Hamas attacks Israel

Ron in Regina

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So neither wants the other in any long term solution. Great way to start a negotiation.
Those not Palestine/Hamas/West Bank/Gaza or Israel are the only ones currently pushing for a two state solution it seems.

Israel (with Hamas out of the equation) could be agreeable to a two state solution with whatever Palestine (?) evolves into if it recognizes Israel’s right to exist? Hamas’s goal is the eradication of Israel.
 
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petros

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Those not Palestine/Hamas/West Bank/Gaza or Israel are the only ones currently pushing for a two state solution it seems.

Israel (with Hamas out of the equation) could be agreeable to a two state solution with whatever Palestine (?) evolves into if it recognizes Israel’s right to exist? Hamas’s goal is the eradication of Israel.
Maybe it was a mistake for the Zionists to declare independence from Palestine?
 

Taxslave2

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Make Palestine part of Israel, and there will be no more problem. Arabs in Israel have more rights than in most Arab countries.
 

Ron in Regina

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Laugh as much as you like, Tax. That's real Jews, not some clown in BC purporting to speak for Jews.
Interesting. In the news article that the picture comes from that you posted above in #2625 (unless it’s a stock photo that’s being used for multiple new sites and stories):
At least they’re now calling it Biden’s proposal & not the Israeli proposal as the case in previous days because that just didn’t ring right…& here we are now.

Political pressure is mounting on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as more than 100,000 Israelis flooded the streets of this city on Saturday night demanding he accept a U.S.-brokered deal for a cease-fire in Gaza while members of his far-right coalition threatened that any such move would bring down the government.

I’m assuming what they mean above is US proposed as opposed to brokered…

The proposal, revealed in a surprise (I’m assuming to Israel, leaving Gaza in the care and control of Hamas) speech by President Biden on Friday, calls for a six-week pause in fighting, during which hostages (maybe 30 of them being the hopefully surviving woman and children) taken from Israel by Hamas would be released in phases in exchange for hundreds (about 700 in the first stage) of Palestinian prisoners, and there would be a significant boost in aid shipments (resupply for Hamas, along with the 6 weeks to redeploy) to the Gaza Strip (so that Hamas can drag this out even longer). The key sticking point — the same one that has doomed past negotiations — is how and when the war will officially end.

From knowing little about the goat rodeo 8 months ago, I’ve learned to cynically read between the lines here…
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Interesting. In the news article that the picture comes from that you posted above in #2625 (unless it’s a stock photo that’s being used for multiple new sites and stories):
At least they’re now calling it Biden’s proposal & not the Israeli proposal as the case in previous days because that just didn’t ring right…& here we are now.

Political pressure is mounting on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as more than 100,000 Israelis flooded the streets of this city on Saturday night demanding he accept a U.S.-brokered deal for a cease-fire in Gaza while members of his far-right coalition threatened that any such move would bring down the government.

I’m assuming what they mean above is US proposed as opposed to brokered…

The proposal, revealed in a surprise (I’m assuming to Israel, leaving Gaza in the care and control of Hamas) speech by President Biden on Friday, calls for a six-week pause in fighting, during which hostages (maybe 30 of them being the hopefully surviving woman and children) taken from Israel by Hamas would be released in phases in exchange for hundreds (about 700 in the first stage) of Palestinian prisoners, and there would be a significant boost in aid shipments (resupply for Hamas, along with the 6 weeks to redeploy) to the Gaza Strip (so that Hamas can drag this out even longer). The key sticking point — the same one that has doomed past negotiations — is how and when the war will officially end.

From knowing little about the goat rodeo 8 months ago, I’ve learned to cynically read between the lines here…
I know y'all think Biden is someplace between Hitler and Stalin, and convicted felon Trump is somewhere between Moses and Jesus, but I'll tell you what. Biden seems to be the only national leader trying to end this fight, instead of picking the blue shirts or the red shirts and mindlessly cheering.
 

Ron in Regina

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I know y'all think Biden is someplace between Hitler and Stalin, and convicted felon Trump is somewhere between Moses and Jesus, but I'll tell you what. Biden seems to be the only national leader trying to end this fight, instead of picking the blue shirts or the red shirts and mindlessly cheering.
I think Biden is somewhere between dottering grandfather and generally well scripted when he sticks to it. I don’t see him as evil, as there are so many checks and balances in the American system as compared to the Canadian system, for instance. Our Canadian Prime Minister holds much more power than the American President in order to unilaterally bugger off onto his own tangent… but thankfully, Canada is a rather toothless nation at this point in time.

I see Trump as somewhere between batshit crazy and highly manipulative, but when he’s in office, he’s highly manipulative for America & Americans…which is a little bit concerning being one of your two closest neighbours and sharing your longest Border, with America, being Canada’s largest trade partner. From the outside, looking in, that is not a cross between Moses and Jesus (maybe I need to learn more about Moses and Jesus).

America’s allies in the Middle East being both Egypt & Israel…& Israel making public all the tunnels between Gaza & Egypt this week…having a cease-fire agreement proposal thrown out there seemingly without consultation of Hamas or Israel, it seems like Biden is following someone’s script, passionately.

A cease-fire agreement that gets the IDF out of Gaza for the next six weeks and away from the 20-ish tunnels discovered into Egypt from Rafah so far in the last week accomplishes what exactly with respect to ending the Hamas control over Gaza leading to Oct 7th 2.0, 3.0, 11-teen.0, etc…?

Perhaps the IDF should give another week in Rafah, to discover the remainder of the tunnels hopefully…, then destroy them all, then pull out and watch that Gaza/Egypt border like hawks from satellite…& if arms are going across that border into Gaza, or hostages out, then cancel the cease-fire??
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I think Biden is somewhere between dottering grandfather and generally well scripted when he sticks to it. I don’t see him as evil, as there are so many checks and balances in the American system as compared to the Canadian system, for instance. Our Canadian Prime Minister holds much more power than the American President in order to unilaterally bugger off onto his own tangent… but thankfully, Canada is a rather toothless nation at this point in time.

I see Trump as somewhere between batshit crazy and highly manipulative, but when he’s in office, he’s highly manipulative for America & Americans…which is a little bit concerning being one of your two closest neighbours and sharing your longest Border, with America, being Canada’s largest trade partner. From the outside, looking in, that is not a cross between Moses and Jesus (maybe I need to learn more about Moses

America’s allies in the Middle East being both Egypt & Israel…& Israel making public all the tunnels between Gaza & Egypt this week…having a cease-fire agreement proposal thrown out there seemingly without consultation of Hamas or Israel, it seems like Biden is following someone’s script, passionately.

A cease-fire agreement that gets the IDF out of Gaza for the next six weeks and away from the 20-ish tunnels discovered into Egypt from Rafah so far in the last week accomplishes what exactly with respect to ending the Hamas control over Gaza leading to Oct 7th 2.0, 3.0, 11-teen.0, etc…?

Perhaps the IDF should give another week in Rafah, to discover the remainder of the tunnels hopefully…, then destroy them all, then pull out and watch that Gaza/Egypt border like hawks from satellite…& if arms are going across that border into Gaza, or hostages out, then cancel the cease-fire??
Were he highly manipulative for all Americans, I'd have fewer problems with him.

Of course Biden is following someone else's script. The Presidency is not a person, it is a staff of tens of thousands. But he has pursued two core principals in this situation: Israel has the right to defend itself, and Israel has a duty to protect and respect civilian life and well-being right up to the point of mission failure. And he has jumped at every even half-assed realistic hope of a cease-fire and negotiation.

He may not be much, but among the leaders of the world, so far he's the adult in the room.

Sorry he's not your favorited convicted felon.
 
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Ron in Regina

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Were he highly manipulative for all Americans, I'd have fewer problems with him.

Of course Biden is following someone else's script. The Presidency is not a person, it is a staff of tens of thousands. But he has pursued two core principals in this situation: Israel has the right to defend itself, and Israel has a duty to protect and respect civilian life and well-being right up to the point of mission failure. And he has jumped at every even half-assed realistic hope of a cease-fire and negotiation.

He may not be much, but among the leaders of the world, so far he's the adult in the room.

Sorry he's not your favorited convicted felon.
My favourite convicted felon is Martha Stewart. Trump wouldn’t even be in the top 20.
 

Ron in Regina

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Anyway, Hamas/Israel etc…An aide to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed on Sunday that Israel had accepted a framework deal for winding down the Gaza war now being advanced by U.S. President Joe Biden, though he described it as flawed and in need of much more work? I wonder if Netanyahu knows that he & Israel have accepted a framework for Israel winding down the war with Hamas?
In an interview with Britain's Sunday Times, Ophir Falk, chief foreign policy advisor to Netanyahu, said Biden's proposal was "a deal we agreed to — it's not a good deal but we dearly want the hostages released, all of them".
1717385465550.jpeg
"There are a lot of details to be worked out," he said, adding that Israeli conditions, including "the release of the hostages and the destruction of Hamas as a genocidal terrorist organisation" have not changed.
The first phase entails a truce and the return of “some” hostages held by Hamas, after which the sides would negotiate on an open-ended cessation of hostilities for a second phase in which remaining “live” captives would go free, Biden said.
1717385682399.jpegThat sequencing appears to “imply” that Hamas would continue to play a role in incremental arrangements mediated by Egypt and Qatar - a “potential” clash with Israel's determination to resume the campaign to eliminate the Iranian-backed Islamist group (???).
1717385704075.jpegThe primary sticking point has been Israel's insistence that it would discuss only temporary pauses to fighting until Hamas is destroyed. Hamas, which shows no sign of stepping aside, says it will free hostages only under a path to a permanent end to “the” war….& by “the” war do they mean “this” war currently until next time?
1717385723681.jpegIn his speech, Biden said his latest proposal "creates a better 'day after' in Gaza without Hamas in power" (?????).
He did not elaborate on how this would be achieved and acknowledged that "there are a number of details to negotiate to move from phase one to phase two" (???).
Iran-backed Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, has ruled the Gaza Strip since 2007, a year after it won parliamentary elections and following a brief civil war with security forces from the Western-backed Palestinian Authority.

President Joe Biden presented a framework deal for winding down the Gaza war. Hamas has provisionally welcomed the initiative but has given no indication it might step aside or disarm voluntarily.

On Saturday, however, two far-right Israeli ministers threatened to quit and collapse the country's governing coalition if Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed to the deal.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said they were opposed to striking any deal before Hamas was destroyed.

Similarly, Mr Netanyahu has insisted that there will be no ceasefire until Hamas’s military and governing capabilities are destroyed and all hostages are released.

Hanoch Milwidsky, a senior member of the Knesset for Mr Netanyahu's Likud Party, told the BBC on Sunday that Israel's governing coalition is unified in opposition to the deal, which he called "completely unacceptable".

"The math of the Israeli government has not changed - that means Hamas can no longer rule Gaza, can no longer have any capability, not military not any civilian capability to be in power, and all the hostages need to come back," Mr Milwidsky said. "The war will not stop until these demands are met."
 

spaminator

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'From the river to the sea' much more than mere words
Hateful words always precede hateful deeds

Author of the article:Warren Kinsella
Published Jun 01, 2024 • Last updated 1 day ago • 3 minute read

“From the river to the sea.”


Or, sometimes: “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.”

Most of the time, it’s the shorter version that we see.

Lately, we see it on signs and banners at Canadian and American and European university campuses. We hear it chanted by the (few) students and (many) non-students at those illegal occupations, the ones some media benignly refer to as “encampments.”

From the river to the sea.

The first time you hear it, it sounds pretty innocuous. It doesn’t seem to explicitly advocate violence. In fact, nothing is identified in it, apart from Palestine. It lacks the vehemence and violence of “genocide.”

It’s a mistake, however, to regard “From the river to the sea” as anything other than the flip side of the “genocide” coin. Genocide is the crime; “From the river to the sea” is the remedy. They are connected and have been used – alternatively or together – a huge number of times online since Oct. 7.


On the search engine Bing alone, those words now produce more than 136,000,000 results.



The slogan has been around for decades but was seized upon by the terrorist Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in the ’60s and ’70s – and, later, formally adopted by Hamas killers in their 2017 revised Charter. Article 20 of Hamas’ governing constitution states, “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.”

For some idiotic pro-Palestine protesters (who do not seem to understand the full connotations of the slogan), and for Hamas and its ilk (who do), the “river” referred to is the Jordan, to Israel’s East; and the “sea” is the Mediterranean, to the West. Geographically, that is all of Israel. Logically, it means wiping out the Jewish state.


Still, it’s just words. Are they a problem?

Yes, they are.

Ask Tal-Or Cohen Montemayor, the brilliant lawyer who heads the internet hate watchdog CyberWell. Based in israel, CyberWell finds online hate – these days, overwhelmingly hate against Jews – and pushes social media platforms to remove it, or at least make it show up less often in searches.

The big platforms, like Meta – owner Facebook and Instagram, which together have five billion users worldwide – have in the past removed content that promotes violence and hate. The QAnon conspiracy theory’s slogan, for example, is, “Where go one, we go all.” Meta started terminating accounts that promoted this phrase a few years ago, because it was what the experts call “militarized content.”


Montemayor wants Meta and the other social media mavens to do likewise with “From the river to the sea.” Last week, she appeared before Meta’s Oversight Board, which makes those decisions. Her detailed report makes for compelling reading.

In it, CyberWell writes: “During the current unprecedented surge in antisemitism worldwide following the violent October 7 attacks against Israeli civilians, this phrase is being used … to harass, target, or commit violence against Jews.” Examples include synagogues from Philadelphia to Barcelona being vandalized with the slogan, painting it where the Black September terror group slaughtered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games, and using it “as a rallying cry in multiple illegal college solidarity encampments when physically restricting, harassing, threatening, spitting on, and physically harming Jewish students, press, and members of the public.”


Montemayor says: “It means something very clear to Jews. It is a veiled term to advocate committing genocide against Jews living in Israel, and to destroy the Israeli state.”

It isn’t what the pro-Hamas, anti-Israel cabal claim the words mean that matters. It is how the words are heard by the intended victims: Jews.

Montemayor acknowledges the phrase can mean different things to different people. She also agrees freedom of speech needs to always be protected. But when that slogan is being used with acts of violence and hate against Jews, that’s when it’s true meaning becomes clear, she says.

“We can’t ignore the real world damage (the slogan) is causing,” she says. “It’s being used to incite and mobilize violent acts.”

Hateful words always precede hateful deeds. Hate against Jews – or Christians, or Muslims, or Sikhs or Hindus – is always expressed first in words.

Right now, all over Canada, those deceptive words, “from the river to the sea”, are being heard and seen everywhere. And Jews know what those innocuous-sounding words truly mean:

The end of Israel and, later, them.
 

petros

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Palestine is declaring independence by using violence. Its the American way.

Im sure there was plenty of "we'll never give up until General Washington is dead" propaganda coming out of London at the time.

Cope with reality.
 

Ron in Regina

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Palestine is declaring independence by using violence. Its the American way.

Im sure there was plenty of "we'll never give up until General Washington is dead" propaganda coming out of London at the time.

Cope with reality.
Well, they’re not declaring independence from Hamas. While Hamas officials have said the president’s ideas were serious, the group wants a detailed proposal in writing that reflects what Biden described and includes a comprehensive and lasting cease-fire, according to Arab mediators.

Hamas officials have told mediators that the most recent Israeli proposal they received described a period of “sustainable calm” only in ambiguous terms.

Hamas is concerned that Israel wants to return to fighting after a temporary pause and the release of “some” hostages. “Israel is not serious about negotiating a cease-fire,” Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, told Saudi broadcaster MBC Group on Sunday.

Hamas’s chief in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, is in no hurry to end the war, believing that it is drawing Israel into a quagmire that is turning the country into an international pariah while reviving the Palestinian national cause, according to messages Sinwar has sent to mediators from Arab states. Hamas’s political leaders in exile, however, are eager to end the war provided a deal guarantees the group’s survival and grants it a continued role in governing Gaza.
Hamas has become increasingly confident that the group can outlast Israel’s campaign as international condemnation has grown over the Israeli military’s operation in the southern Gazan city of Rafah.

The indirect negotiations between Israel and Hamas, via mediators from Arab states, have stalled mainly because of disagreement over whether an initial, temporary cease-fire and hostage release would lead to a permanent end to the war. Israel wants a free hand to resume fighting and meet its war aims, while Hamas wants Israel to end its invasion of Gaza and withdraw its forces.
 

petros

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You sure are stuck in a propaganda loop.

Do you know what Israel really wants?

Its doesnt want to have to move 700,000 people out of West Bank/Jerusalem and a million Palestinians moving back home.

Hostages shmostages.