Call for a Peaceful End to Zionism

[CDNBear]

Yes I am familar with the history of this area.

Yes I have followed your links to pro-Israeli propaganda websites and I read them. Their tortured logic is amusing.

Do you follow my links?

If you did, then you would know that in 1945, most people living in what is now Israel and the occupied territories were Muslim Arabs:

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html#graph3

I'd like know how you got the idea that most of the people living in the British Mandate of Palestine were Jewish. Non-Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine outnumbered Jews in total population and in every district. Non-Jews owned more land in total and owned more farmland than Jews.

Jews didn't outnumber non-Jews until Jewish terrorist organizations ethnically cleansed 800,000 non-Jews out of Palestine. That was between 1947-1948. It was only after the Jewish terrorists beat, raped, tortured, murdered the native population, that these people fled to neighboring countries. That's when Jews in Israel finally outnumbered non-Jews.

I am aware that most Jews who fled to Palestine from Europe during the 1930's and 40's did not harm Palestinians, but they did benefit from crimes committed by a minority of fellow Jews. Most Palestinians did not participate in the 1948 war, but they suffered the consequences.

Now that I posted my references. Please post yours. Find an objective website which shows how Jews were a majority in Palestine when they were awarded a majority of the land. Otherwise, admit that you were mistaken.

Totured logic???

Find an objective web site???

Like the shyte you post comes from the holiest of places. Give me a break. Now you're just insulting our intellegence.

What logic can we get from your ahistorical graph that depicts only Jews and everyone else as Arabs???

Were there no Christians???

Were there no Druze???

Please, before you go knocking my link to the history posted in this forums history section, try being a tad more factual with the shyte you wish to foist upon us as historical proof.

I did not say that there were more Jews then Arabs in the region, if I insinuated as such, I retract it. I ment to assert that there was a sizable Jewish community at work in the area, developing it. They were getting along just fine until the Arabs felt that it was not in their best interests to continue to allow the Jews to occupy said area and began to harass them into leaving what they had created.

Besides, there is little fully substantiated documents that have accurately recorded the demographics of the area prior to British mandate and you should know that. Seeing the British allowed the harassment of the Jews to continue unabated, because of their oil concerns, an exodus could have occured and any ensuing census would be as flawed as you graphs and pie charts.

The division in your graphs and much of your "pro Muslim" propoganda pieces, would have us believe...

There are Jews and then there are Arabs. which is blatantly false and misleading and if you are as intelleigent as you would have us believe, then you should know this. Therefore, you are lying to us, or you are insulting our intellegence.

 

[earth_as_one]

Here's the problem earth...

"In 1948 the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 194 on the Question of Palestine, which resolves that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return..."

Tooooo many do not wish to live like that. They want it all and are controlling the others, which was discussed in another thread here, not to long ago.

How many people have been allowed to return? Not a single one. Are you telling me that out of 4 million Palestinians, not a single one is capable of living peacefully with their neighbors??? How about frail 80 year old widows. Do you think they are capable of living in Israel peacefully. I suppose some of them might hit someone with their cane, but I'm sure a few of them could behave.

Even Hamas has said it was willing to live in peace with Israel if Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.

Hamas PM Haniyeh: Withdrawal to 1967 borders will bring peace

By Danny Rubinstein, Haaretz Correspondent

05/23/06 "Haaretz" -- -- Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh told Haaretz Monday that the Hamas government is prepared to agree to an extended cease-fire if Israel withdraws to the 1967 lines.

"If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a cease-fire [hudna] for many years," Haniyeh said during an interview in his south Gaza office. "Our government is prepared to maintain a long-term cease-fire with Israel."

Palestinian Transportation Minister Ziad Zaza described the hudna during the interview as "the cease-fire that will be renewed automatically each time."...http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13164.htm

That's from a Jewish news source. Israel's response:

Massacre on a Beach in Gaza

By Mike Whitney

06/15/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- Israel doesn’t bother with low-intensity warfare anymore. It goes straight for the jugular. Day after day Israel has launched unprovoked attacks on Palestinian civilians only pausing long enough to assemble the requisite lies to fend off the media.

It’s quite extraordinary. One day they blow up a family peacefully touring in their new car; killing 3 generations with one mighty blast, and then a few days later they fire a mortar round at a beach in Gaza wiping out 7 members of another family. The entire incident in Gaza was captured on video providing a heart-wrenching visual-account of a traumatized 12 year old girl running around while the limp and bloodied bodies of her parents are carted off to the morgue....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13633.htm

Notice the date of the interview and the date of the slaughter. Hamas proposes peace, Israel slaughters Palestinian civilians in response.

That resolution also says Israel must fairly compensate Palestinians who are incapable of living with Israelis peacefully. How many Palestinians have been compensated? Not a single one. As in zero.

Its been almost 60 years. Israel has still not fulfilled the conditions for its acceptance into the UN. The UN would be completely justified in revoking its decision to recognize Israel. Israel's obligations to Palestinian refugees are like a contract.

If you buy a home on condition that eventually you will pay for the home and 60 years later you still haven't paid a cent, is the bank justified seizing your home for failing to meet your contractual obligations?

 

[earth_as_one]

Follow that wikipedia link bear, its all there. I never knew wikipedia was a pro Muslim propaganda source. But you can check their sources.

Here is another source:

In 1945 a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestine-mandate-1

Says the same thing. Must be some kind of an anti-Jewish conspiracy.

Even the Jews seem to be in on the anti-Jewish conspiracy. Here's a link to a Jewish website which has the exact same numbers.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

 

[earth_as_one]

Bear, according to this pro-muslim wikipedia webpage, Palestinians can trace their ancestry back to before Jews fled Egypt or even before Judaism existed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian#The_ancestry_of_the_Palestinians

 

[gopher]

```Palestinians can trace their ancestry back to before Jews fled Egypt ...```


Palestinians are children of Abraham and, as Muslims who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, are heirs to the Promise.

Ashkenazim Jews are Gentiles and are not related to Abraham as I have previously shown from Koestler .

As for Zionism, it has no biblical basis and was started by socialist Theodore Herzl:

http://www.azm.org/herzl1.shtml

HERZL: UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL
In pursuit of the Zionist Vision

Biography
​

Theodor Ze'ev Binyamin Herzl (1860-1904)
"...Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who will it shall achieve their State. We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and in our own homes peacefully die. The world will be liberated by our freedom, enriched by our wealth, magnified by our greatness. And whatever we attempt there for our own benefit will redound mightily and beneficially to the good of all mankind."
-Herzl, "The Jewish State" (1896)
His life lasted a scant 44 years, and he dedicated only the last nine of them to the Zionist cause. But in this brief and extraordinary span of less than a decade he was able to mobilize the forces and craft the infrastructure that would revolutionize the Jewish world and bring about the realization of the Jewish people's age-old dream of returning to Zion.
Herzl was born on May 2, 1860 in Budapest, Hungary, where he was educated in the secular spirit of the German-Jewish Enlightenment. His views about the plight of the Jewish people changed forever when, as Paris correspondent for the influential liberal Viennese newspaper Neue Freie Presse, he observed the trial and conviction of Captain Alfred Dreyfus. Due to anti-Semitic prejudice, this Jewish officer in the French army was unjustly accused of treason and divested of his rank in a humiliating public ceremony. Hearing the mob's shouts of "Death to the Jews," Herzl became convinced that assimilation was not the answer to dispelling anti-Semitism. Rather, the only solution to the problems of the Jewish people was to create a Jewish homeland.
In 1896, Herzl published "Der Judenstaat" (The Jewish State), in which he argued that the Jewish question was not to be dealt with on a personal level but rather in the arena of international politics. In his Zionist novel "Altneuland" (Old New Land, 1902), Herzl envisioned a socialist Jewish utopian society constructed according to modern science and technology which would be "a light unto the nations" (Isaiah 42:6). Herzl proposed the establishment of a company owned by stockholders in order to collect funds from Jews around the world for this purpose.
Despite ridicule from Jewish leaders, who regarded this plan as too extreme, Herzl's ideas were greeted with enthusiasm by Jewish masses in Eastern Europe. Herzl convened the first Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland on August 29-31, 1897. The congress established the World Zionist Organization, electing Herzl as its first president.
Herzl was well aware of the profundity and immensity of the mission he so passionately embarked upon. Immediately following the first Zionist Congress, he wrote in his diary:
"In Basle I founded the Jewish state. If I were to say this out loud today, people would laugh. But perhaps in another five years, certainly in another 50, everyone will recognize it."
In the last eight years of Herzl's life, he labored tirelessly for the sake of his dream of a Jewish state behalf of Zionism, meeting with world leaders to try to gather financial and political support. Herzl died on July 3, 1904.
Half a century later, true to his prophecy, the State of Israel indeed came into being.
In 1949, following the establishment of the State of Israel, Herzl's remains were transferred to a mountain in western Jerusalem now known as Mount Herzl, today a major military cemetery.


socialist utopianism

Previously certain writers on this forum have said that only a leftist would condemn Zionism . In fact, contrary to this myth supporting Zionism is supporting socialism - any REAL conservative will therefore condemn Zionism.

 

[L Gilbert]

Whatever, if everyone minded their own bloody business, anyone could live anywhere. That includes Israeli and Palestines, Bush and Khomeini.

 

[earth_as_one]

Herzl's utopian vision of Zion does not resemble modern Israel.

...Herzl envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage. Thus a Palace of Peace would be built in Jerusalem, arbitrating international disputes - but at the same time the Temple would be rebuilt, but on modern principles. He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there is much respect for religion in the public sphere. Many languages are spoken - Hebrew is not the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.

Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. The one Arab character in Altneuland, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the "New Society", is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

Herzl's dream of a place where Jews and Arabs live together in peace and international disputes are arbitrated has become a nightmare of ethnic cleansing, war, injustice and oppression.

 

[L Gilbert]

Wonder why.
.
.
.
.
(Not really)

 

[gopher]

```Wonder why.```

It's what happens when commies like zionists try to take over the world.

David Ben-Gurion was a socialist:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/State/David+Ben-Gurion.htm

 

[L Gilbert]

Apparently, you missed the last part of my post. I said, "Not really". '
Anyway, apparently I'm a zionist. I wanted control of this chunk of the planet and I got it and won't let anyone I don't want on the place.
As I said before, if both sides would stick to their own business and never mind what the other guy is doing, they could live next door to each other without any problem. It is irrelevant "who started it" but both sides should know better by now. They need to grow up instead of bickering back and forth.

 

[CDNBear]

earth...

First off, wikipedia can be editted by the likes of you or even Logic 7 or any other wing nut with an agenda and a membership. So its content is highly suseptable to misrepresntations.

Consider the boundries created in the 67 war, the cost of attacking Israel and the spoils of for her. period. Get over it. That's what happens to you when you start a war, you may lose, you have to live with the consequences.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gopher, Zionism is dead, it was the wrong way to right an even greater wrong.

Palestinian is name given the inhabitants of said region by the romans I believe. I also believe they are not mentioned in either the Bible nor Quran. The name encompassed Jews, Druze, Muslims and a merriade of other religious cultures. So no one group can lay claim to the region. Unless we're talking about the UN mandate that made Israel. They can lay claim to Israel and any land conquered in a war they won, but didn't start. Before you go saying they started it, blockading Israeli ships was an act of war.

 

[Zzarchov]

I am not talking about making Israelis leave. I'm talking about the right of Palestinians and their descendants to return home.

International laws, treaties and conventions are clear regarding the Palestinian refugee issue. Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return. The question is when is the "earliest practical date". They've been waiting for nearly 60 years and the earliest practical date still hasn't arrived.

Read that again, nowhere does it state descendants get to return.

So I stand by my comment. Descendants cannot return to where they have never been, and are not entitled to under any UN resolution.

The 1977 General Assembly resolution , being a general assembly resolution, is non-binding, as General Assembly resolutions are a simple means of showing mass support. That is not any kind of enforcable or binding decision.


can you show me any binding resolution saying their descendants have the right to return?

 

[gopher]

Zionism is Socialism

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Socialist_Zionism.html

Socialist Zionism

Socialist Zionism strove to achieve Jewish national and social redemption by fusing Zionism with Socialism. Its founder was Nachman Syrkin, who promulgated this view shortly before the third Zionist Congress (1899).
Its philosophy was based on the assumption that the problem of Diaspora Jewry would remain unsolved even after the Socialist revolution, and that the solution to the anomaly of Jewish existence was the emigration of Jews to, and their concentration in, a territorial base. Dov Ber Borochov, a prominent advocate of Socialist Zionism, argued that the development of capitalism would inevitably prompt Jews to immigrate to Palestine, and that only there could the economic structure of the Jewish people be reconstituted as a base for the class struggle of the Jewish proletariat. Zionism, he asserted, is a historic-economic necessity for the Jewish people and the historic role of spearheading the Jewish national liberation process is reserved for the Jewish proletariat.
Disagreements about the conceptual and philosophical foundations of Socialist Zionism, the methods to use in achieving it in Palestine and relations with Socialist organizations and parties in other countries, led to the formation of many and sundry Socialist Zionist parties. Some of these entities eschewed Marxist terminology and refrained from explicitly terming themselves Socialist. Others, considering themselves more Socialist and less Zionist, forswore membership in the Zionist Organization at various times.
The Socialist Zionist idea gave rise to many pioneering youth movements, such as Hashomer Hatz'air and Hehalutz. The leaders of Socialist Zionist parties were among the most prominent in the pre-independence Palestine community and the State of Israel; David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and Berl Katznelson are but three examples. Socialist Zionism is the progenitor of most of Israel's settlement movements and the Israel Labor Party, one of Israel's two main political parties.









Trotsky's vision of conquest was called "permanent world revolution".

The Nazi vision was called "leibensraum".

And the Herzl vision is called 'zionism".

All three called for the creation of a ''new man'', had their origin in socialism, and were intended for permanent violence and world conquest. Anybody who calls him/herself a "conservative" has no business supporting any of these radical, revolutionary, and subversive ideologies.

 

[earth_as_one]

UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (1) states that refugees and their descendants have a right to compensation and repatriation to their original homes and land due to “loss of or damage to property, which, under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by the government or authorities responsible”.

But if I understand your logic Z, the longer Israel torments their victims, the less of a crime it becomes.

Israel will never have peace with its neighbors until these people and their descendants have justice. Do you expect these people will just come to accept a life of poverty without hope for a better future?

Its in Israel's longterm interest to come to a fair and just settlement with these people.

 

[Zzarchov]

Funny thing about throwing around bombs. "Violence begets more Violence, it does not beget more money" - They will live in poverty until they choose not to, and probably a few years after for good measure.

Their Descendants are entitled to nothing. They were born poor, lots of people are and it doesn't matter why. Maybe your parents had their land stolen, maybe they were drug addicts, either way is irrelevant to you because you are not responsible for actions before your birth. Live with it.

Those Israelis who did anything wrong are dead, those who suffered directly are also dead. Those alive now need to quit their pity party and work on making life better for their own children, if they don't think thats more important that crying and whining about how unfair it is that they were born poor instead of someone else they should sterilize themselves.

 

[darkbeaver]

How Do I Start A New Thread, I Can't Find The Button.

 

[northstar]

Palestinian is name given the inhabitants of said region by the romans I believe. I also believe they are not mentioned in either the Bible nor Quran. The name encompassed Jews, Druze, Muslims and a merriade of other religious cultures. So no one group can lay claim to the region. Unless we're talking about the UN mandate that made Israel. They can lay claim to Israel and any land conquered in a war they won, but didn't start. Before you go saying they started it, blockading Israeli ships was an act of war

--cdnbear

You got it Bear!!! The Palestines are backed by a known terrorist organization, and basically no one wants them because of the pervailiant attitude of believing that if they squat on other people's property long enough a miracle will happen and it will become theirs. Basically, Palastine is a bunch of nomads, just as saudi arabia was full of nomads, it was a way of life to travel...so the nomads are basically a bunch of gypsy's who have picked a beachfront plot of land to pitch the shanties that make up palestine. The difficulties these Nomad's are experiencing are due to the bad choices they are continuously making.

Rather than seeking peace, they know nothing but war. And why not!!! If anyone is raised in an environment that teaches and promotes murder, rape, torture, stealing, from the get-go that we too would be firmly brainwashed into thinking their is no other way.

That is the basis of my annoyance of this false belief cult following, because it is teachings that offer no alternative to these people, who by right of birth are brainwashed. The false belief system cultivated by the Quran is the basis of all the problems in Palestine. They simply don't realize there is another way. Here they have an opportunity to begin a new world for themselves and be good neighbours to Isreal on a prime piece of Middle-Eastern Real Estate, and what do they do with the opportunity? They turn negative and demanding and want more!!!

They have squandered every opportunity and made a pact with criminals, found in Hezzbollah.

What a shame!!!!

 

[Logic 7]

--cdnbear

You got it Bear!!! The Palestines are backed by a known terrorist organization, and basically no one wants them because of the pervailiant attitude of believing that if they squat on other people's property long enough a miracle will happen and it will become theirs. Basically, Palastine is a bunch of nomads, just as saudi arabia was full of nomads, it was a way of life to travel...so the nomads are basically a bunch of gypsy's who have picked a beachfront plot of land to pitch the shanties that make up palestine. The difficulties these Nomad's are experiencing are due to the bad choices they are continuously making.

Rather than seeking peace, they know nothing but war. And why not!!! If anyone is raised in an environment that teaches and promotes murder, rape, torture, stealing, from the get-go that we too would be firmly brainwashed into thinking their is no other way.

That is the basis of my annoyance of this false belief cult following, because it is teachings that offer no alternative to these people, who by right of birth are brainwashed. The false belief system cultivated by the Quran is the basis of all the problems in Palestine. They simply don't realize there is another way. Here they have an opportunity to begin a new world for themselves and be good neighbours to Isreal on a prime piece of Middle-Eastern Real Estate, and what do they do with the opportunity? They turn negative and demanding and want more!!!

They have squandered every opportunity and made a pact with criminals, found in Hezzbollah.

What a shame!!!!

Hezbollah isnt a terrorist organisation, it is a resistance groups who emerge from israel agressions and occupation,simple as that, period.

Indians were nomad , not the palestinians. Jews around europe started to immigrate to palestine in the 20's, so it is not the palestinians who squats others properties , it is the Jews/zionists who immigrate from europe, get your facts straight.

 

[Zzarchov]

Actually the Jews have been there for thousands of years too, the Ottoman Empire kept them there as a counterbalance to all the rebellous Arabs.

Get your facts straight Logic7.

Unless you are saying being an immigrant is a crime to those other jews who moved there? but seeing as your an Immigrant you'd be a giant hippocrit.

 

[Zzarchov]

Bear, according to this pro-muslim wikipedia webpage, Palestinians can trace their ancestry back to before Jews fled Egypt or even before Judaism existed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian#The_ancestry_of_the_Palestinians

Read that again.

Some Palestinians can Claim to, thats not the same as "all palestinians are", any Palestian there for that long would also be part Egyptian, Part Hittite, Part Persian, and Part European, which the majority are not.