Trudeau’s Newest New Carbon Tax

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
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Well, yes. It would also mean you no longer live in a country that's even roughly a democracy. But I get the feeling you'd like that.
not really

I like the idea of democracy, but as we've learned it needs to be reined in with a constitution that is strictly adhered to, and so should its spending.

western governments need to scrap whatever school of economics got us into this mess, and turn to the one Ben Franklin would have promoted where it's taught that "a penny saved is a penny earned"

the reason almost every democracy is in the world is in the same boat is because they all suffer from the same Grand Fiscal Malaise, in that every branch of every level of government, municipal/local, provincial/state, and federal, all blow their budgets and the end of every fiscal year, all because of the misguided fear that if they don't spend it they'll lose it. And what does it almost inevitably amount to? Cutbacks! so they're losing it anyways!! fools, but fools on your behalf. joke's on us.

working in a trade, in dnd, for 40 years, and shaking my head through pretty much all of it, I'd often thought what we need to do as a nation is declare war on public deficits and debt. I thought yeah, that's something the military should be able to wrap their little minds around. make all public debt the enemy. the only things any government of the people should go into debt for is natural disasters and war in defence of the nation.

as for all the bleeding hearts this would affect.. here's a hemp tissue.
you're either with us or you're against us, traitor.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
57,938
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Washington DC
Nations declare war on public debt and deficits about once a week.

Declarations are easy. Wars are hard.

Money is just dirty paper. Or increasingly, a few microseconds of computer code.

The first thing we need to do is figure out what the real problem is.
 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
1,054
113
well, I just told you what the real problem is: governments frivolously blowing their budgets at the end of EVERY FISCAL YEAR. X 50 years = $trillion$ in public debt.
 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
1,054
113
Is that a problem? In what way has it harmed you or anybody you know?
lol

well, I suppose, yes, when there isn't enough money for health, or bullets to defend the nation...
so now the trillions in debt suddenly isn't an issue with you any more??
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
112,938
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Low Earth Orbit
Is that a problem? In what way has it harmed you or anybody you know?
What is the poverty rate for seniors in Canada?
The poverty rate for seniors increased by 2.5 percentage points to 5.6% in 2021, close to the 2019 poverty rate (5.7%), mainly because of the decrease in COVID-19 benefits. Similarly, after a decrease from 12.0% in 2019 to 7.4% in 2020, the poverty rate for unattached seniors increased to 13.0% in 2021.May 2, 2023
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
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lol

well, I suppose, yes, when there isn't enough money for health, or bullets to defend the nation...
so now the trillions in debt suddenly isn't an issue with you any more??
As I said above, I don't know. Only thing I know for sure is that people talk about money as if it's a real thing, and not a symbol.

Do you have enough capable personnel and tools to provide a reasonable level of health to all your people?

How many bullets is enough to defend the nation? From whom or what?

We're starting to get to the bottom of it, but still have a ways to go.
 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
1,054
113
As I said above, I don't know. Only thing I know for sure is that people talk about money as if it's a real thing, and not a symbol.

Do you have enough capable personnel and tools to provide a reasonable level of health to all your people?

How many bullets is enough to defend the nation? From whom or what?

We're starting to get to the bottom of it, but still have a ways to go.
on that note

segue to musical interlude in

3

2

 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
1,054
113
I'm sure Pete Poo-lover'll make it all OK.
I'm sure he won't; not before a major societal paradigm shift.

BUT, democracy being for deposing governments, not electing them, I guess everyone should get a shot at being deposed.

the current government definitely needs being deposed.

probably so will pete pollypoop's too.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
25,924
9,433
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
In order for Poilievre's proposal to be successful, he'll need the support of the Bloc Quebecois caucus, whose members during the debate repeatedly noted how the motion would have "no impact on Quebec" given the carbon tax is not in effect in that province.

"What we get from this motion is that the Conservative Party is completely out of touch with ‘Quebec’s’ reality.… If they do get back in touch with reality, we will be happy to try to help them out," said Bloc MP Mario Simard during last week's deliberations.

The Liberals are expected to reject the motion, as Trudeau and his lead ministers on the file have already asserted there will be no more carve-outs(opens in a new tab) to their marquee climate policy.

Should Poilievre's motion pass, the move is simply symbolic and will not force the federal government to do anything, rather it will just become a pressure point, by allowing the opposition parties to note that the majority of the House wants the Liberals to act.
The vote is scheduled to take place after question period, at approximately 3:15 p.m. EDT.
 

55Mercury

rigid member
May 31, 2007
4,379
1,054
113
well, I just told you what the real problem is: governments frivolously blowing their budgets at the end of EVERY FISCAL YEAR. X 50 years = $trillion$ in public debt.
1699298059535.png

I highly doubt that bitcoin can solve a damn thing, but omg look at those numbers!
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
25,924
9,433
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
In order for Poilievre's proposal to be successful, he'll need the support of the Bloc Quebecois caucus, whose members during the debate repeatedly noted how the motion would have "no impact on Quebec" given the carbon tax is not in effect in that province.

"What we get from this motion is that the Conservative Party is completely out of touch with ‘Quebec’s’ reality.… If they do get back in touch with reality, we will be happy to try to help them out," said Bloc MP Mario Simard during last week's deliberations.

The Liberals are expected to reject the motion, as Trudeau and his lead ministers on the file have already asserted there will be no more carve-outs(opens in a new tab) to their marquee climate policy.

Should Poilievre's motion pass, the move is simply symbolic and will not force the federal government to do anything, rather it will just become a pressure point, by allowing the opposition parties to note that the majority of the House wants the Liberals to act.
The vote is scheduled to take place after question period, at approximately 3:15 p.m. EDT.
The motion by Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre to have Ottawa extend its carbon price pause to all forms of home heating has been defeated as the Bloc Québécois joined the Liberals to vote down the motion.

It did not affect Quebec, so they voted it down? Have to keep that one in mind when I vote next. If anything, you think they would’ve voted out of equity like the NDP or abstain, if it did not affect them, but….There was nothing in this for Quebec I suppose.
1699304705757.jpeg
The above is last week with this Liberal announcement and below is to yesterday before this vote where the Liberals potentially picked up two seats in Ontario.
1699310945629.jpeg
“Given that the government has announced a ‘temporary, three-year pause’ to the federal carbon tax on home heating oil, the House call on the government to extend that pause to all forms of home heating,” Poilievre’s motion reads.

Last Tuesday, Trudeau said “absolutely not” to the possibility of more carve-outs in the federal carbon price despite the criticisms of the heating oil plan.

The Liberals’ 158 seats are enough to defeat the combined 142 seats of the Conservatives and the NDP, who announced they would support the motion on Thursday.

This meant the Bloc Québécois held the balance in this vote with 32 seats and chose to vote with the Liberals.

In announcing his party’s support for Poilievre’s motion Thursday, NDP MP Peter Julian told reporters in Ottawa his party would be support the motion due to “equity.”
1699304995451.jpeg
University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe told Global News last week he does not anticipate this debate receding as he believes the pause undermines the carbon price, a key policy of Trudeau’s government.

“Its core strength is in providing a uniform incentive to all individuals, all businesses, regardless of where they live, what sector they’re in, what fuel they use,” Tombe said.

“So, I think this is a move that not only undermines the carbon tax itself but changes the conversation around the carbon tax in a fundamental way that will potentially lead to more exemptions. And I think potentially the carbon tax itself, at least at the retail level, being removed entirely.”

In exchange for commitments to increase housing density, Fraser has agreed to cut cheques for municipalities. The issue for the premiers is these deals have been made without provincial involvement — except in Quebec, where the province brokered a $900-million deal with Ottawa on behalf of all its cities and towns.

Every Quebec municipality will have access to funds, while others across the country will have to meet Ottawa's terms to get money through a bilateral deal, said Alberta Premier Danielle Smith. Hmmm….
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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In Halifax, Canada’s 10 premiers, offended by recent comments by Trudeau’s rural economic development minister, Gudie Hutchings, suggesting provinces wanting special deals on carbon taxes from the feds, “perhaps … need to elect more Liberals,” issued a joint statement warning that “federal actions around the federal carbon tax have treated Canadians differently and (we) expect the federal government to support all Canadians fairly.

“The issue isn’t the policy, it’s how the policy is being applied and up until now largely has been ‘somewhat’ fairly applied across the nation. I don’t think anyone can say this today,” he (Scott Moe) said.

The last time the Conservatives advanced a similar motion seeking a tax exemption on home heating fuel, both the Bloc AND NDP rejected the proposal, AND there was one Liberal dissenter: MP Ken McDonald.

This time, the Liberal caucus was united in rejecting the motion, as Trudeau and his lead ministers on the file have already asserted there will be no more carve-outsto their marquee climate policy.

“Premiers are unanimous in calling on the Prime Minister to ensure that federal policies and programs are delivered in a fair and equitable way to all Canadians, particularly in light of the affordability challenges being faced across the country.”

Premiers of all political stripes endorsed the statement, including Liberal Premier Andrew Furey of Newfoundland and Labrador, newly elected NDP Premier Wab Kinew of Manitoba and Coalition Avenir Quebec Premier François Legault, whose province has a cap-and-trade system approved by the Trudeau government in lieu of the federal carbon tax.

Justin Trudeau didn’t even show up in person to vote against the Conservative motion to expand his own Liberal carbon tax break. Pierre Poilievre and his Conservatives had tried to pass a motion that would have extended Trudeau’s carbon tax break for home heating oil to all Canadians, regardless of how they heat their homes.

“All of Trudeau’s MPs sold out their constituents and voted to make their home heating more expensive,” Poilievre said to reporters after the vote.

In every province west of Quebec, natural gas is the most common source of home heating. Now, Trudeau’s 76 Liberal MPs in Ontario, his 15 MPs in British Columbia, four in Manitoba and two in Alberta will need to explain why they voted against giving their constituents the same break they support for Atlantic Canadians.

Justin Trudeau claims that this was a national pause, that it applied to all parts of the country, but the stats tell a different story. In 2019, 49% of PEI homes were heated with oil, 36% in Nova Scotia, 22% in Newfoundland and Labrador and 7% in New Brunswick.
That compares to 4% in Quebec, 2% in Ontario and 1% in British Columbia — and even less than 1% in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Liberal MP Ken McDonald, who has sided with the Conservatives twice already in calling to remove the carbon tax, was heckled loudly as he stood with his party in voting against the motion.

Meanwhile, in Halifax, ALL of Canada’s premiers, EXCEPT Quebec Premier François Legault, presented a unified front in calling on the federal government to exempt the carbon tax on all forms of home heating.

“Premiers are unanimous (?) in calling on the Prime Minister to ensure that federal policies and programs are delivered in a fair and equitable way to all Canadians, particularly in light of the affordability challenges being faced across the country,” they said in a joint statement.
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
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The motion by Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre to have Ottawa extend its carbon price pause to all forms of home heating has been defeated as the Bloc Québécois joined the Liberals to vote down the motion.

It did not affect Quebec, so they voted it down? Have to keep that one in mind when I vote next. If anything, you think they would’ve voted out of equity like the NDP or abstain, if it did not affect them, but….There was nothing in this for Quebec I suppose.
View attachment 19929
The above is last week with this Liberal announcement and below is to yesterday before this vote where the Liberals potentially picked up two seats in Ontario.
View attachment 19931
“Given that the government has announced a ‘temporary, three-year pause’ to the federal carbon tax on home heating oil, the House call on the government to extend that pause to all forms of home heating,” Poilievre’s motion reads.

Last Tuesday, Trudeau said “absolutely not” to the possibility of more carve-outs in the federal carbon price despite the criticisms of the heating oil plan.

The Liberals’ 158 seats are enough to defeat the combined 142 seats of the Conservatives and the NDP, who announced they would support the motion on Thursday.

This meant the Bloc Québécois held the balance in this vote with 32 seats and chose to vote with the Liberals.

In announcing his party’s support for Poilievre’s motion Thursday, NDP MP Peter Julian told reporters in Ottawa his party would be support the motion due to “equity.”
View attachment 19930
University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe told Global News last week he does not anticipate this debate receding as he believes the pause undermines the carbon price, a key policy of Trudeau’s government.

“Its core strength is in providing a uniform incentive to all individuals, all businesses, regardless of where they live, what sector they’re in, what fuel they use,” Tombe said.

“So, I think this is a move that not only undermines the carbon tax itself but changes the conversation around the carbon tax in a fundamental way that will potentially lead to more exemptions. And I think potentially the carbon tax itself, at least at the retail level, being removed entirely.”

In exchange for commitments to increase housing density, Fraser has agreed to cut cheques for municipalities. The issue for the premiers is these deals have been made without provincial involvement — except in Quebec, where the province brokered a $900-million deal with Ottawa on behalf of all its cities and towns.

Every Quebec municipality will have access to funds, while others across the country will have to meet Ottawa's terms to get money through a bilateral deal, said Alberta Premier Danielle Smith. Hmmm….
I don't understand how one province can dictate to the whole country. Alberta definitely needs to get out of confederation if this continues because we end up holding the bag & losing anything that benefits us because Quebec has decided we're not worthy or some such thing. This whole country is set up so that the East easily overrides the West & there's not a damn thing we can do about it until we get someone in office who cares about the whole f'n country & not just politics. This is infuriating!
 
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Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
25,924
9,433
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Regina, Saskatchewan
I don't understand how one province can dictate to the whole country. Alberta definitely needs to get out of confederation if this continues because we end up holding the bag & losing anything that benefits us because Quebec has decided we're not worthy or some such thing. This whole country is set up so that the East easily overrides the West & there's not a damn thing we can do about it until we get someone in office who cares about the whole f'n country & not just politics. This is infuriating!
They were the Tie-Breaker…that’s all. The Bloc seeks to create the conditions necessary for the political secession of Quebecfrom Canada and campaigns actively only within the province during federal elections. The party has been described as social democratic[5] and separatist (or "sovereigntist").