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CDNBear

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This statement alone, says volumes about the fact that the "palestinians", truly seek only peace...

"Ahmad Yousuf said the unity government, which he expected Haniya to unveil within 10 days, would "respect" previous Palestinian peace accords with Israel but would not be committed to them, nor to recognising the Jewish state."

Nothing like taking the wind out of the sails of those that chart the seas of an alternate reality, JTF's!!!

Once again I say...

Please, supporters of the extermination of Israel, by the Arab nazi party, do not let reality ruin your day!!!
 
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lieexpsr

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Feb 9, 2007
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Thanks for posting that gopher, as I myself had just accepted that Ahmadinejad had said words similar to that he is credited with. That just goes to show that even those of us who try to keep up with the truth are still subject to the Zionist/U.S. propaganda. And the reason for the propaganda is quite clear isn't it. The U.S. is looking for some justifications to go to war with Iran. It's the same pattern being played over again as we saw for the first Gulf War.

It seems to me that all the pro-war people have a problem seeing that there is an elelphant standing in the room with them. Their problem is that they are pro-war and we anti-war people still remember when it was wrong to go to war against another country for premptive reasons alone. Or values are still quite legitimate and right but the pro-war people's support of the aggressor perhaps clouds their thinking somewhat.

CDNBear- Reality is what it is. None of us anti-war people support the extermination of Israel and I can't imagine where you got that idea. Could it be that the Zionist program of continuing to ask for pity by harkening back to WW2 is keeping the idea alive. Perhaps you can explain where you get it if that's not the explanation. Your referring to the Arab 'Nazi' party also leads me to think that is the reason. Are you aware at all that the exact opposite is true? The Zionist regime is in the process of exterminating (your term) the Palestinian people with their expansion of the illegal settlements on land which the U.N. has declared to belong to the Palestinian people? Are you aware that there are many situations where the Palestinian people don't even have access to drinking water in sufficient quantities for their families while on the other side of the apartheid wall there are Israeli swimming pools? I won't go on to tell you of many of the other crimes being committed by the Zionists against the Palestinian people because what I have told you so far should suffice to get the attention of any decent human being. So tell me CDNBear, do you claim what I say is not true or do you admit that it is true. If you admit that it is true then do you think it is wrong? Tell me what you think is right because your position here is indeed baffling to say the least! I would actually like to pursue this topic with you to determine if you have any wind in your sails. But I will reiterate once again for you that I have no wish to see the extermination of Israel. I wish to see precisely what the U.N. demands and as laid out by Jimmy Carter so eloquently in his book, 'Palestine, Peace or Apartheid. Do you think it would pay for you to read it so you could argue on an informed level? Or do you really not care because you are supporting prophecy or some other such notion?
 
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CDNBear

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Your referring to the Arab 'Nazi' party also leads me to think that is the reason. Are you aware at all that the exact opposite is true?
Ummm, I hate to be the barer of bad news, but unfortunetly, you would be incorrect...

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/h...s-hatred-arab-world.html?highlight=nazi+roots

As I have already proven.

The Zionist regime is in the process of exterminating (your term) the Palestinian people with their expansion of the illegal settlements on land which the U.N. has declared to belong to the Palestinian people? Are you aware that there are many situations where the Palestinian people don't even have access to drinking water in sufficient quantities for their families while on the other side of the apartheid wall there are Israeli swimming pools? I won't go on to tell you of many of the other crimes being committed by the Zionists against the Palestinian people because what I have told you so far should suffice to get the attention of any decent human being. So tell me CDNBear, do you claim what I say is not true or do you admit that it is true. If you admit that it is true then do you think it is wrong?
I do not beleive everything the Israelis do is either beneficial or intelligent. Never claimed it either.
Tell me what you think is right because your position here is indeed baffling to say the least!
My position here is, there is aggression and stupidity on both sides. What's so baffling.
I would actually like to pursue this topic with you to determine if you have any wind in your sails.
I don't have any sails, I'm ex Army. But I'll ignore your jibe none the less.

But I will reiterate once again for you that I have no wish to see the extermination of Israel. I wish to see precisely what the U.N. demands and as laid out by Jimmy Carter so eloquently in his book, 'Palestine, Peace or Apartheid.
I will agree, that it would be nice to see the UN demands met, if only to prove that the violence will not end until the Arab nazi's are either exponged themselves or they accomplish what their manifesto's decry.
Do you think it would pay for you to read it so you could argue on an informed level? Or do you really not care because you are supporting prophecy or some other such notion?
Yet another jibe, must I condemn you to the same fate as the rodent. Mere contemp and nothing more. If you're basing your position and you "intellect" on Carters book, this won't take long to exps who is not functioning at an informed level. As I already pointed out in my first response, you are already misinformed on where the nazi party sit in the Arab world. At this point, all I care about is an end to the continued stupidity here and the ME. But hey, lets not get off on the wrong foot.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Are you aware that there are many situations where the Palestinian people don't even have access to drinking water in sufficient quantities for their families while on the other side of the apartheid wall there are Israeli swimming pools?


And why is that, exactly? I heard the same complaints about Gaza before the Israeli's left. Well, has the access to water situation in Gaza improved? How much money did the PA spend on infrastructure, compared to waepons?

Perhaps they should do more of this:



AND LESS of THIS:

 

CDNBear

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Thanx JTF's, that gets forces me to ask lieexpsr...

How is Israel responsible for the lack of action by the "palestinian's" own government?
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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For years we've been wrong.......

We've always been told druggies get "high".... I now have factual observation they just get "low"....

Must be hell walking around under a dark cloud all day....
 

lieexpsr

Electoral Member
Feb 9, 2007
301
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CDNBear- Thanks for the link referring to something which happened over 60 years in the past. Perhaps you don't quite understand that quoting that strengthens my point.

I'm pleased to find that when you are challenged you are capable of understanding that the Israelis do some things which are non-beneficial and unintelligent.

My reference to wind in your sails was only a followup on your own comments. But it's interesting to know that you are ex-army. It gives me a better understanding of your motives.

I'm pleased to hear that you are in favour of the U.N.'s demands being met, because that separates you from the rabid right haters who are under the illlusion that bible prophecy dictates the terms of settlement.

Yes, I am basing my position and understanding in part on Carter's book and you are being asked to rebut any part of it if you care to do so. Have you read it?

If all you care about is an end to the continuing stupidity in the M.E. then we can work together here to that end. If you portray a different agenda then I will be the first to let you know.

I don't think I am at a misunderstanding of Nazism in the M.E. based on a conversation with Hitler over 60 years ago, but if you can see some importance in pursuing that proposal then I will be happy to talk about it. I suggest we talk about more immediate problems. Extremist views can sometimes be nothing more than a response to untenable living conditions. I think we both agree that the situation for the Palestinian people is untenable, considering you have offered nothing to say otherwise.

CDNBear and just the facts- The Palestinian people's lack of action is due to their circumstances which takes away their ability to elevate their conditions to being at least livable. Can either of you offer some evidence that they are not attempting to better their lot? I don't think so and I suggest that you are grasping at straws with that. That is at least 'just the facts' is and CDNBear is no more than hoping to pose an intelligent question of his own by resorting to sitting on the shoulders of the bigger dogs. How about you tackle the above question Bear, and I will know that you are not just a tiny yapper. At which time I will apologize for thinking so.
 

L Gilbert

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CDNBear- Thanks for the link referring to something which happened over 60 years in the past. Perhaps you don't quite understand that quoting that strengthens my point.

I'm pleased to find that when you are challenged you are capable of understanding that the Israelis do some things which are non-beneficial and unintelligent.
Guess you missed the part where he said that Israel is not up for sainthood, which is something I think he said from the beginning.
As far as I am concerned, neither side are particularly pleasant, but I, too, get tired of seeing post after post after post ignoring Arab and Palestinian aggression while condemning Israel. Bear and I agree that it is a TWO way street. The rest of these people don't so we are more or less forced to try and balance the viewpoints here.
So wouldn't you say there have been acts of aggression on both sides?
 

lieexpsr

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Feb 9, 2007
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L gilbert- No doubt that there have been acts of aggression on both sides but the facts on the ground paint an ugly picture of Zionist apartheid against the Palestinian people. I'm for ending it but that is not the agenda of the Zionists. In fact many of the Zionists freely admit that they consider that the Palestinian people have no right to the land which is theirs and they will just ignore the U.N. demands. The U.S. appears to be backing that agenda, especially under Bush2 as the U.S. is not active in stopping the illegal settlements in the least. Is it surprising when we know that Bush is onside with the agenda of the Zionists and in fact probably believes also that it is prophesied in the bible?

Actually I am not too much interested in what the bear believes as I find he is probably more interested in being confrontational as opposed to learning anything about the situation. It's clear to me that he is just parroting what he hears from others because of some anger he seems to have against Arabs (Muslims) whatever.

And I think you are wrong that the others don't recognize that there is blame on both sides. It would be pretty silly to suggest that there wasn't but it's equally silly to ignore the facts because you want to align yourselves with the U.S./Zionist agenda. If you didn't and were impartial then others would have little disagreement with you. Maybe it's you who doesn't correctly recognize the position of the others because you are so biased toward Israel.

Suffice to say that we both appear to want to see the UNSC resolutions carried out and it's hard to argue that the U.S. and the Zionists are the stumbling blocks to that.
 

Just the Facts

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CDNBear and just the facts- The Palestinian people's lack of action is due to their circumstances which takes away their ability to elevate their conditions to being at least livable.

Although I sympathize with the average man in the street who just wants to make a living but has nowhere to go, societally, it's in trying circumstances that people excel at elevating their living conditions. For some reason this does not happen in Palestine. There were tens if not hundreds of millions of refugees at the end of WW2. Only in Palestine do those refugees still live as refugees generations later. The average Palestinian is stifled by his government and by his peers who cannot function in any mode other than "kill the Jews".

Gaza is an epitomal case in point. Under the Israeli's, it was one of, if not THE most productive agricultural zones in the middle east. Look at it now. A wasteland.

I read an article a while ago about a Gaza farmer who couldn't operate because the terorists would come around and destroy his irrigation equipment. I'll post it here when I find it. The Palestinian people are oppressed by the Jihadi's, not by Israel.

Can either of you offer some evidence that they are not attempting to better their lot?

See above. As individuals, of course most Palestinians are attempting to better their lot. As a society, no, it's quite clear that the mission statement of "Palestine" is to be a thorn in Israel's side. Paradoxically, when they succeed at wiping Israel off the map, they will be simultaneously wiping "Palestine" off the map. Palestine is dependent on Israel. Take away Israel, you take away Palestine. Abbas knows this. That's why he declined a state just a week or two ago.

I don't think so and I suggest that you are grasping at straws with that. That is at least 'just the facts' is

You can be excused for not knowing me very well yet. They don't call me "Facts" for nothing. Believe it or not I am quite neutral on the Palestine-Israel issue. I have no vested interested in the situation. I also do not have my head in the sand. I told you before, I await with baited breath your promised facts to prove me wrong on this issue. I will readily change my stance. I just need a reason. I just need a fact.

Anyway, in response to your request for evidence, just some cursary research:
{emphasis added by me}

He was given billions in aid, and squandered what he and his cronies didn't steal. With GDP down nearly 70 percent, Palestinians have seen their collective national net worth reduced by more than two thirds. Virtually nothing remains of a once reasonably vibrant private sector. Corruption exists on a scale that even the normally approving Europeans cannot abide. Public infrastructure has disintegrated. Public health standards, in 1993 the highest in the Arab world, are among the lowest. And the disastrously self-destructive terrorist war against Israel that Arafat started in September 2000, has reduced Palestinians to the most desperate conditions they have seen since the creation of Israel in 1948.
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php
But there is one thing for certain: Both Abbas and Hamas are coming into money and more money means more guns.
Bank on it.
http://micahhalpern.com/archives/2007/01/pa_budget_swell.html

The head of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, has approved a new law, providing monetary grants to the families of suicide bombers.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=94583

cargo vessel destined for Gaza City and packed with 50 tons of weapons supplied by Iran
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/773kvxmi.asp

However, the media also give very little idea of the extent to which the Palestinian Authority continues to glorify terrorists. A typical instance is the elevation of Al-Moayed Bihokmillah Al-Agha, who murdered five Israelis in a suicide bombing in December 2004. When the Rafah crossing, the scene of his terror attack, was re-opened at the start of this month, the Palestinian Authority renamed it “in honor of Shahid (martyr) Al-Agha.” Then there is the soccer tournament named in honor of the terrorist who murdered 30 people at a Passover celebration in Netanya, or the girls’ high school named by the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Education after a female terrorist who murdered 36 Israeli civilians and an American nature photographer.
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/MahmoudAbbas.html

Jawad Ghussein, who was the secretary-general of the Palestinian National Fund until 1996, told the Haaretz newspaper that Arafat, "took aid money and contributions that were earmarked for the Palestinian people, to his own account." Ghussein was in a position to know: for twelve years, he had deposited $7.5 to $8 million each month into Arafat's personal bank account.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13325


The AP reported that, “The panel's six-week inquiry found wide-ranging abuses, including the diversion of contributions from international donors, and said much of the Palestinian autonomy government's $800 million annual budget had been mismanaged. It called on Arafat to “dissolve the entire Cabinet.”
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/corruption.html

US foreign aid to the PLO was appropriated in return for commitments made and systematically violated by the PLO, following the accords of Oslo, Cairo, Hebron, Wye and Sharm el-Sheikh. The PLO has tolerated expansion of Hamas infrastructure, has exacerbated anti-Israel incitement (Mein Kampf is a best seller!), has proliferated illegal firearms, has increased its security forces to 50,000 (beyond the specified 20,000!) etc.
According to Newsweek (Nov. 15, 1999), Arafat supplied the weapons to the Syrian-supported terrorists who murdered 241 US Marines in 1983 in Beirut. Arafat ordered the March 2, 1973, execution of Ambassador Cleo Noel and Charge' d'Affairs Curtis Moore of the US Embassy in Sudan.
http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk86.html

The dream has now turned to a nightmare following the disclosure that one of the largest and most respected Palestinian NGOs, LAW, may have misspent as much as $4 million - about 40% of its aid from Western sources.
http://www.advocacynet.org/pr_view/pr_4.html

In reality, 60 Minutes’s “discovery”, though very important for Western audiences to see was not actually news to the Palestinian people; they have been living with the visible manifestations of Arafat’s double standards of living for a very long time. They have seen the extravagant houses their “elected officials” own and the fancy cars they drive. During the “euphoric age of Oslo”, when Arafat’s wife, Suha, graced the Palestinian people with her presence, she would often drive her newly purchased BMW through the streets of Gaza while most of Gaza’s residents could barely feed their families. With the collapse of Oslo, Suha relocated to Paris where she regularly shops at designers’ stores as she subsists on a generous stipend of $100,000 a month that comes directly from Palestinian Authority funds.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=10834
 

L Gilbert

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L gilbert- No doubt that there have been acts of aggression on both sides but the facts on the ground paint an ugly picture of Zionist apartheid against the Palestinian people. I'm for ending it but that is not the agenda of the Zionists. In fact many of the Zionists freely admit that they consider that the Palestinian people have no right to the land which is theirs and they will just ignore the U.N. demands. The U.S. appears to be backing that agenda, especially under Bush2 as the U.S. is not active in stopping the illegal settlements in the least. Is it surprising when we know that Bush is onside with the agenda of the Zionists and in fact probably believes also that it is prophesied in the bible?
I don't care who started what and for what reason. But just because one side did start something doesn't mean that two wrongs will make a right. If I were Israeli, I wouldn't live there long because I like peaceful neighborhoods with peaceful neighbors. Even if my neighbors were peaceful with me being an Israeli they would still be squabbling amongst themselves. Too noisy for me. Bad enough having JR Ewing Bush next door here. I can tell you from experience I prefer the Israeli way of life over the rest of them over there. Arabs, Palestines, Iraqi, etc. are oppressive and aggressive people. I got the lowdown from Lebanese and Armenian people.

And I think you are wrong that the others don't recognize that there is blame on both sides. It would be pretty silly to suggest that there wasn't but it's equally silly to ignore the facts because you want to align yourselves with the U.S./Zionist agenda. If you didn't and were impartial then others would have little disagreement with you. Maybe it's you who doesn't correctly recognize the position of the others because you are so biased toward Israel.
Maybe it isn't me.

Suffice to say that we both appear to want to see the UNSC resolutions carried out and it's hard to argue that the U.S. and the Zionists are the stumbling blocks to that.
Anyway, if I were Israel I would make accomodations for Palestines, Arabs, Lebanese, Persians, etc. and treat them as equal as long as there no aggressions towards me. If I were the other side, I would quit provoking Israel. But that's just me.
 

Curiosity

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Ideology of Hate is also being discussed at another forum.. here is one interesting post but they are all interesting

Palestinian people do not exist
Posted: July 11, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
A provocative headline? It's more than that. It's the truth.
Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.
And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.
You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."
The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir's "racism." They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.
What they don't like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.
So, despite the fact that conventional wisdom has now proclaimed that there is such a thing as the Palestinian people, I'm going to raise those uncomfortable quotations made by Arafat and his henchmen when their public-relations guard was down.
Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
That's pretty clear, isn't it? It's even more specific than Golda Meir's statement. It reaffirms what I have written on this subject. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993. It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.
In fact, on the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what he said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."
No matter how many people convince themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves.
I've said it before and I will say it again, in the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Why now has it become such a critical priority?
The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.
Golda Meir was right. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.
Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It's not too late to say no to terrorism. It's not too late to say no to another Arab terror state. It's not too late to tell the truth about Palestine.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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A "Just the Facts" quote

"You can be excused for not knowing me very well yet. They don't call me "Facts" for nothing. Believe it or not I am quite neutral on the Palestine-Israel issue. I have no vested interested in the situation. I also do not have my head in the sand. I told you before, I await with baited breath your promised facts to prove me wrong on this issue. I will readily change my stance. I just need a reason. I just need a fact."

Since you've done a splendid job at slagging the Palestinians you will no doubt want to display your famous neutrality and slag the Israelis in the same manner.Nothing you provided was incorrect as you point out but that is only one side. You may proceed to prove that you are what you say," neutral".

The fact=== one sided presentation The fact====hardly neutral

I'm not holding my breath waiting for you to do as good a job at character assasination on Israelis as you performed on Palistinians.

Conclusion====you ain't neutral on the Palistine- Israel issue.:laughing7::laughing7::wave:
 
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darkbeaver

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lol
Just because one is neutral doesn't make one blind to the facts.
There's already a plethora of info detailing Israeli fups here and an unbalanced representation of fact.

Because one isn't blind to the facts one who professes neutrality should present both sides of a bipolar issue. Anyone of us could scour the net for articles and support almost any position one wants to make. That does not ensure neutrality. He should be called " Just some Facts but not all the Facts".:wave:
 

L Gilbert

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Because one isn't blind to the facts one who professes neutrality should present both sides of a bipolar issue. Anyone of us could scour the net for articles and support almost any position one wants to make. That does not ensure neutrality. He should be called " Just some Facts but not all the Facts".:wave:
I see. So you want to present all the facts against Israel. And you want others to present a couple against your heroes but also all the facts against the Israelis regardless of how many times either have been posted already. I see. Sounds pretty unbalanced to me.
Like you guys have been presenting a balanced case. roflmao Perhaps you should rename yourself "Ignore the Facts Against My Side". aaaaaaaaahahahhahahahaahhh
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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I see. So you want to present all the facts against Israel. And you want others to present a couple against your heroes but also all the facts against the Israelis regardless of how many times either have been posted already. I see. Sounds pretty unbalanced to me.
Like you guys have been presenting a balanced case. roflmao Perhaps you should rename yourself "Ignore the Facts Against My Side". aaaaaaaaahahahhahahahaahhh

No not at all, how about ten for and ten against winner take all mudwrestling battlefest.And what do you mean us guys I believe I saw your name in there a few times. My staff and I will take your suggested name change under consideration, I like it myself but it's not up to just me.:laughing7::laughing7::wave:
 

L Gilbert

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No not at all, how about ten for and ten against winner take all mudwrestling battlefest.And what do you mean us guys I believe I saw your name in there a few times. My staff and I will take your suggested name change under consideration, I like it myself but it's not up to just me.:laughing7::laughing7::wave:
You saw my name in there a few times? What was I saying? Did I say that Israel deserves sainthood? Did I say that Palestine deserves sainthood?. Nope. I simply observed that there were quite a few villifying Israel whilst forgetting that Palestine has its own glitches. That looked decidedly onepsided to me. I fed in some info. Sorry if I dented the Palestines perfect image for you.