Olympic Games Paris 2024
- Thread starter B00Mer
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Nope. But I do know a couple of people with vaginas that have more balls than most men.
The feud between the IOC and the IBA stems from the 2016 Rio Olympics. Allegations of judges fixing fights during the Games in Brazil were confirmed by an independent investigation and led to the IOC demanding that the IBA clean up its act or risk losing its status as a governing body.
As an interim measure, the IOC took over the running of the boxing competition at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021, as it has also done here in Paris.
However, far from improving its governance in the meantime, the IBA further angered the IOC when it reelected Umar Kremlev as president without contest in 2022.
Kremlev, a Russian businessman with ties to the Kremlin, has been a vocal critic of the IOC and its president, Thomas Bach, and the IBA was derecognized after an IOC vote in June 2023.
"The boxers fully deserve to be governed by an international federation with integrity and transparency," Bach said at the time.
The consequences of that vote, though, have created a disparity in the way amateur boxing competitions are run and, it appears, their rules. While it is no longer involved at the Olympics, the IBA still controls its world championships, where the controversy erupted.
In the short term, both boxers will continue in their respective catagories in the competition. "You cannot just come out and disqualify somebody and establish the rules afterwards," Christian Klaue, another IOC spokesperson, added on Friday.
In the longer term, the IOC may revisit its overall policy on gender eligibility, although Harper acknowledges that "there is no singular solution that is going to make everyone happy."
Boris van der Vorst, the president of World Boxing, which is positioning itself to take over as the sport's global body, told the Associated Press that his organization would always put "athletes' safety first" when it came to developing policies, but added that "when people are eligible to compete, we have to respect them."
"It's not clear with DSD athletes how much stronger they are on a pound for pound basis," she said. "And in the boxing world, the safety issue comes down to pound for pound strength, because you're putting together people of the same size.
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(Khelif defeated Anna Luca Hamori of Hungary 5:0 in the quarterfinals of the women’s 66-kilogram division)
As an interim measure, the IOC took over the running of the boxing competition at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021, as it has also done here in Paris.
However, far from improving its governance in the meantime, the IBA further angered the IOC when it reelected Umar Kremlev as president without contest in 2022.
Kremlev, a Russian businessman with ties to the Kremlin, has been a vocal critic of the IOC and its president, Thomas Bach, and the IBA was derecognized after an IOC vote in June 2023.
"The boxers fully deserve to be governed by an international federation with integrity and transparency," Bach said at the time.
The consequences of that vote, though, have created a disparity in the way amateur boxing competitions are run and, it appears, their rules. While it is no longer involved at the Olympics, the IBA still controls its world championships, where the controversy erupted.
In the short term, both boxers will continue in their respective catagories in the competition. "You cannot just come out and disqualify somebody and establish the rules afterwards," Christian Klaue, another IOC spokesperson, added on Friday.
In the longer term, the IOC may revisit its overall policy on gender eligibility, although Harper acknowledges that "there is no singular solution that is going to make everyone happy."
Boris van der Vorst, the president of World Boxing, which is positioning itself to take over as the sport's global body, told the Associated Press that his organization would always put "athletes' safety first" when it came to developing policies, but added that "when people are eligible to compete, we have to respect them."
"It's not clear with DSD athletes how much stronger they are on a pound for pound basis," she said. "And in the boxing world, the safety issue comes down to pound for pound strength, because you're putting together people of the same size.Paris Olympics: What's behind boxing controversy? — DW
Two boxers are competing at the Olympics despite failing gender tests at the 2023 World Boxing Championships.
The feud between the IOC and the IBA stems from the 2016 Rio Olympics. Allegations of judges fixing fights during the Games in Brazil were confirmed by an independent investigation and led to the IOC demanding that the IBA clean up its act or risk losing its status as a governing body.
As an interim measure, the IOC took over the running of the boxing competition at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021, as it has also done here in Paris.
However, far from improving its governance in the meantime, the IBA further angered the IOC when it reelected Umar Kremlev as president without contest in 2022.
Kremlev, a Russian businessman with ties to the Kremlin, has been a vocal critic of the IOC and its president, Thomas Bach, and the IBA was derecognized after an IOC vote in June 2023.
"The boxers fully deserve to be governed by an international federation with integrity and transparency," Bach said at the time.
The consequences of that vote, though, have created a disparity in the way amateur boxing competitions are run and, it appears, their rules. While it is no longer involved at the Olympics, the IBA still controls its world championships, where the controversy erupted.
In the short term, both boxers will continue in their respective catagories in the competition. "You cannot just come out and disqualify somebody and establish the rules afterwards," Christian Klaue, another IOC spokesperson, added on Friday.
In the longer term, the IOC may revisit its overall policy on gender eligibility, although Harper acknowledges that "there is no singular solution that is going to make everyone happy."
Boris van der Vorst, the president of World Boxing, which is positioning itself to take over as the sport's global body, told the Associated Press that his organization would always put "athletes' safety first" when it came to developing policies, but added that "when people are eligible to compete, we have to respect them."
View attachment 23869"It's not clear with DSD athletes how much stronger they are on a pound for pound basis," she said. "And in the boxing world, the safety issue comes down to pound for pound strength, because you're putting together people of the same size.
(Khelif defeated Anna Luca Hamori of Hungary 5:0 in the quarterfinals of the women’s 66-kilogram division)Paris Olympics: What's behind boxing controversy? — DW
Two boxers are competing at the Olympics despite failing gender tests at the 2023 World Boxing Championships.
This is Amy Broadhurst, the Irish woman who beat Khelif to win Gold in Tokyo.
Khelif's record.
Point is, Khelif wins, and she loses.
It's possible to beat her and win a medal.
It's also that in the four years since Broadhurst, she's trained a shitton and is now a better boxer.
The ONLY way the IOC could ever make the Olympics "Fair" at this point is to genetic test every single athlete and either disqualify anyone that has ANY sort of genetic or physical traits that give them any 'advantages' - no more too tall basketball players, no more people like Phelps whose lactic acid is lower which gave him an advantage in the pool, along with how his shoulders were broader and ankles allowed greater push, for example, or disqualify women who have, let's say, PCOS which gives them higher Testosterone - OR recognize that athletes are a whole different kind of human and likely all of them have SOMETHING that gives them advantages to beat other people in the games and get rid of the games all together since that's "totally not fair!"... OR break every sport up into categories for every type of group of people there are out there and have competitions based on those factors... OR... realize that sometimes people win, sometimes they lose and people need to get over themselves looking for excuses for why a person lost.
BTW where's the outcry over the child rapist? None of you against Khelif has said SHIT about him yet...
He’s exposed, people watching live in person & otherwise are fully aware. There’s no controversy over whether or not he’s exactly what he is. Just another Epstein Island-type douchebag representing his nation as a child rapist and he’s out there wearing it.
This controversy isn’t about his physical attributes or genetic advantages or otherwise, but about him being some deviant mental defective with an attraction for children.
There aren’t different divisions for double-jointed ankles & non-double-jointed ankles…but there are different divisions Men & Women.
Do I think these two boxers are men or women? It doesn’t matter and in the big scheme of things neither does anybody else’s opinion outside of the sporting world itself matter. Not celebrities or TikTok whomevers or whatever’s.
Potentially, outside of elite sports, these two boxers could’ve lived their entire lives, & never learned themselves about their own XY genes & unless they ended up with testicular cancer… that they had both sets of dangling & non-dangling bits & pieces if that’s what’s going on there, which I really don’t care about.
Back in the world of sports, & specifically, elite sporting competition, the cat is out of the bag and it will need to be addressed, especially in contact sports. Women & men are different and I’m very cool with that!!!
There’s a division in sporting between men & women for a reason, & that was set up long before (I’m assuming) DSD was thought of or discovered or Thought of becoming an issue, etc…with the above two divisions.
Then, depending on specific sporting events and competitions, there are subdivisions in many based upon age or weight not only for fairness but for the safety of the competitors. It’s not like there isn’t a precedent already from hockey leagues based upon age, to wrestling events based on weight, etc…
Your posted picture of the two basketball players is excellent for your argument, & mine. Kudos
In the other LGBTQ…etc…thread, I gave the example of me sparring with someone who became an Olympian, and he became an Olympian in the super heavyweight division of wrestling (not boxing, but medalling in boxing for him wouldn’t have surprised me whatsoever.
We ended up sparring (training) together but in no way would we have ever ended up in the ring together against each other, because it would’ve been like a man fighting a child (me being the child). That was the difference between us in weights, reach, physical size, raw physical strength, etc…& I would potentially have ended up dead Or at least quite broken in an actual fight, and I doubt it would’ve lasted 46 seconds. That’s straight up honest!!
For me, having the ability to spar with somebody on that level (training) was super advantageous because his skill set and physical attributes made the fact that I could box both left and right handed irrelevant….& it made me much better as a boxer…& for him, it was barely cardio for a workout. This is 40 years ago and for me that was a core memory because I was so so outclassed in size and strength and skill level…Where as for Jeff He would probably barely remember that if at all.
Should we (he and I 40 years ago) have ended in the same ring because we both happen to be men? It would hardly have been fair contest, & not because he outclassed me skill wise by far but his arms were about 8 inches longer than mine, and he was about 100 pounds heavier, and a head taller then me, and about five shoe sizes larger than me, and so on and so forth.
This man was a true giant, not just physically, but athletically. He would have competed with People in his own division so as not to accidentally (or otherwise) killed those that might have ended up in the ring with him. That’s why in boxing (or wrestling, etc…) not only are there divisions for men and women, but by weight.
Generally (& there are always exceptions) Men are larger & stronger than Women. That’s just the way it is. In the last several days, I’ve seen quotes of percentages thrown around between the difference in force in a punch (generally, & there are always exceptions) between men and women, and it’s more than significant.
How this DSD controversy will play out in the world of elite sports, I have no idea, but it will have to be addressed, and not everybody is going to be happy about the outcome, but that’s just the way it is.
To make this easy. Ron you wouldnt need to explain this to a man. So arguing with someone who says they are a man but cant think logically like a man, makes that man a woman.
The irony, for this guy, was that wrestling was probably an afterthought for him after boxing and several other sports. Jeff Thue was sixteen years old when he joined Regina’s Underdog Wrestling Club in 1984. He won the 1985 provincial and national Midget Wrestling Championships. The following year he placed second at the National Junior Championships. He won gold at the Canada Games in 1987 and 1989, and placed fourth in Greco Roman wrestling at the Espoir (under 20) World Championships.
In 1988, Jeff won the provincial espoir and senior wrestling crowns and in 1991 he was the Canadian Senior Champion and the Canada Cup Champion in both freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling. He won bronze medals at the 1991 Senior World Games, and at the 1991 Senior World Cup. At the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games, 23 year old Jeff Thue won a silver medal in the super-heavyweight category.
Jeff Thue - Saskatchewan Sports Hall of Fame
Jeff Thue was sixteen years old when he joined Regina’s Underdog Wrestling Club in 1984. He won the 1985 provincial and national Midget Wrestling Championships. The following year he placed second at the National Junior Championships. He won gold at Read more →
Jeff Thue - Wikipedia
Not exposed enough to be disallowed.
Meanwhile people are calling for Khelif to be denied to continue and told to go home.
That is the point of comparison.
As for the 'controversy' - it doesn't matter. IOC approved of BOTH situations yet one is more disgustingly wrong than the other.
Khelif's physical attributes? She looks like a lot of other women out there. Genetic advantages? Not so many that she has losses to her record so it's not THAT much of an advantage.
Did he live on McIntosh?The irony, for this guy, was that wrestling was probably an afterthought for him after boxing and several other sports. Jeff Thue was sixteen years old when he joined Regina’s Underdog Wrestling Club in 1984. He won the 1985 provincial and national Midget Wrestling Championships. The following year he placed second at the National Junior Championships. He won gold at the Canada Games in 1987 and 1989, and placed fourth in Greco Roman wrestling at the Espoir (under 20) World Championships.
In 1988, Jeff won the provincial espoir and senior wrestling crowns and in 1991 he was the Canadian Senior Champion and the Canada Cup Champion in both freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling. He won bronze medals at the 1991 Senior World Games, and at the 1991 Senior World Cup. At the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games, 23 year old Jeff Thue won a silver medal in the super-heavyweight category.
Jeff Thue - Saskatchewan Sports Hall of Fame
Jeff Thue was sixteen years old when he joined Regina’s Underdog Wrestling Club in 1984. He won the 1985 provincial and national Midget Wrestling Championships. The following year he placed second at the National Junior Championships. He won gold at Read more →sasksportshalloffame.com
Jeff Thue - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
That’s 40 years ago and I don’t remember. He had a younger brother (adopted) but also went to the same school, named Jade Eagle if that helps any for clues for you.
Yes, and Khelif is a WOMAN.
True enough, so why do you keep posting on it, Ron?
I'm posting on it because what's being said about her is not only wrong, it could endanger her back in her home country. Throw in the absolute hilarity of the hypocrisy of the anti-trans crowd...
Yes...
So the solution is what again?
I wonder just how MANY athletes would not pass the genetic testings/hormonal testings if that's how the IOC now had to set the games up...
Yes, and in days long before now, no one would have known if a woman had higher T than others, or if they had DSD.
For that matter, no one would know if a man had LOWER T or DSD themselves.
Maybe we should go back to that.
Yep, and the two women involved in this bullshit PASSED those requisitions to Box in the Olympics.
Sure, okay.
That happens.
I was in Karate for a while. I was paired with people who had higher belts than me all the time. That's how you build up knowledge and stamina, you learn at the lower levels, learn more against the higher levels, and keep learning once you reach black belt (or really begin learning actually).
The fact that some of these people were kids almost 20 or more years younger than me, or people 20 or more years older meant nothing. For them I was just a sparring partner they didn't need to be overly worried about, for me it was a hard workout.
Exactly.
And that's what was going on with Khelif; she was put into the weight class that matched her weight.
No other considerations are made in boxing; taller, shorter, longer reach, more compact body - it doesn't matter. Weight does. You could still be shorter than someone but still weigh the same.
Sure.
But Khelif is a woman.
Think about it this way too, IF her punches were THAT extreme, we'd have heard something before this. Hell, it would'a happened in Tokyo. But it didn't, and she got beat out for the Gold, no one complained, etc.
It's only NOW - thanks to the IBA and illegally letting her medical record out that has her alleged tests results - that it's become an issue.
Because the IOC denied them control over Olympic Boxing.
No; and what if it's the "She's a woman" side that comes out on top, like it is currently? The IOC already has said she is approved, so why can't those calling for her to be DQ'd and not allowed to compete just "deal with it"?
This woman's life will keep being in danger back in her home country where being anything trans/trans like is illegal but hopefully the 'fame' she's got from all this will protect her.
Simple solution. Stop with separate categories. Have unified sports regardless of gender. End of argument.
There's Angela Carini's record.
That's Amy Broadhurst's record
Imane Khelif.
Look at those and tell me you don't find that Angela was just clearly outmatched by Khelif by raw stats alone.
Or by Amy's raw stats.
Would we be demanding Amy's genetics if she had the same situation against Angela?
Maybe the weights only class isn't the way to go in women's boxing.
She may have qualified for the Olympics but that doesn't mean she should have been there.
If you DO think it, then the same needs to be said of Khelif.
Points of view from other female (or are they male now?) boxers
Aussie world champ lashes Italian boxer for ‘publicity stunt’ against Imane Khelif
Skye Nicolson, who fought for Australia at the Tokyo Olympics before turning professional, urged people to “be a lion, not a sheep” and consider the facts before joining the global pile-on.
And now this is floating around too (I won't call it real or not)
"Was She Faking": Italy's Angela Carini's Questionable Past Comes to Light After Quitting Against Imane Khelif Raises Eyebrows
Is Italys' Angela Carini a "quitter"? Fight footage from two years ago resurfaces which starts off yet another debate on the Olympian
www.essentiallysports.com
Ok, sure. There is no controversy. It’s a non-issue & there is no debate happening currently with respect to this both on this forum and elsewhere, etc…except there is.
So there’s not men’s & woman’s divisions?
I’m not arguing that. Currently the IOC bases their decision upon gender upon how they are listed on their passports. Full stop. That’s it. Their choice.
I’m also not arguing that. You might think that I am, but I’m not, anywhere in this thread or the LGBTQ…etc…thread either.
I do think the memes are funny, but I’ve never shied away from laughing at memes on pretty much any thread topic. I’m pretty consistent there.
Sorry to say, but I don’t think that’s relevant to the situation at hand. It’s shitty, don’t get me wrong, but really not relevant.
That’s fine if it’s “lawn bowling” or something like that perhaps (not a contact support), & men might still dominate it, but nobody dies or is in the situation to potentially do so.
The DSD thing has come to light, & it’s going to be addressed one way or the other, & not everybody is gonna be happy about it (Serryah, your opinion might prevail) and that’s just the way it is, but it is going to have to be addressed. It’s not gonna go away on its own based upon which box on a passport is checked for gender. Use whatever cliché you wish from “the cat is out of the bag” to “spilt milk” etc…but it’s out there now & it’s real.
I’m not arguing that either. The IBA is corrupt and it’s paying for it. It was inflicting rules selectively due to national bias. Can’t do that fairly just like the IOC can’t jeopardize the safety of other competitors because it’s illegal to be trans/other in certain nations for certain competitors.
(Anyway, it’s a cold windy morning here in Saskatchewan, & about 90 minutes ago there was a loud bang, followed by a loud buzz for about three seconds (I’m guessing about two blocks away to the south of me), & then the power went out. There’s probably a really unhappy squirrel involved. I’ve got to sign out to save my phone charge for work related stuff at this point until the power comes back on)
I'm not saying that.
There are, didn't say there wasn't.
Exactly so... I guess then why the issue?
You specifically may not be (though I do think you are, you say you're not so...) but the other people commenting on this are.
I do think the memes are funny, but I’ve never shied away from laughing at memes on pretty much any thread topic. I’m pretty consistent there.
Meme's have their place, yeah
It's not relevant?
Well I suppose it's not your life at risk so why would it be.
But it absolutely IS relevant, because she was outed by the IBA and despite support for her by Algeria, her life just got lots more dangerous because of that outing. To pretend otherwise is really to not understand the dangers that she, people who are trans, and just anyone who is "not the binary" truly face.
You haven't seen be bowl
(I am kidding, I used to be good but we've no bowling alley anymore)That's the thing, it has been.
And yet, here we are, still with too many arguing over it.
No it won't go away, it always was a thing, and always will be. But again, what would your solution be?
1. there is no danger to other competitors; if there was there'd be evidence of it LONG before now. So that line of thought is bullshit.
2. The IBA wasn't just doing this out of national bias. There's a history of corruption there including bias to their own country's boxers. So it's a lot more involved than just 'national bias'.
3. EVERYTHING has been fair about Khelif, or will you demand she give back the Silver medal she won in Tokyo? She wins, she loses, that's how sports is. And I'll repeat what someone else said somewhere - if these women didn't want to be risked getting hurt, then they should not be boxing. Full stop.
4. Khelif has support from other boxers she's fought against. Do they think she's trans? No. They say she's a woman. Do they think the DSD is an issue? Maybe, but that needs to be resolved fairly. That's the thing though, what would be 'fair'? Certainly not denying her status as a woman, nor putting her into a men's division (guess why). IF she were absolutely cleaning house and dominating, THEN there'd be reasonable problems. But she's not.
Wish it was cold here... We've been under heat warnings almost all July and all of August so far. Normal temps should only be 25ish.