of the UN staff who wanted to keep everyone appeased. It wasn't working and then I started to fear for the welfare of the UN staff. I voiced that concern to their commander who told me to, just keep you mouth shut and fly in those supplies as you were ordered to do." I diod but I witenessed some terrible attrocities and when I did mnention it later in a debriefing I was chastised for not being understanding of the entire situation. If those behaviors were to occur on our soil there would be ahuge outcry from our citizens. The UN appointees failed those needy people miserably and then later were commended for their spirit and dedication. Excuse me!

That makes me sick too, and leaves all of us so helpless, as we imagine the un as a body who
is so "genuine" in their efforts to help, but I have learned from you, and others, that isn't so.

 

[talloola]

My military involvement with the UN was terrible experience. We were tasked to supply starving mnative families aon the edge of the Sahara Desert and we did have a makeshift runway and taxiways capped with a clay type soil. If it rained the stuff became very slick but when it dried out we would use rollers to compact it. Entire plane loads of badly needed relief supplies were being diverted by corrupt military officers of the government asking for help and being routed to balck market sources. Right under the noses of the UN appointees who were supposed to be the keepers of the stored supplies. Physical attacks were witnessed daily upon starving peoples by a different sect of another tribe. Again, all under the nose of the UN staff who wanted to keep everyone appeased. It wasn't working and then I started to fear for the welfare of the UN staff. I voiced that concern to their commander who told me to, just keep you mouth shut and fly in those supplies as you were ordered to do." I diod but I witenessed some terrible attrocities and when I did mnention it later in a debriefing I was chastised for not being understanding of the entire situation. If those behaviors were to occur on our soil there would be ahuge outcry from our citizens. The UN appointees failed those needy people miserably and then later were commended for their spirit and dedication. Excuse me

 

[L Gilbert]

.......
I think to best way to measure progress is to compare Afghanistan before 9/11 and since:.......

I don't. It'd be better to compare after Afghanistan finds some stability. It'd certainly be a lot fairer comparison and more balanced.

 

[darkbeaver]

I don't. It'd be better to compare after Afghanistan finds some stability. It'd certainly be a lot fairer comparison and more balanced.

Afghans do not even have a fully developed national identity it's the family first and then the tribe, it's an old patriarchal hierarchy , it has always been loose tribal affiliations, the borders of the surrounding countrys define the geography of the country. It will continue to be impossible to drop democracy on the place. The Taliban are not the western ideal of government but they did bring a measure of stability to the country and for all thier cruelty they did not kill a fraction of the people. Democracy will take a long time.But thats not why the forigne occupyers are there. Secureing the region is the reason for Canadas participation, the pipeline route from the Caspian sea, nobody gets it but Uncle Sam.

 

[talloola]

Afghans do not even have a fully developed national identity it's the family first and then the tribe, it's an old patriarchal hierarchy , it has always been loose tribal affiliations, the borders of the surrounding countrys define the geography of the country. It will continue to be impossible to drop democracy on the place. The Taliban are not the western ideal of government but they did bring a measure of stability to the country and for all thier cruelty they did not kill a fraction of the people.

'''''I would rather be dead than live under the thumb, and whip, of such a "cruel" uncivilized group of
people as the taliban, can you anyone imagine, as a woman, walking along and having one of them
whipping the back of your legs, or, "just' not having any power at all, no thank you.'''''

Democracy will take a long time.But thats not why the forigne occupyers are there. Secureing the region is the reason for Canadas participation, the pipeline route from the Caspian sea, nobody gets it but Uncle Sam

'''''They can develop their own "type" of democracy, as they could never have or want ours.
And, it seems that any government in that country will be "corrupt", so the west should leave
them to their own destiny as soon as the recent activities and construction are completed, and
other NATO groups agree to do same.'''''

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't. It'd be better to compare after Afghanistan finds some stability. It'd certainly be a lot fairer comparison and more balanced.

When will that happen?

I still believe in the Afghanistan mission. It isn't about oil or ethnic cleansing. Instead of hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing Afghanistan, millions of refugees have returned. People are still dying, but the situation has improved rather than gotten worse.

Until Afghanistan's opium production problem has been solved, Afghanistan will remain lawless and unstable. Since many countries have critical pain killer shortages, it makes sense to try to solve two problems at once.

The world should turn Afghanistan's opium warlords into honest businessmen. I'm sure they aren't any less scrupulous than big tobacco or big alcohol...

 

[L Gilbert]

Afghans do not even have a fully developed national identity it's the family first and then the tribe, it's an old patriarchal hierarchy , it has always been loose tribal affiliations, the borders of the surrounding countrys define the geography of the country. It will continue to be impossible to drop democracy on the place. The Taliban are not the western ideal of government but they did bring a measure of stability to the country and for all thier cruelty they did not kill a fraction of the people.

I don't need a history lesson from you.
Perhaps your heroes did contribute stability. But I guess the cruelty and sex slavery doesn't matter to you. So what's better: being dead or living a life of abject misery? Personally, I prefer to think of women as fellow human beings. So, as far as I'm concerned ANY change over there would be an improvement at least for the women.

 

[L Gilbert]

When will that happen?

lol
Do I look clairvoyant?

I still believe in the Afghanistan mission. It isn't about oil or ethnic cleansing. Instead of hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing Afghanistan, millions of refugees have returned. People are still dying, but the situation has improved rather than gotten worse.

Until Afghanistan's opium production problem has been solved, Afghanistan will remain lawless and unstable. Since many countries have critical pain killer shortages, it makes sense to try to solve two problems at once.

The world should turn Afghanistan's opium warlords into honest businessmen. I'm sure they aren't any less scrupulous than big tobacco or big alcohol...

I agree partially. Not quite sure which way to think about the drug issue.
The fact remains that comparing old stable Afghanistan to current Afghanistan would be similar to comparing old America to Civil War America or some such thing.

 

[Blackleaf]

All you summed up for anybody was you. Have you no pity for the innocent? Have you no thought of the destruction of human life or do you not think them worthy of common decency? I never once defended the Taliban nor thier actions. You mistake disgust and contempt for murder and war as if it were the enemy. If the post about the women in Afghanistan cannot reach your miserable excuse for a heart but common servile patriotic crap comforts you, then you are not quite human enough for me.

Innocent civilians get killed in war. That's just how it is. The killing of innocent civilians does NOT make a war unjustifiable.

The Allies killed thousands of innocent civilans in World War II, but that was a justifiable war.

Although if that was was being fought today, thousands of hand-wringing Canadians would probably still protest against it.

 

[earth_as_one]

lol
Do I look clairvoyant?

I agree partially. Not quite sure which way to think about the drug issue.
The fact remains that comparing old stable Afghanistan to current Afghanistan would be similar to comparing old America to Civil War America or some such thing.

I don't think its fair to go back before 2000. Afghanistan is better off since the invasion, not worse. Fewer people are dying now. Clearly Afghanistan has improved.

Afghanistan is not Iraq. Iraq was peaceful before the US invaded/occupied. Iraqi refugees are fleeing Iraq not returning. Iraqis are far worse off now than they were before.

What makes a war justifiable is if it is a "Just War"

• Comparative justice: While there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to override the presumption against the use of force, the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other;

• Legitimate authority: Only duly constituted public authorities may use deadly force or wage war;

• Right intention: Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose—correcting a suffered wrong is considered a right intention, while material gain or maintaining economies is not.

• Probability of success: Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success;

• Proportionality: The overall destruction expected from the use of force must be outweighed by the good to be achieved.[6]

• Last resort: Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war#Theory

Afghanistan isn't a shining example of Just War, but it isn't just a war like Iraq either.

 

[I think not]

I don't think its fair to go back before 2000. Afghanistan is better off since the invasion, not worse. Fewer people are dying now. Clearly Afghanistan has improved.

Afghanistan is not Iraq. Iraq was peaceful before the US invaded/occupied. Iraqi refugees are fleeing Iraq not returning. Iraqis are far worse off now than they were before.

What makes a war justifiable is if it is a "Just War"


Afghanistan isn't a shining example of Just War, but it isn't just a war like Iraq either.

Of course it was peaceful. That's what dictators do, keep the peace. Just look at North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam. They're peaceful also.

 

[darkbeaver]

So what I understand from the bulk of the posts here is that , it.s o/k by most of you if the police drop into your backyard and kill granny and a couple of babies and then tell you what to watch on TV, what colour to paint the house,how high the grass can be, and what's acceptable dicussion in your house, and who your friends will be. What a bunch of quizzling cowardly clowns.:laughing7::wave:

 

[Colpy]

So what I understand from the bulk of the posts here is that , it.s o/k by most of you if the police drop into your backyard and kill granny and a couple of babies and then tell you what to watch on TV, what colour to paint the house,how high the grass can be, and what's acceptable dicussion in your house, and who your friends will be. What a bunch of quizzling cowardly clowns.:laughing7::wave:

Ah, excuse me?

If I hide guys in my basement who emerge occassionally to lob molotov cocktails into my neighbours' houses and fire a few shots at their kids, while I casually hang my wife and her sisters from the maple tree in the backyard, you can be damned sure the cops will drop by. And they will do everything necessary to stop me, and then I will be controled..........

And rightfully so.

The "Quisling cowardly clowns" are those that would allow such things to continue.

 

[Zzarchov]

The American military pay no attention to the rules of war, civilians are the most effective targets of state terrorism. The Empire has torn up or refused to sign every international treaty covering the rules of war.:wave:

Then you are daft.

If America was truly doing as you said, there would be no afghanistan. An industrialized nation which wished to act as you say it does..Would.

And within days there wouldnt' be a damn living thing in Afghanistan they didn't wish to be.

And it would be much simpler, no civilians means no terrorists, and free land to extract all the resources you want.


I understand, its typical teenage angst (which bleeds into adulthood) to side with the underdog.

But being the underdog doesn't mean your the good guy, as much as hollywood likes to indoctrinate the culture otherwise.

You'll grow out of it :wave:

 

[Sparrow]

I believe that we are in Afghanistan for good reason. Some of the others I cannot say due to their past history of involvement in Afghanistan. Soldiers and fighting are necessary to oust the Taliban, but I believe this war should be fought on two front simultaneously. These are simple people who need to be shown that their lives can be improved with our help. We complain about the drugs grown there, to what length would you go to feed your family more importantly just survive. The land is not fertile and the only real crop they can grow is drugs. Ok, let get off our high horses and find a way that they can produce and sell their product. In an above post someone mentioned that the drug companies have a shortage of drugs to make pain killers. Why not set up an Opiate Board that would control the sale of drugs to licensed users. This way they might be able to make enough money to be able to do something with their lands to grow staple foods. Today some of the allied forces are destroying the fields which give the message to the people, we don't care if you starve but you cannot grow the only money maker you can produce. How would you like it if armes came into your country and told you that you cannot grow vegetables and fruit because it is against our policy. I am sure some would say s***w you and try to grow them just the same to feed your families.

If we want to win the war we must help the people more if not as much as we fight the Taliban. Creating a void between getting rid of the Taliban and enabling the people to sustain themselves will never work. For every poppy field that is destroyed they need a replacement crop.

These people for many many years have been killed, tortured, raped and their land devastated by conquer after conquer and dictators. The status of women and children have improved but their husbands and fathers need to fed them.

 

[earth_as_one]

If a government is responsible for murder rape and torture then would you agree they aren't fit to govern?

[SIZE=+2]An American Way of War[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]Torture, Rape, Murder[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]By MATT SIEGFRIED[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]he photographs of US soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners have become symbols of American conceit, American hypocrisy and American brutality. The folly of the Iraq adventure seems to be summed up by pyres of naked, bound and hooded men smiled over by the missionaries of American democracy. More than one right wing commentator in the United States has likened these acts to college pranks.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Most of the world, however, fails to see the humor in employing attack dogs, surgical gloves, digital cameras, sodomizing broom sticks and duct tape to torture prisoners, many of them guilty of only being Iraqis, in an orgy of power exercise. The self described experts on the Arab mind of the North American press have repeatedly told us that sexual humiliation is especially damaging to the Arab male with their allegedly macho and homophobic Islamic culture. After all, if US prisons are any indication, we Americans have a much greater tolerance for rape than those testy Iraqis do. In this, as in all things, if only they could be a little more like us these little misunderstandings would disappear.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It must be said that these revelations have had the effect they have had, including in swinging important segments of the American population against the administration of Dick Cheney and George W. Bush and casting their reelection in doubt,...[/SIZE]

http://www.counterpunch.org/siegfried06052004.html

But the US re-elected the people responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. In a way, Americans re-elected their version of the Taliban.

 

[earth_as_one]

Then you are daft.

If America was truly doing as you said, there would be no afghanistan. An industrialized nation which wished to act as you say it does..Would.

And within days there wouldnt' be a damn living thing in Afghanistan they didn't wish to be.

And it would be much simpler, no civilians means no terrorists, and free land to extract all the resources you want.


I understand, its typical teenage angst (which bleeds into adulthood) to side with the underdog.

But being the underdog doesn't mean your the good guy, as much as hollywood likes to indoctrinate the culture otherwise.

You'll grow out of it :wave:

I believe what goes around comes around. We cannot compromise when it comes to being just or fair. That means respecting human dignity.

Your argument is???? Be grateful we haven't killed more innocent people.

I doubt its possible to win anyone's hearts or minds while we keep forcing them to bury their relatives and friends or what we call collateral damage. Not killing Afghanistan civilians is also about our own protection. If we don't value their lives, why should they value ours?

 

[darkbeaver]

[SIZE=+1]February 27, 2007[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+2]The Case for Withdrawal from Afghanistan[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]The Khyber Impasse[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+2]By TARIQ ALI[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]I[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]t is Year 6 of the UN-backed NATO occupation of Afghanistan, a joint US/EU mission. On 26 February there was an attempted assassination of Dick Cheney by Taliban suicide bombers while he was visiting the 'secure' US air base at Bagram (once an equally secure Soviet air base during an earlier conflict). Two US soldiers and a mercenary ('contractor') died in the attack, as did twenty other people working at the base. This episode alone should have concentrated the US Vice-President's mind on the scale of the Afghan debacle. In 2006 the casualty rates rose substantially and NATO troops lost forty-six soldiers in clashes with the Islamic resistance or shot-down helicopters.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The insurgents now control at least twenty districts in the Kandahar, Helmand, Uruzgan provinces where NATO troops have replaced US soldiers. And it is hardly a secret that many officials in these zones are closet supporters of the guerrilla fighters. The situation is out of control. At the beginning of this war Mrs Bush and Mrs Blair appeared on numerous TV and radio shows claiming that the aim of the war was to liberate Afghan women. Try repeating that today and the women will spit in your face.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Who is responsible for this disaster? Why is the country still subjugated? What are Washington's strategic goals in the region? What is the function of NATO? And how long can any country remain occupied against the will of a majority of its people?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Few tears were shed in Afghanistan and elsewhere when the Taliban fell, the hopes aroused by Western demagogy did not last too long. It soon became clear that the new transplanted elite would cream off a bulk of the foreign aid and create its own criminal networks of graft and patronage. The people suffered. A mud cottage with a thatched roof to house a family of homeless refugees costs fewer than five thousand dollars. How many have been built? Hardly any. There are reports each year of hundreds of shelter-less Afghans freezing to death each winter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Instead a quick-fix election was organised at high cost by Western PR firms and essentially for the benefit of Western public opinion. The results failed to bolster support for NATO inside the country. Hamid Karzai the puppet President, symbolised his own isolation and instinct for self-preservation by refusing to be guarded by a security detail from his own ethnic Pashtun base. He wanted tough, Terminator look-alike US marines and was granted them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Might Afghanistan been made more secure by a limited Marshall-Plan style intervention? It is, of course, possible that the construction of free schools and hospitals, subsidised homes for the poor and the rebuilding of the social infrastructure that was destroyed after the withdrawal of Soviet troops in 1989 could have stabilised the country. It would also have needed state help to agriculture and cottage industries to reduce the dependence on poppy farming. 90 percent of the world's opium production is based in Afghanistan. UN estimates suggest that heroin accounts for 52 percent of the impoverished country's gross domestic product and the opium sector of agriculture continues to grow apace. All this would have required a strong state and a different world order. Only a slightly crazed utopian could have expected NATO countries, busy privatising and deregulating their own countries, to embark on enlightened social experiments abroad.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And so elite corruption grew like an untreated tumour. Western funds designed to aid some reconstruction were siphoned off to build fancy homes for their native enforcers.. In Year 2 of the Occupation there was a gigantic housing scandal. Cabinet ministers awarded themselves and favoured cronies prime real estate in Kabul where land prices reached a high point after the Occupation since the occupiers and their camp followers had to live in the style to which they had become accustomed. Karzai's colleagues built their large villas, protected by NATO troops and in full view of the poor.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Add to this that Karzai's younger brother, Ahmad Wali Karzai, has become one of the largest drug barons in the country. At a recent meeting with Pakistan's President, when Karzai was bleating on about Pakistan's inability to stop cross-border smuggling, General Musharraf suggested that perhaps Karzai should set an example by bringing his sibling under control.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]While economic conditions failed to improve, NATO military strikes often targeted innocent civilians leading to violent anti-American protests in the Afghan capital last year. What was initially viewed by some locals as a necessary police action against al-Qaeda following the 9/11 attacks is now perceived by a growing majority in the entire region as a fully-fledged imperial occupation. The Taliban is growing and creating new alliances not because its sectarian religious practices have become popular, but because it is the only available umbrella for national liberation. As the British and Russians discovered to their cost in the preceding two centuries, Afghans never liked being occupied.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]There is no way NATO can win this war now. Sending more troops will lead to more deaths. And full-scale battles will destabilise neighbouring Pakistan. Musharraf has already taken the rap for an air raid on a Muslim school in Pakistan. Dozens of children were killed and the Islamists in Pakistan organised mass street protests. Insiders suggest that the 'pre-emptive' raid was, in fact, carried out by US war planes who were supposedly targeting a terrorist base, but the Pakistan government thought it better they took the responsibility to avoid an explosion of anti-American anger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]NATO's failure cannot be blamed on the Pakistani government. If anything, the war in Afghanistan has created a critical situation in two Pakistani provinces. The Pashtun majority in Afghanistan has always had close links to its fellow Pashtuns in Pakistan. The border was an imposition by the British Empire and it has always been porous. Attired in Pashtun clothes I crossed it myself in 1973 without any restrictions. It is virtually impossible to build a Texan fence or an Israeli wall across the mountainous and largely unmarked 2500 kilometre border that separates the two countries. The solution is political, not military.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Washington's strategic aims in Afghanistan appear to be non-existent unless they need the conflict to discipline European allies who betrayed them on Iraq. True, the al-Qaeda leaders are still at large, but their capture will be the result of effective police work, not war and occupation. What will be the result of a NATO withdrawal? Here Iran, Pakistan and the Central Asian states will be vital in guaranteeing a confederal constitution that respects ethnic and religious diversity. The NATO occupation has not made this task easy. Its failure has revived the Taliban and increasingly the Pashtuns are uniting behind it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The lesson here, as in Iraq, is a basic one. It is much better for regime-change to come from below even if this means a long wait as in South Africa, Indonesia or Chile. Occupations disrupt the possibilities of organic change and create a much bigger mess than existed before. Afghanistan is but one example.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Tariq Ali's[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] new book, Pirates of the Caribbean, is published by Verso. He can be reached at: tariq.ali3@btinternet.com[/SIZE]