Proof of Christianity

[EastSideScotian]

You should ask yourself that question, why would we after years of False gods focus on one real one for year and years and years more then any false god?

We have the ability to have a relationship with this God through Prayer one that is very real...You may have troubble getting your head around it, having not the same experiances as Me, or other Christains, Muslims and Jews. With the experiances we have spoke in Tounges, Been Slayed int he spirit, and have prayers met and chased out deamons. You may not agree, but you arent open to the spirtual world, which I have felt exsists...

Iam also not some Holyer than now person, Iam your average joe, sick sense of humor, fowl mouth and enjoy a drink now and then. I do however try and have a relationship with God, because I cant deney him I have seen to much in my younger years, and still today in my life. You souldnt not Understand, I supose.

Past God were not real....do you really think zuse and areis and all the greek and roman gods were real? They were statues and carvings...things that could be dystroyed, My God, can not be, my God made me, I did not create him out of wood or gold. Those who seek him will know him.


P.S. You asked how my deity Can be Infinate, Simple He has said so. He has said "Iam Infinate" he has said he is The Alpha and Omega, the begging and the end. If he says he is ill take his word for it.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

You should ask yourself that question, why would we after years of False gods focus on one real one for year and years and years more then any false god?

Tell that to the Eastern religions. Buddhism has been around quite a bit longer than Christianity (some five hundred years before). Or the worlds oldest religion, Hinduism (founded between 5000 - 3500 BCE). If your decision is based on the age of your religion, I for one would be sticking with one of the Dharmic ones.

P.S. You asked how my deity Can be Infinate, Simple He has said so. He has said "Iam Infinate" he has said he is The Alpha and Omega, the begging and the end. If he says he is ill take his word for it.

No, I accept the possibilty (read: not probability) of a deity existing for infinity. I asked, why the universe could not have existed for infinity?

 

[EastSideScotian]

Tell that to the Eastern religions. Buddhism has been around quite a bit longer than Christianity (some five hundred years before). Or the worlds oldest religion, Hinduism (founded between 5000 - 3500 BCE). If your decision is based on the age of your religion, I for one would be sticking with one of the Dharmic ones.


No, I accept the possibilty (read: not probability) of a deity existing for infinity. I asked, why the universe could not have existed for infinity?

Because Budisim is more of a way of life, and they pray to a man which was once alive...no specifc Deit.

Hinduism is also just an old religion of created Deitys, nothing that speaks to anyone. Though I dont knock their teachings because they are quite good, but their Gods do not exsist Iam sorry. also their gods have never had specific books made by prophets.

I already told you....God created the Universe is my awnser....thats why...You of course dont have to go for that...but thats my awnser.

This Disscusion does nothing for ethier one of us but prove that we both play for a differant team.

A scientist, met with God one day, and Proclaimed, Man has become so good at science that we can now create man out of dirt. God said very well let see who can make the best Man. The Scientist, adn God both reach for some dirt to create the man. God looked over at the Scientist and said, hey no cheating, you have to make your own dirt.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

Because Budisim is more of a way of life, and they pray to a man which was once alive...no specifc Deit.

While you are not entirely acurate in your description of Buddhism, you are still going to have to explain how that makes the religion any less relevant.

Hinduism is also just an old religion of created Deitys,

Like Christianity.

nothing that speaks to anyone.

Exept for the billion people that follow it.

Though I dont knock their teachings because they are quite good, but their Gods do not exsist Iam sorry.

They would disagree with you.

also their gods have never had specific books made by prophets.

Except for the Vedas, the Bagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Laws of Manu... (there is definately an etcetera at the end of that list)

I already told you....God created the Universe is my awnser....thats why...You of course dont have to go for that...but thats my awnser.

That isn't an answer. You didn't answer my question. You can't simply say, "God did it," and get away with it. Why can't the universe be infinite? Why does it have to be created by god?

This Disscusion does nothing for ethier one of us but prove that we both play for a differant team.

I don't know about that, I'm enjoying it. Plus, you should see the weather outside. I think its dropped 8 cm of snow in the last three hours. I've nothing but time to burn.

A scientist, met with God one day, and Proclaimed, Man has become so good at science that we can now create man out of dirt. God said very well let see who can make the best Man. The Scientist, adn God both reach for some dirt to create the man. God looked over at the Scientist and said, hey no cheating, you have to make your own dirt.

Clever.

 

[gc]

How old is the universe?

You dont know that do you?

I don't know. Most scientists would estimate the age around 15 billion years, but that's really irrelevant. All I am saying for certain is that it must have a finite age. Likewise, God must have a finite age. By definition, the Universe encompasses everything which would include God. But if you'd rather define the Universe as being separate from God that's ok too (just a different definition I guess) but God would still have to have a finite age.

You donthave to understand it...its all faith, but if you see fault thats fine wiht me...and no your infanate number of years thing doesnt work, we havent been around for infinty, and infinity isnt an actual messurement of time... God has always been...In which God Himself is Infinate.

You can still have faith. I am not disproving the existance of God. I am simply proving that he can not have existed forever. At some point in the past, there was no God. You can still have "faith" that God was somehow created. Personally, I think it's easier for me to believe that humans were somehow created from "nothing" rather than an intelligent being (God) who created everything was somehow created from "nothing".

Time that has always been a unstopable amount...one can only be Infinate.

Time only has meaning if there is a Universe. Before the Universe, there was no such thing as time. Another way to think of this...what are some ways to measure time? How would you measure time if there were no Universe?

In which God is. he has always been....he is infinate there is no messurement of God and no end to him, time is not always there we created time time is not truley infinate because time itself hasnt always been. Time begins and time has a numerical value. Years are time....Years can not be messured in the infainate because you said yourself that it can never be reached there for useing the messuremnt of Years on something that cant be messured is incorrect....your argument makes no sense because you missuse infinty. God would be the Infinate...when you use the word correctly, he always was. Undestand?

No, I don't really understand. Time can not be infinite, that much we agree on. When the Universe (and I'm using my definition which encompasses everything including God) was created, time began. Since time is finite, the amount of time that has passed since the creation of the Universe (and God!) is finite, and therefore not infinite.

Now with that being said, the Univierse is not Infinate ebcause it hasnt always exsited, it had to start somewhere. Whta started it....My awnser is...an Infinate being. Never said you had to agree with me...but your use of the word infinate is incorrect, and can not be applied with messurement because all mesurement ends.

I agree with the first part. The Universe is not infinite because it had to start somewhere. By the same logic, God is not infinite because He had to start somewhere too.

 

[gc]

Why does god have to be infinite? Why can't the universe be infinite?
How do you know the universe hasn't always existed? Why is it that the universe can't be infinite but your deity can be?

The Universe hasn't always existed because of the same argument I gave that God hasn't always existed. Let's say that right now in time is point B. If the Universe has always existed, we can go back infinity years to point A. Now we are at point A and we can say that in infinity years we will reach point B. But of course, if point B is infinity years away, it will never happen. Since we know that point B is happening right now, point A can not be infinity years ago. Thus, the Universe and everything in it, including God, can not have existed forever

 

[gc]

P.S. You asked how my deity Can be Infinate, Simple He has said so. He has said "Iam Infinate" he has said he is The Alpha and Omega, the begging and the end. If he says he is ill take his word for it.

If God has a beginning and an end, as you have mentioned, then he is by definition finite. Something that is infinite can not have a beginning and an end.

 

[Tonington]

I think it more apt to say that the universe as we know it has not always existed. People often throw around the first law of thermodynamics saying that matter cannot be created or destroyed, which isn't exactly true. It has more to do with energy and mass. Mass can be converted to energy, and energy can be converted to mass. This is happening all the time in our sun. I think it more likely that our universe has constantly been undergoing reorganizations in it's matter. The matter gets reorganized into different forms as the universe condenses and expands. In order to measure the age of the universe we need a point of reference, so we will only be able to go back as far as say the birth of the universe in it's current organization.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I have personal proof God exists...

No you don't. What you have is certain events in your life and certain feelings you've had that you interpret as demonstrating god's reality. I'm not doubting the reality of your experiences and feelings, merely suggesting that there are simpler and more probable explanations of them than the ones you've put on them, that don't require such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a supernatural being that has some interest in you.

... but if you don't have a relationship with him you'd never know he was there.. If you never met your best friend you would not know he exists would you?

Alternatively, because this proof you claim to have is personal, which I take to mean it's not evidence you can offer to anyone else and be sure they'll arrive at the same conclusion you did, what reason do you have for thinking it has any reality outside your own head? The sense of your argument escapes me entirely. If I'd never met my best friend, he wouldn't be my best friend, but I might still know he exists. I know there are something over six billion people on the planet I've never met, and will never meet (and thank whatever gods there be for that! I couldn't cope with 6 billion friends), and any one of them might turn out to be my best friend if I did meet him, or her. So what? I too have had experiences and feelings I could have interpreted as the Spirit moving in my life, and they're probably not much different from yours. I'm sure those are common to all humans and most of us put a religious interpretation on them. I have in fact witnessed events that two of my five siblings (who are religiously inclined) have described quite seriously as miraculous. I found there were simpler explanations.

The only thing I can say is that it sounds just as silly to those who don't believe, that there is a God, as it does to say all the universe and living things just happened by aceident.

Well, perhaps the existence of the universe is due to a random quantum event, which I suppose might fairly be called an accident in common parlance (though accidental and random don't really mean the same thing), but living things are not an accident, or random, or anything like that. All it takes for evolution to get started is the existence of a single self-replicating molecule. This is not the place for a long digression about how natural selection works, but you can take it as given that evolution is a fact about as well attested as the fact that the earth orbits the sun.

But as my father used to say, we can argue god in and out of existence all we want, but none of it proves he exists, or doesn't exist. I grew up in a deeply religious household, but an aptitude for science and mathematics led me into modes of thought quite inconsistent with my received religion, as I learned about the nature of logic and evidence. I went through a rather painful apostasy, and I don't think my mother ever got over feeling she'd somehow failed as a mother with me because of it. (She was quite wrong about that, she was a superlative mother in every way that matters to me.) A lifetime in science has taught me that all we can really do is argue probabilities. There is no absolute knowledge beyond the trivial. I cannot absolutely say that god doesn't exist, or that Christianity is not true, nor can anyone else absolutely say that god does exist and Christianity is true. Such claims to absolute knowledge are dangerous follies and lead people into horrible behaviors, like flying airplanes into tall buildings, or the Crusades, or the Inquisition... When people believe they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, they do dreadful things to each other. The Nazis are only the most horrific recent example; history is full of them.

But back to probabilities: the probability that god exists I would put at about 0.00000001% and the probability that Christianity is true I'd put at about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. Very small, you'll notice, but not zero. No doubt there are those in the religious community who'd say god has not yet seen fit to remove the scales from my eyes, or something less charitable; maybe so, but everything I know about science and reason and the way nature works is strongly against the existence of any supernatural beings of any sort, from gods to tooth fairies.

 

[The Project Man]

Great Book

Remember:

'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.'
- Richard Dawkins

just got the book, "The God Delusion". Great read.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

just got the book, "The God Delusion". Great read.

Its on backorder. Hows that for a shot in the eye at people who say that atheists are few and far between?

 

[Farzad]

Proof of Christianity is proof of nothing

There is not even one shred of objective evidence that God exists. You believe in God and religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or whatever your religion is) because you do not have the intellectual/mental capacity to survive psychologically without the idea of God and life after death.

God does not exist period. Proof of Christianity does not prove anything except the fact that you need to follow an ideology blindly for your own psychological survival.

God is dead.

 

[Tonington]

I don't think it's fair to say that folowers of any religion are lacking intellect or mental capacity. Religion is a deeply personal aspect of any person, just as atheism is. Religion is not without it's benefits. I was raised Catholic, but am now an atheist. I'm glad I was brought up to respect all people, regardless of their creed. I will also raise my children so that they may have that choice to make for themselves.

 

[Farzad]

It is not a matter of being fair or unfair. This is the reality of human existence. I did not say that religion has no benefit at all. Nevertheless, religion as done more harm to humanity than anything else. You ended up with atheism because you had the intellectual/mental capacity to become an atheist. Not everyone is like you. As a matter of fact a huge majority of human population believe in God and supernatural (more than 90%).
There is a big difference between respecting people and respecting an ideology. People are people because of their humanity not because of their religion. I respect all humanity for who and what they are; they are all human beings.

 

[Tonington]

It definitely is unfair. You can't make an umbrella statement likeyou did about a large and diverse group of people and then say that you respect humanity. The belief in an afterlife,deity and moral code is part of that humanity. There are people out there with a similar mental faculty that I possess who do believe, the simple fact that they do does not make me smarter, or them dim witted.

It is true that religion has been the vector for many of histories atrocities and that is part of my reason for my own beliefs. Similarily we could say that democracy has also been a method through which harm has been enacted. That doesn't mean it is without value.

If we really want to respect people, that means we will have to respect their ideology. Also we need to realize that we can't paint a group of people based on the actions of few. If you trully want to respect people, try to understand them. I would suggest that this requires more intellect than simply discounting another persons faith.

 

[Farzad]

The belief in an afterlife,deity and moral code is part of that humanity.

This is the most racist comment that I have ever heard. You are differentiating and dividing humanity based on a bunch of memes.

We are all the same regardless of what we believe in. Suicide bombing is not a part of humanity. Jihads and crusades are not parts of humanity. Witch-hunting and Christian inquisition are not parts of humanity.

All human beings are in truth akin.

 

[Sassylassie]

Farzad wrote: This is the most racist comment that I have ever heard. You are differentiating and dividing humanity based on a bunch of memes.

Racist do you even know what that word means?? I don't have to explain myself or my god to you or to anyone else because it's a personal feeling and I assure you it has nothing to do with intelligence but then again I'm not the one pontificating like an angry child.

 

[Tonington]

If that's is the most racist thing you have ever heard I am glad for you, as my comments are not condescending, bigoted or prejudiced.

It is definitely not racist. Every single culture on the face of this planet has creation stories. Atheism as a culture is no different. Granted it transcends other cultures, much the same that there are people born one religion and choose another.

As I said, you can't paint the entire Christian, Islamic, or any other belief system based on the actions of fundamentalists. That is because fundamentalists or rather extremists reside on th eboundries of their own faith. Are all Mormons polygamists? Certainly not, that is a marginal sect which does not represent the mainstream view of Mormons.

Humanity has many facets, one of them is that we can be very cruel for reasons which seem trivial to others. Another is the freedom to believe what you want. You can believe me a racist, and you can believe Cristians or any other theist are dim witted. That's entirely up to you, though if you were to check around you would find me at the other end of the spectrum, and in fact there are many religious intellectuals.

As an atheist I try to promote understanding and good will. I don't force my views on others and I expect the same in return. I would rather talk to an understanding Christian than a close minded atheist any day.

 

[Sassylassie]

Bang on Tonington. Now Christianity is a race, wow what color am I going to be?

 

[Farzad]

Back to the topic:
You said, “The belief in an after life, deity and moral code is part of that humanity.”

Well, belief in Allah and killing infidels in order to go to Heaven is indeed a belief in an after life, God, and Muslim moral code. And according to you, this is a part of humanity and we have to respect those who commit such atrocities. Am I right?

God does not exist and those who believe in His. Her, or Its existence are deluded. That’s all I am saying.

Racism is when a white Yugoslavian Christian (Serb) sends a white Yugoslavian Muslim (Bosnian) to a concentration camp to be executed. That is called racism.





Sassylassie, According to Tonington, your coluor is Christianity. You are different from 1.2 billion Muslims, 860 million Hindus, 25 million Sikhs, and you name it.