Call for a Peaceful End to Zionism

[gopher]

That's up to the people themselves - at least it will not involve any foreign people and the citizens can solve their own problems without international intervention.

In a generation Muslims because of their higher birth rate will be the majority. We'll see then what the outcome will be.

Hopefully, it will mean peace.

 

[gc]

That's up to the people themselves - at least it will not involve any foreign people and the citizens can solve their own problems without international intervention.

In a generation Muslims because of their higher birth rate will be the majority. We'll see then what the outcome will be.

Hopefully, it will mean peace.

Is international intervention always a bad thing?

What about Rwanda? Should we have let them kill eachother without international intervention (as we did do)?

 

[L Gilbert]

That's up to the people themselves - at least it will not involve any foreign people and the citizens can solve their own problems without international intervention.

In a generation Muslims because of their higher birth rate will be the majority. We'll see then what the outcome will be.

Hopefully, it will mean peace.

lol even the different Muslim factions can't get along. I don't think there ever will be peace in the ME in decades until the religious crap is settled. Again, I think the best thing to do is let them do there own thing and the rest of the planet stay the hell out of their biz.
Genocide is a different kettle of fish and the int'l community should step in. But, obviously, Christians cannot step into and settle Muslim and Judaic problems. It took 8 crusades and 9 million lives to try that before and not much was settled. One has to remember that an awul lot of what's going on there now is because of past attempted intervention from non-Muslims ( IE the Hezbollah, for instance, whose birth was in 1982 and whose job was
1. Elimination of western influence in Lebanon,
2.Change from Lebanon's multidenominational state into an Islamic state,
3.Complete eradication of Israel).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

 

[earth_as_one]

Zionism, not religion is the root cause of war in Palestine.

The Conflict in Palestine: Illusions of Peace and the Need for Effective Resistance
by Nizar Sakhnini, 20 July 2004

Peaceful co-existence is possible among Muslims, Christians and Jews. Such an existence was a reality before Zionism was introduced. Palestine, in particular, and its surrounding Middle Eastern Arab countries, in general, was always the home for an inclusive and tolerant multi-ethnic and multi-cultural community. Such a peaceful co-existence, however, is impossible with a colonial settlement embedded with racist ideological foundations. Accordingly, all peace efforts and initiatives to resolve the conflict have failed for a simple reason: Zionism is in denial of Palestinian reality and rights. Exclusivity of the Jewish State is irreconcilable with a peaceful co-existence with the native people of Palestine. The illusive "peace process" was used to buy time during which more lands were stolen, more settlements were built on these stolen lands, and more war crimes were committed to push the Palestinians into despair and surrender to the Zionist diktat. Until Israeli Jews decide to come to terms with the Palestinian reality and admit the crime committed against the Palestinian people and correct the wrong done, Palestinians are left with no other alternative but to continue with their resistance to the racist colonial project...

http://www.al-awda.org/zionists02.html

I can point to my own neighborhood as an example of where people of different religions live together peacfully. Muslims, Christians and Jews live together peacefully here in Canada because we have freedom of religion. The problem with the Zionist state of Israel is that followers of one religion have more rights, while everyone else has less rights or no rights. That system leads to injustice and oppression. Injustice and oppression leads to violence.

Violence to impose injustice and oppression.

Violence to resist injustice and oppression.

The only path to peace in Palestine is to replace oppression and injustice with freedom and justice. That means ending Zionism.

 

[earth_as_one]

...Hezbollah...whose job was
1. Elimination of western influence in Lebanon,
2.Change from Lebanon's multidenominational state into an Islamic state,
3.Complete eradication of Israel).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

Your link does not support your statement. According to your link:

Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon...

...Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation...

Cause: Israel's invasion/occupation of Lebanon
Effect: Birth of a resistance movement to oppose Israel's invasion/occupation.

In a way Israel created Hezbollah.

Hezbollah calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. That's not the same as Nazi calls to exterminate Jews. They want to replace a Jewish state with a Muslim state and deport non-Palestinian Jews (All Jews which immigrated to Israel). That path is as unlikely to lead to peace as the current one.

Only a minority of Muslims favor replacing one system of injustice and oppression with another. The majority of Muslims would be satisfied if Muslims have the same rights as Jews to live in Palestine.

Turning all of Palestine into a single secular state and allowing all refugees to return home and all immigrants to stay would be a reasonable and just compromise.

 

[Zzarchov]

They were born there, they are citizens of no other country and have a right to the land of their birth and no right to the land of their ancestors.

Except that as has bene discussed previously, Ashkenazim Jews are NOT descended of Abraham and have no ancestral claim to the Promised Land. By contrast, those who say Jesus is Messiah (as do all Muslims) have a right to that Land as per the book of Galatians.

Therefore, as Israel is a member of the UN I repeat what I said previously -- the only solution is a one state solution.

Ya, read my post again and think about that.

Were the Jews in Israel themselves born in Israel as sure as I was born in Canada? Check
Did either of our ancestors come from the land we live in now (Canada/Israel)? Nope
Are either of us Citizens of any other country or do we have a special right to be taken into some country from which we have never been to in our lives? Nope

So it is still unbreachable logic. As Canadians we have no other moral choice but to either support Israel or flee as mass refugees to other countries who won't take us (unless you think Germany is gonna let in a million or so english speaking canadians who's ancestors were german 8 generations back, let alone the rest of Europe, China, Africa and India.)

 

[BitWhys]

Meshal

The problem is not that there is an entity called Israel, the problem is that the Palestinian state is non-existent. There is a reality that Israel exists on Palestinian territory. The problem is that the Palestinian state does not exist. My concern as a Palestinian is to found this state. International relations are not based just on recognition.

Olmert

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Thursday shrugged off comments by Hamas' Damascus-based political chief Khaled Meshal, in which he acknowledged the existence of Israel.

there's nothing that convinces me I should be giving my unqualified support to either of them. real life is like that.

 

[earth_as_one]

Jewish refugees which fled Europe for Palestine are immigrants.

People born in Palestine/Israel are not immigrants, even if their are born from immigrants.

People born in Palestinian refugee camps have the same right of return as their parents.

This article pretty much sums up their case:

The Palestinians’ Right of Return
By Hussein Ibish and Ali Abunimah

Human Rights Brief
Winter, 2001
​

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/return/2001/0808hrb.htm

 

[hermanntrude]

That's quite different. More profound than I'm used to here.

...

We have a duty to lookout for the welfare of others.

basically the way i see it is that politicians hold, and mostly waste(often through no fault of their own), all the power available to help these sorts of situations. We, the underlings, have no way of helping except possibly by volunteering to go to the front line and hand out bags of rice for people to fight over and build hospitals for the americans to demolish.

There's nothing I can do but hope for a peaceful outcome eventually, and maybe support any powerful person who appears to have come up with a solution by giving them my vote...

 

[gc]

Ya, read my post again and think about that.

Were the Jews in Israel themselves born in Israel as sure as I was born in Canada? Check
Did either of our ancestors come from the land we live in now (Canada/Israel)? Nope
Are either of us Citizens of any other country or do we have a special right to be taken into some country from which we have never been to in our lives? Nope

So it is still unbreachable logic. As Canadians we have no other moral choice but to either support Israel or flee as mass refugees to other countries who won't take us (unless you think Germany is gonna let in a million or so english speaking canadians who's ancestors were german 8 generations back, let alone the rest of Europe, China, Africa and India.)

Good point. Anyone in North America (other than Natives) who doesn't support Jews living in Palestine (either one state or two) is a hypocrite, considering that what the Jews did to Arabs is very similar to what many of us immigrants did to the Natives. Thus, the only question is will that be one state or two?

 

[hermanntrude]

how about an englishman in canada? who should i support gc? and why? and what would it do?

 

[Zzarchov]

Well... are you a hypocrite? If no, Israel.

 

[hermanntrude]

why should i support either? why can't i think to myself "oh dear this is a fine mess... maybe i should remain nuetral on the issues and hope for a peaceful outcome"?

Hypocriticism (right word?) is human nature anyway. If you're honest with yourself you'll know you do it sometimes

 

[Logic 7]

Good point. Anyone in North America (other than Natives) who doesn't support Jews living in Palestine (either one state or two) is a hypocrite, considering that what the Jews did to Arabs is very similar to what many of us immigrants did to the Natives. Thus, the only question is will that be one state or two?

Very true. 2 state is the solution, however i doubt it will happen.

I support the palestinians, since they are the ones who are oppressed, human right violated on a daily basis, enough to take their side.

 

[Logic 7]

Well... are you a hypocrite? If no, Israel.

You should say, if you are a top notch hypocryte, you should support israel.

 

[L Gilbert]

why should i support either? why can't i think to myself "oh dear this is a fine mess... maybe i should remain nuetral on the issues and hope for a peaceful outcome"?

Hypocriticism (right word?) is human nature anyway. If you're honest with yourself you'll know you do it sometimes

Um, hypocrisy is the word.
Yeah, inserting someone's nose into others' biz could be hazardous to the nose, as Junior is discovering these days.

 

[gopher]

Again, I think the best thing to do is let them do there own thing and the rest of the planet stay the hell out of their biz.

Precisely.

 

[Zzarchov]

You should say, if you are a top notch hypocryte, you should support israel.

I would love you to support this?


How can a Canadian, be a hypocrite for supporting Israelis right to live on the land of their birth, even if their ancestors acquired the land immorally.

Thats exactly what Canada is.

You know, that country your in without Asking the permission of the Natives here? Kinda like how you complain about Jewish people who Immigrated to Israel without asking the permission of Palestinians who's ancestors rightfully owned (past tense) the land.

If you truly believed Israel was in the wrong logic7, you would be staying in Canada.

Because you are in Canada, your either a Hypocrite or you really are against Israeli simply because you are an anti-semite.

 

[earth_as_one]

Very true. 2 state is the solution, however i doubt it will happen.

I support the palestinians, since they are the ones who are oppressed, human right violated on a daily basis, enough to take their side.

Palestinians are oppressed. But what indication have their leaders given that they would not oppress Jews and commit injustices against them if they controlled the Holylands?

The problem with most Palestinian organizations is that many of their leaders want to share the Holyland with Jews about as much as Jews want to share the Holyland with non-Jews. Neither viewpoint leads to peace.

Most people living in the Holylands just want peace. Everyone looses during war. The Holylands should be a tourist hostspot. The beaches are gorgeous except for the shelling. The ancient ruins could be restored, if people didn't keep ruining them. Peace is the path to prosperity for everyone.

If I was choosing sides, it would be all the people who want to live in peace. I find the very idea of war repulsive, but in the Holylands on the very places where some of mankind's wisest prophets preached peace and goodwill... war is even more repulsive.

If I was to say which side I am against it would be the side of those who are willing to use violence to seize this area for themselves or their "kind".

I doubt any religion's prophets would approve what's been going on.

Zionism is about one group of people taking uncompromising control of the Holylands.

 

[L Gilbert]

Zionism is about one group of people taking uncompromising control of the Holylands.

Ah. So the USA, wanting control of the planet, is a Zionist. Liberals and Conservatives are Zionists because they want control of Canada. I must be a Zionist; I have control of this 50 acres. Cool.
Um, yeah, war is repugnant. Stupid, too.