Gender Disphoria

[Decapoda]

As for 'genetic fact'... yeah, okay, keep thinking that.

You disagree that a person with XY chromosomes is genetically male? If even this basic biological premise is something we can't agree on then I guess there is no more discussion to be had.

As for calling people fuckface or asshat... if it's deserved why not? As I said, if pronouns don't matter to people, then why should I bother to respect people when they don't respect others?

Because it makes you look like a hypocritical idiot and it instantly destroys your argument. If you can't make your point without insulting practically everyone around you, then either your point must not be worth much, or you are incapable of rationally defending it. Either way, it's not very effective.

 

[Aetheric]

Polite? Ben isn't the one who threatened physical violence because someone hurt his delicate sensibilities by stating a simple genetic fact. And "polite" is about the last thing that comes to mind as you're lashing out calling him a whiny bitch and calling everyone else who disagrees with you "fuckface" or "asshat." Your hypocrisy is hilarious, and perfectly epitomizes the typical progressive mindset.

You talk about respecting people's right to be called what they feel, yet you show nothing but pure, hateful contempt for anyone who doesn't share your pov, and you refuse to accept anything outside of your own narrow perspective. Pure blind hypocrisy.

It is not a healthy position that poster/progressives are in, that kind of constant inner negative emotions and stress can lead to weakened immune systems.

Let alone the inability to function in civil society without becoming apoplectic,
spewing hate and violence in every interaction with others that don't think exactly like them.

We used to help people like that, now it is officially endorsed, encouraged and fed.

 

[TheShadow]

You cannot force someone to address you by a title in private conversation.
You can request it.

 

[taxslave]

Many people's opinions have no basis on facts.

 

[Serryah]

You disagree that a person with XY chromosomes is genetically male? If even this basic biological premise is something we can't agree on then I guess there is no more discussion to be had.

Not disagreeing with that at all. Just I realize there is also more than XY and XX, genetically.

And I also realize there is a lot more to genetics than just those two markers. And while someone may be XY or XX, also genetically sometimes during the process of growth markers may be switched on or off to switch the corresponding mental process to those markers. And while I think describing it as 'feeling' doesn't cover what's going on, it is as close to what we can get sometimes to explain why a Trans person is how they are. Genetics isn't has 'straight forward' as some, including you, imply.

Because it makes you look like a hypocritical idiot and it instantly destroys your argument. If you can't make your point without insulting practically everyone around you, then either your point must not be worth much, or you are incapable of rationally defending it. Either way, it's not very effective.

Again, considering the amount of times this topic has come up and seeing the same crap from the same people over and over, people who refuse to actually accept that Trans people have a right to be who they are, why should I continue to be and play 'nice' when they won't? Been there, done that (as in, I've tried to discuss the topic politely with them) and I'm done playing 'nice' for them.

 

[Serryah]

It is not a healthy position that poster/progressives are in, that kind of constant inner negative emotions and stress can lead to weakened immune systems.

I'm not the one crying for the harm/exclusion of a person because I can't get past what's under/not under their clothes.

Let alone the inability to function in civil society without becoming apoplectic,
spewing hate and violence in every interaction with others that don't think exactly like them.

You're really new here then, aren't you? Laying the spewing of 'hate/violence' at the feet of only 'progressives' is rich. And again, after dealing with this topic multiple times with certain people - who DGAF about the person they're harming - I am done playing nice.

We used to help people like that, now it is officially endorsed, encouraged and fed.

Help people like what, exactly, and what kind of 'help' do you mean?

 

[petros]

They do have a Right to be who they are but using a foghorn to make sure everyone knows is over the top and unneccessary.

Does everyone need to know Jenny is now Jimmy?

 

[Serryah]

You cannot force someone to address you by a title in private conversation.
You can request it.

That's true. And if the person ignores the request not out of logic but out of a hate/dislike because they can't understand why those words matter?

If you have someone call you 'ma'am', and you aren't one, and ask them to stop, what if they don't do so? Or if they call you 'sir' and aren't a sir? What do you do then? And t his happens all the time. All. The. Time?

 

[Serryah]

Many people's opinions have no basis on facts.

And which fact is that? Yours, mine, or the actual true fact?

 

[petros]

True facts? As opposed to...?

 

[TheShadow]

That's true. And if the person ignores the request not out of logic but out of a hate/dislike because they can't understand why those words matter?

If you have someone call you 'ma'am', and you aren't one, and ask them to stop, what if they don't do so? Or if they call you 'sir' and aren't a sir? What do you do then? And t his happens all the time. All. The. Time?

In my profession, I "dream" of being called nice names.

But if I don't, I go about my work.

If I was asked to use a title I would out of politeness, but if I am asked to use one out of a Marxist attempt at control of others, then I would probably omit the title and go right to the topic and hit the meat of the matter.

That's what most of this is, an attempt social control over another, and a need to feel individual and special.

I don't request titles or academic credentials on my business cards, or when signing memos, contracts, or letters.

I have some titles, I have gender descriptors if I want. I have no use for them. I don't demand or request others use them.

I'm well aware of who I am and what I can do, but then again, I've had some time to get where I am so I'm comfortable in my skin.

 

[Serryah]

In my profession, I "dream" of being called nice names.

But if I don't, I go about my work.

Most people do.

If I was asked to use a title I would out of politeness, but if I am asked to use one out of a Marxist attempt at control of others,

Then you're looking for an excuse to not respect the person making a polite request. It has nothing to do with control or Marxism. Wow... to think such is reaching really, really far.

then I would probably omit the title and go right to the topic and hit the meat of the matter.

The meat being 'respect', and if you won't give it, why should others give it to you?

That's what most of this is, an attempt social control over another, and a need to feel individual and special.

No, it's respect. To think it's anything else is to try to be the one 'controlling' things.

I don't request titles or academic credentials on my business cards, or when signing memos, contracts, or letters.

Fine.

I have some titles, I have gender descriptors if I want. I have no use for them. I don't demand or request others use them.

I honestly don't either; point of fact I don't even care if people don't say my name properly - which happens a LOT mind you especially in a french situation - but other people who have been mis-labeled all their life is going to be sensitive to it.

I'm well aware of who I am and what I can do, but then again, I've had some time to get where I am so I'm comfortable in my skin.

And by saying "oh but you're a _____ not a _____ so I get to call you what I want" is denying Trans people of who THEY are and of the continual fight to not only be recognized but comfortable in THEIR skin due to the outside pressures.

You say you're comfortable in your skin? Trans people don't GET to be that because every day they are being invalidated, denied and usually rejected for being who they are and what they can do. Tell me, if you were in their position, fighting every damned day just to be seen as a person - the person you are - would YOU be able to be okay with it or would you crack eventually?

 

[petros]

Respect is earned. Attitude and actions are how respect is earned. Respect is never demanded. It doesnt come automatically.

You say you're comfortable in your skin? Trans people don't GET to be that because every day they are being invalidated, denied and usually rejected for being who they are and what they can do. Tell me, if you were in their position, fighting every damned day just to be seen as a person - the person you are - would YOU be able to be okay with it or would you crack eventually?

Do you really believe everybody else just cruises through life?

That sounds more like a lack of emotional fortitude. I know trans people who you"d never know they were trans. How do they pull it off? They pull it off because they arent perpetually seeking acceptance because they accept themselves and dont needed acceptance to shore up their egos.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

In my profession, I "dream" of being called nice names.

But if I don't, I go about my work.

If I was asked to use a title I would out of politeness, but if I am asked to use one out of a Marxist attempt at control of others, then I would probably omit the title and go right to the topic and hit the meat of the matter.

That's what most of this is, an attempt social control over another, and a need to feel individual and special.

I don't request titles or academic credentials on my business cards, or when signing memos, contracts, or letters.

I have some titles, I have gender descriptors if I want. I have no use for them. I don't demand or request others use them.

I'm well aware of who I am and what I can do, but then again, I've had some time to get where I am so I'm comfortable in my skin.

Why should anyone give you respect or politeness? You clearly don't give either to anyone else.

 

[TheShadow]

Most people do.



Then you're looking for an excuse to not respect the person making a polite request. It has nothing to do with control or Marxism. Wow... to think such is reaching really, really far.



The meat being 'respect', and if you won't give it, why should others give it to you?



No, it's respect. To think it's anything else is to try to be the one 'controlling' things.



Fine.



I honestly don't either; point of fact I don't even care if people don't say my name properly - which happens a LOT mind you especially in a french situation - but other people who have been mis-labeled all their life is going to be sensitive to it.



And by saying "oh but you're a _____ not a _____ so I get to call you what I want" is denying Trans people of who THEY are and of the continual fight to not only be recognized but comfortable in THEIR skin due to the outside pressures.

You say you're comfortable in your skin? Trans people don't GET to be that because every day they are being invalidated, denied and usually rejected for being who they are and what they can do. Tell me, if you were in their position, fighting every damned day just to be seen as a person - the person you are - would YOU be able to be okay with it or would you crack eventually?

I think you're wrong about respect vs demanding control.

...and that's where it ends.

 

[TheShadow]

Respect is earned. Attitude and actions are how respect is earned. Respect is never demanded. It doesnt come automatically.


Do you really believe everybody else just cruises through life?

That sounds more like a lack of emotional fortitude. I know trans people who you"d never know they were trans. How do they pull it off? They pull it off because they arent perpetually seeking acceptance because they accept themselves and dont needed acceptance to shore up their egos.

Amazing post, petros.

 

[Serryah]

I think you're wrong about respect vs demanding control.

...and that's where it ends.

And where am I wrong?

Respect in this case is "She is-" "I'm sorry but I'm not a she, I'm he." "Oh, sorry about that. He is-"

What's REALLY happening is "She is-" "I'm sorry but I'm not a she, I'm he." "Well you look like a she so you're a she." "But I'm not a she." "I don't care, you're a she to me so a she is what you are."

Explain how what's really happening is respectful?

And how is asking someone not to call you the wrong pronoun 'control'?

 

[petros]

Oh the horror!

Its heartbreaking if you were a he, built like a he, speak like a he, look like a he but someone calls you he even though you call yourself she?

How could anyone possibly be so mean?

 

[TheShadow]

And where am I wrong?

Respect in this case is "She is-" "I'm sorry but I'm not a she, I'm he." "Oh, sorry about that. He is-"

What's REALLY happening is "She is-" "I'm sorry but I'm not a she, I'm he." "Well you look like a she so you're a she." "But I'm not a she." "I don't care, you're a she to me so a she is what you are."

Explain how what's really happening is respectful?

And how is asking someone not to call you the wrong pronoun 'control'?

I think you know the difference between someone asking/offering you the right pronoun and someone demanding it.

If you don't I cannot help you.

You assume that every interaction follows the "Oh, hey, I prefer to be called" and that every response is a refusal.

I said that if asked politely I would use the pronoun, but you can't see that. You only see that I refused in a certain situation.

It's black or white with you and that is one of the real problems.

 

[Serryah]

I think you know the difference between someone asking/offering you the right pronoun and someone demanding it.

I do.

If you don't I cannot help you.

You assume that every interaction follows the "Oh, hey, I prefer to be called" and that every response is a refusal.

No, I'm not assuming that.

I'm stating as a fact that there are sometimes refusals to that request - as by Ben and others stating they wouldn't be that respectful.

I said that if asked politely I would use the pronoun, but you can't see that. You only see that I refused in a certain situation.

If someone asks you to use the pronound and you do, awesome! Glad you do.

But if you refuse then you're being a dick.

Simple as that.

Now, that said, if the person asking you to use a different pronoun is requesting it AND is a dick in that request, I don't see an issue telling the person off for being a dick. But their being a dick is beside the point of their being a he or she in their pronoun.

And again, look at it from their point of view, about how damned tiring it's got to be to constantly correct people and have some of those people ignore the correction just to be an asshole.

It's black or white with you and that is one of the real problems.

Nothing, not one damn thing, in life is black and white. Everything is gray and anyone who thinks it is only black and white is blind.