Nothing has happened to Canada except we are wiser for our past experiences. The war in Europe and the war in Afghanistan are completely different. In Europe we were defending their way of life, in Afghanistan we are trying to change their way of life. I agree the Taliban need to be kicked out and kept out, but without destroying their way of life. We can help them improve their ways but trying to change them is insulting and demeaning.
Our Glorious Afghan Mission
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
Nothing has happened to Canada except we are wiser for our past experiences. The war in Europe and the war in Afghanistan are completely different. In Europe we were defending their way of life, in Afghanistan we are trying to change their way of life. I agree the Taliban need to be kicked out and kept out, but without destroying their way of life. We can help them improve their ways but trying to change them is insulting and demeaning.
Oh right crit13, I forgot, it's now a secular democracy, the people are more about McDonalds "food" and video games than their centuries old ways thanks to our "help"...
If that's all we've got to show (and it isn't even TRUE) then we're wasting time, money and lives. Might have to change the definition of "success" again since that one is worn right out
If that's all we've got to show (and it isn't even TRUE) then we're wasting time, money and lives. Might have to change the definition of "success" again since that one is worn right out
Spain, 800, 18 died in a helicopter crash in 2005, 62 died in a plane crash in Turkey in 2003 en route to Spain, one other soldier was killed;
Ouch! Spanish soldiers are not having much luck with there travel arangements 8O!!!
If this experiment works, which is essentially to pull a nation out of enslaved uneducated poverty. And bring them into the modern world complete with all the trimmings. It will be interesting if this starts a trend in the worlds way of dealing with troublesome third world nations, there are several others such as Somalia that would be strong cases for such intervention.
Ouch! Spanish soldiers are not having much luck with there travel arangements 8O!!!
If this experiment works, which is essentially to pull a nation out of enslaved uneducated poverty. And bring them into the modern world complete with all the trimmings. It will be interesting if this starts a trend in the worlds way of dealing with troublesome third world nations, there are several others such as Somalia that would be strong cases for such intervention.
I believe in the principles of non-violence and non-violent resistance.
But even non-violent people must occasionally resort to violence. For example, a non-violent response is inappropriate if you are being mauled by a polar bear.
So when violence must be used in the context of war, I believe in the concept of a "Just War". Notice the first point:
Can we claim that Canada is fighting a "Just War" in Afghanistan? I think so.
I also agree with the people who believe that NATO should legitimize Afghanistan's opium industry. BY the way, the Taliban are not friends of Afghanistan's opium industry. While they were in power they nearly shut this industry down.
You cannot agree with kicking out the Taliban without a war. The Taliban were not willing to leave peacfully. With the Taliban there, the Afghans have no hope for their future.
Trying to change them for the better is never demeaning. A country which treats it's women as third class citizens should be shown the light.
Do you truly believe that you can change a country in four years? Especially when there is still a war going on? How long did it take North America and Europe to accept blacks? How long have women been allowed to vote? How long have gays been accepted?
Culture shifts take decades to occur. The progress if often painfully slow but "action" needs to be taken in every circumstance.
What the h - e - double hockey sticks is going on.... "karra" one of my fav. members is gone.
Thread searching I a go for an answer...
Thread searching I a go for an answer...
Its a nice blanket statement to blame "the taliban" as if it was some form of hive mind monstrosity from a horror movie.
Who comprised the Taliban? Who allowed it to continue? Who aided and abetted it? Who through apathy and "not my problem" let it continue. Even the most brutal of government only function by the support of its populace, either directly or by refusing to oppose it.
So yes, American's do hold responsibility for going to Iraq. Canadians DO hold responsibility for Afghanistan. We were asked, when we elected our leaders. When not everyone protested when we went in. When parties who still supported being there were elected.
We were asked, we chose to allow it to continue. So I do take responsibility for us being there as I don't actually oppose it. Hell, I support it.
Responsibility for your actions or inaction. Its high time people starting owning up to their own choices.
Ultimately, Canadians are responsible for the actions of their elected governments. That's one difference between a democracy like Canada and a region controlled by fueding warlords like Afghanstan.
No, its not.
Warlords can only rule those who wish to be ruled. You know why the warlords don't obey the central government? For right or wrong, they refuse to be ruled.
You know why the average afghani is ruled by a warlord? Because the average afghani chooses to submit to his rule. Because the average afghani will take a job as a soldier enforcing the rule of this warlord.
A warlord can't just stand in a field and rule people with mind control.
Everyone is responsible for their government. If you allow someone to govern you, you have chosen to allow them to reign. You have chosen to give your acceptance to their behaviour.
Democracies only come into be when the populace wants it. And when a populace truly wants a democracy, nothing stands in its way. Governments are made up of people. These people are citizens like everyone else. No Government can exist without its people supporting it. Working as its soldiers. Working as its Tax Collecters, its Police, its Beaurocrats and its paper pushers.
Warlords can only rule those who wish to be ruled. You know why the warlords don't obey the central government? For right or wrong, they refuse to be ruled.
You know why the average afghani is ruled by a warlord? Because the average afghani chooses to submit to his rule. Because the average afghani will take a job as a soldier enforcing the rule of this warlord.
A warlord can't just stand in a field and rule people with mind control.
Everyone is responsible for their government. If you allow someone to govern you, you have chosen to allow them to reign. You have chosen to give your acceptance to their behaviour.
Democracies only come into be when the populace wants it. And when a populace truly wants a democracy, nothing stands in its way. Governments are made up of people. These people are citizens like everyone else. No Government can exist without its people supporting it. Working as its soldiers. Working as its Tax Collecters, its Police, its Beaurocrats and its paper pushers.
I doubt most Afghanis want to be ruled by warlords. But when a warlord extends their influence to include your village/home, you don't have many choices... stay, leave or fight. Staying means accepting the new order. Leaving means giving up the farm. Fighting means risking your life and that of your family.
Part of the reason why Canadian soldiers are serving in Afghanistan is to help Afghanis fight for responsible government. Unlike other wars, I believe the foreigners in Afghanistan are there for the greater good. The entire world will benefit from a stable, peaceful Afghanistan.
Part of the reason why Canadian soldiers are serving in Afghanistan is to help Afghanis fight for responsible government. Unlike other wars, I believe the foreigners in Afghanistan are there for the greater good. The entire world will benefit from a stable, peaceful Afghanistan.
I don't know why the Western countries think they can fix the world. We go into these countries with a blind belief that we can fix everything. First of all Britain and the US have past history in Afghanistan which does not encourage the Afghans to welcome with open arms. I agree we needed to go in to remove the Taliban militants (guess how they were able to take over the country in the first place).
Installing a stable democratic government is a nice dream but that is all it is unless the people agree. Democracy comes from the heart and cannot be imposed. The Afghans haven't got the faintest idea what it means except what they see, to them it comes from foreigners and invading armies. A repeat of history of thousand of years of invaders, conquerors, dictators causing death, destruction and cruelty.
We need the soldiers to fight the Talban, no one is disputing this necessity. However we must improve the lives of the people by building basic needs. Simple things that we take for granted like hot and cold running water, irrigation for the fields so that they can grow foodstuff other than poppies.
Alot support the Taliban because they know nothing else, it was the best alternative they had. If we want to change that we have to show them there is another way better than the Taliban. We cannot understand why they support the Taliban even with the cruelty, but it was the only security and safety they had available at the time. After the Russians were kick out there was a vacuum left in their place which allowed warlord infighting with caused more death. Many are afraid to support our troops because of reprisals, but also they believe that when we leave they will pay the price AGAIN.
This war is a vicious circle which will continue for a long time unless, we find a way to convince the Afghans that there is a better way of life. We must prove to them that their country can be safe, secure and prosperous without the Taliban, then they will fight alongside our soldiers to get rid of this cancer in their country.
Some say the Afghans got the government they deserved, I do not agree. How could they get anything different when they did not know better! It is easy to judge but to understand we must put ourselves in their shoes.
Installing a stable democratic government is a nice dream but that is all it is unless the people agree. Democracy comes from the heart and cannot be imposed. The Afghans haven't got the faintest idea what it means except what they see, to them it comes from foreigners and invading armies. A repeat of history of thousand of years of invaders, conquerors, dictators causing death, destruction and cruelty.
We need the soldiers to fight the Talban, no one is disputing this necessity. However we must improve the lives of the people by building basic needs. Simple things that we take for granted like hot and cold running water, irrigation for the fields so that they can grow foodstuff other than poppies.
Alot support the Taliban because they know nothing else, it was the best alternative they had. If we want to change that we have to show them there is another way better than the Taliban. We cannot understand why they support the Taliban even with the cruelty, but it was the only security and safety they had available at the time. After the Russians were kick out there was a vacuum left in their place which allowed warlord infighting with caused more death. Many are afraid to support our troops because of reprisals, but also they believe that when we leave they will pay the price AGAIN.
This war is a vicious circle which will continue for a long time unless, we find a way to convince the Afghans that there is a better way of life. We must prove to them that their country can be safe, secure and prosperous without the Taliban, then they will fight alongside our soldiers to get rid of this cancer in their country.
Some say the Afghans got the government they deserved, I do not agree. How could they get anything different when they did not know better! It is easy to judge but to understand we must put ourselves in their shoes.
Here is another article why we are not succeeding in Afghanistan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6081594.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6081594.stm
The Afghans don't want us in thier country. We kill more of them than the Taliban, whom Afghans prefer instead of the US puppet criminal government. Canadians will fight in Afghanistan untill the Americans are impoverished and defeated at home and abroad.
Yes, three choices:
1.) Accept this as a fitting form of government for your children and then their children to live under.
2.) Leave and move somewhere better.
3.) Send your children away and refuse to submit.
If a warlord can gain more soldiers with drug money than anyone who opposes them can get with improving the life and safety of their descendants, then those people CHOOSE to be ruled over.
It may not be a good choice, may not be an easy to swallow one. But you made your choice. Someone needs to fight the good fight, and if it isn't you..who's life is directly at stake..why the hell should anyone else?
Question Period had a bit about Afghans today. Seems there are more stories appearing about the country becoming something better on a consstent basis. The general opinion I hear is that although it's a long way from being a nice place to be, it is improving.
Not everyone is brave, or young and strong. Some people are old and weak and struggling to survive. This is a poor region, filled with poor people, most of whom can barely feed themselves and their families. These people need help. Either we help them out of compassion or the warlords will help them for a price.
