Democracy

[Tecumsehsbones]

I get a kick out of the U.S. tho' - Biden says he wants to increase taxes from 8.25% (or something close) to approximately 10% on businesses. In Canada, our tax code STARTS at 15% so I have to chuckle when I hear all the complaining. I understand why our taxes are higher; I just find the complaining in the U.S. funny. At those rates if I were a company, I'd move to the States too!!
JMHO

The corporate tax rate in the U.S. is 21%.

https://corporatetax.procon.org/federal-corporate-income-tax-rates/

 

[bob the dog]

OK, what does mean equal representation?
I promise no tricks and no traps in this thread. It is obviously true that urbanites and rural folk can have very different interests, and that the populations favor the urbanites in a straight "one person, one vote" system.
But is that unfair? Should one man who has 20,000 hectares have a greater say than one who has 40 square metres?
I'm listening.
I'll deal with the state/province vs. national government thing later. That's too many balls in the air at once.

The deck was stacked from day one in 1867. When Manitoba joined in 1870 there were already 180 seats divided between Upper and Lower. A small number of ridings for the Maritimes to prevent total backstabbing by the French and English. Brutal exploitation is closer than colonization from there. They hung Louis Riel when he protested the deal. Everybody else kept their mouth shut and tried to get a government job.

It hasn't really ever changed. Toronto likes the Leafs and Montreal prefers the Habs. Edmonton got lucky during the Gretzky days.

 

[taxslave]

The BC large cities mayors group is now demanding the provincial government give them unrestricted access to taxpayers bank accounts.

 

[pgs]

The BC large cities mayors group is now demanding the provincial government give them unrestricted access to taxpayers bank accounts.

Of course they are .

 

[Jinentonix]

Ya know Tec, I don't really know if there's a way to rejig things to make democracy "more fair" as far as voting goes. Like Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of govt, except for all the other forms of govt.


I also have a theory about large countries like the US and Canada. I think democracy is only a temporary institute in countries the size of ours, or Russia or China for matter. And I think in Canada and the US things will become less democratic as more and more immigrants arrive. And no, I'm not blaming them or pinning anything on them. What I mean is culturally and socially our two countries will become more divergent. That means ever increasing differences in interests which means less and less satisfaction with federal election outcomes. Something that will be, and already is to an extent, exacerbated by the ever widening gap between the left and the right.
As it is there are some big cultural differences just between regions (at least in Canada), not factoring in immigration so I'm not blaming immigration so much as saying that it's just pouring fuel onto an already existing fire. Throw in some identity politics it can be a real democracy killer.


That's why I predict one of two things will happen to both the US and Canada. They will either break up into smaller nations or they'll turn into full dictatorships in order to try and keep their nation together, at least geographically.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Ya know Tec, I don't really know if there's a way to rejig things to make democracy "more fair" as far as voting goes. Like Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of govt, except for all the other forms of govt.
I also have a theory about large countries like the US and Canada. I think democracy is only a temporary institute in countries the size of ours, or Russia or China for matter. And I think in Canada and the US things will become less democratic as more and more immigrants arrive. And no, I'm not blaming them or pinning anything on them. What I mean is culturally and socially our two countries will become more divergent. That means ever increasing differences in interests which means less and less satisfaction with federal election outcomes. Something that will be, and already is to an extent, exacerbated by the ever widening gap between the left and the right.
As it is there are some big cultural differences just between regions (at least in Canada), not factoring in immigration so I'm not blaming immigration so much as saying that it's just pouring fuel onto an already existing fire. Throw in some identity politics it can be a real democracy killer.
That's why I predict one of two things will happen to both the US and Canada. They will either break up into smaller nations or they'll turn into full dictatorships in order to try and keep their nation together, at least geographically.

You could be right, though I'd say Option #2 is just a temporary stopgap to Option #1, citing the USSR and Yugoslavia as examples.

And I think the reason is that human beings are very, very good at crisis management, and crap at long-term planning. And very, very good at pissing and moaning about the here-and-now, and crap at understanding the more distant, abstract benefits of large systems. In other words, they're good at seeing that New Brunswick is getting a bigger slice of the pie, and not so good at understanding that the pie, and therefore all its pieces, would be much smaller if each province was a separate country. And there are always, always, always people ready, willing, and able to stoke divisions, parochialism, and bigotry for their own benefit.

It's entirely possible that we're moving toward a new model: looser confederations, with smaller central governments doing less, and local government doing more and taking more, like the EU. Maybe Brexit is the wave of the future. Maybe the U.S. and Canada will become federations of provinces, which ironically is what they were 100 years back.

There are upsides and downsides to both (all) models. I could certainly see a North American Union. There's certainly less cultural reason for a hard border between Canada and the U.S. than just about any other two countries in the world.

But here's the thing. Take a look at Blackshirt and his slobbering adoration of BoreJo over in England. Whether Blackshirt ends up as a citizen of the United States of Europe, or as a subject of the United Kingdom of My Street and the Next Street Over, whatever Fearless Leader takes him to that promised land ain't in it for Blackshirt. He's in it for himself.

"Life IS pain, Princess. Anybody who says different is selling something."
-- Westley, The Princess Bride

"Always cut the cards."
-- Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

 

[Serryah]

You could be right, though I'd say Option #2 is just a temporary stopgap to Option #1, citing the USSR and Yugoslavia as examples.

And I think the reason is that human beings are very, very good at crisis management, and crap at long-term planning. And very, very good at pissing and moaning about the here-and-now, and crap at understanding the more distant, abstract benefits of large systems. In other words, they're good at seeing that New Brunswick is getting a bigger slice of the pie, and not so good at understanding that the pie, and therefore all its pieces, would be much smaller if each province was a separate country. And there are always, always, always people ready, willing, and able to stoke divisions, parochialism, and bigotry for their own benefit.

It's entirely possible that we're moving toward a new model: looser confederations, with smaller central governments doing less, and local government doing more and taking more, like the EU. Maybe Brexit is the wave of the future. Maybe the U.S. and Canada will become federations of provinces, which ironically is what they were 100 years back.

There are upsides and downsides to both (all) models. I could certainly see a North American Union. There's certainly less cultural reason for a hard border between Canada and the U.S. than just about any other two countries in the world.

But here's the thing. Take a look at Blackshirt and his slobbering adoration of BoreJo over in England. Whether Blackshirt ends up as a citizen of the United States of Europe, or as a subject of the United Kingdom of My Street and the Next Street Over, whatever Fearless Leader takes him to that promised land ain't in it for Blackshirt. He's in it for himself.

"Life IS pain, Princess. Anybody who says different is selling something."
-- Westley, The Princess Bride

"Always cut the cards."
-- Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

Except now he's all po'ed because BoJo is handling Covid in a way he doesn't like. So BoJo isn't 'his guy' anymore, further proving his selfishness/self interest.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Except now he's all po'ed because BoJo is handling Covid in a way he doesn't like. So BoJo isn't 'his guy' anymore, further proving his selfishness/self interest.

Idiots gonna id.

 

[taxslave]

You could be right, though I'd say Option #2 is just a temporary stopgap to Option #1, citing the USSR and Yugoslavia as examples.
And I think the reason is that human beings are very, very good at crisis management, and crap at long-term planning. And very, very good at pissing and moaning about the here-and-now, and crap at understanding the more distant, abstract benefits of large systems. In other words, they're good at seeing that New Brunswick is getting a bigger slice of the pie, and not so good at understanding that the pie, and therefore all its pieces, would be much smaller if each province was a separate country. And there are always, always, always people ready, willing, and able to stoke divisions, parochialism, and bigotry for their own benefit.
It's entirely possible that we're moving toward a new model: looser confederations, with smaller central governments doing less, and local government doing more and taking more, like the EU. Maybe Brexit is the wave of the future. Maybe the U.S. and Canada will become federations of provinces, which ironically is what they were 100 years back.
There are upsides and downsides to both (all) models. I could certainly see a North American Union. There's certainly less cultural reason for a hard border between Canada and the U.S. than just about any other two countries in the world.
But here's the thing. Take a look at Blackshirt and his slobbering adoration of BoreJo over in England. Whether Blackshirt ends up as a citizen of the United States of Europe, or as a subject of the United Kingdom of My Street and the Next Street Over, whatever Fearless Leader takes him to that promised land ain't in it for Blackshirt. He's in it for himself.
"Life IS pain, Princess. Anybody who says different is selling something."
-- Westley, The Princess Bride
"Always cut the cards."
-- Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

You live in a city in a state not much larger than a big farm. Try living in a large rural area where you have to go three towns down the highway to get a permit from your local government and tell us again the benefits of large systems.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You live in a city in a state not much larger than a big farm. Try living in a large rural area where you have to go three towns down the highway to get a permit from your local government and tell us again the benefits of large systems.

Northeast Oklahoma do ya?

Literally ain't my first rodeo.

 

[taxslave]

That the little blip on the map kinda southeast of Colorado?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

That the little blip on the map kinda southeast of Colorado?

OOOOOOOooooooklahoma
Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain

-- Rogers and Hammerstein

Yep, sounds about right. The wind is just about the most interesting thing in OK.

 

[Ron in Regina]

It sounds almost as if you're saying "If the guy I want doesn't win, I have no representation."

We got some pretty weird results out'a our last Federal Election up this direction.

One Western vote is worth at least 1000 toronto votes.

Not in the last election....

Well, I think we should start from a base assumption of "one person, one vote." That seems intuitively obvious to me.

If you want to justify "regional diversification," I'm willing to listen, but simply claiming something is "not right" don't do it for me. Why is it "not right." If a country is, say, 85% urbanized (Australia, the most urbanized country in the world), how much extra influence should a minority of one-in-seven have?

Those are some very good questions.

Defining equal representation is the difficult question. Again it comes back to the people per sq km thing. So question for you to ponder. What does it tell you when the majority federal government is completely shut out of one province when there are only 11 and a couple of territories? And the population in one city in Ontario is about double that of an entire province.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

We got some pretty weird results out'a our last Federal Election up this direction.

Not even in the same ballpark as what WE got!

 

[Ron in Regina]

Not even in the same ballpark as what WE got!

I'd offer you a trade, but neither nation wants what the other has I'm fairly sure.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'd offer you a trade, but neither nation wants what the other has I'm fairly sure.

Yeah, I'll stick with the devil we know.

I'm sure we have each other's sympathy, but I'm also sure we're both saying "you're on your own."

Will Rogers said "In the electoral process, each party picks the worst man it can find for the job, then the people elect the worse of the two."

And y'all have, what, five or so?

 

[taxslave]

Yeah, I'll stick with the devil we know.
I'm sure we have each other's sympathy, but I'm also sure we're both saying "you're on your own."
Will Rogers said "In the electoral process, each party picks the worst man it can find for the job, then the people elect the worse of the two."
And y'all have, what, five or so?

Not a bad way of describing it. Except for when Harper was PM we had some long stretches of hold your nose and vote the least odoriferous. I'm starting to think it is because we are fixated on parties rather than local representation. Of course the party machines and the compliant media push this bastardization of our electoral system.

 

[petros]

Ya know Tec, I don't really know if there's a way to rejig things to make democracy "more fair" as far as voting goes. Like Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of govt, except for all the other forms of govt.
I also have a theory about large countries like the US and Canada. I think democracy is only a temporary institute in countries the size of ours, or Russia or China for matter. And I think in Canada and the US things will become less democratic as more and more immigrants arrive. And no, I'm not blaming them or pinning anything on them. What I mean is culturally and socially our two countries will become more divergent. That means ever increasing differences in interests which means less and less satisfaction with federal election outcomes. Something that will be, and already is to an extent, exacerbated by the ever widening gap between the left and the right.
As it is there are some big cultural differences just between regions (at least in Canada), not factoring in immigration so I'm not blaming immigration so much as saying that it's just pouring fuel onto an already existing fire. Throw in some identity politics it can be a real democracy killer.
That's why I predict one of two things will happen to both the US and Canada. They will either break up into smaller nations or they'll turn into full dictatorships in order to try and keep their nation together, at least geographically.

Feds have been nibbling away at what was the realm of the Provinces since day one.

Returning to where we once were is the best option.

 

[bob the dog]

Not a bad way of describing it. Except for when Harper was PM we had some long stretches of hold your nose and vote the least odoriferous. I'm starting to think it is because we are fixated on parties rather than local representation. Of course the party machines and the compliant media push this bastardization of our electoral system.

Been a long time since an election was won on anything other than the incumbent party being voted out. The whole thing is a house of cards and it is getting windy.

Politicians need to show some leadership and they can start with the golden pensions. If 71 is the age to kick in the annuity then 71 should be the age that private pensions no longer are mandatory to be paid out. Company option to pay or not after that but the retired government employees are kicked over to CPP and OAP like the rest of us. That goes for Adrienne Clarkson, Michelle Jean, the puch in there now, and the rest of them.

No disrespect to John Turner and bless his service to the country but the facts remain he was in poor health for the past few years. No idea what his package was worth but he wasn't spending any of it. Gravy for the estate and an unnecessary expense to Canadian tax payers.

They are already in the top 1% of earners in the country so if after years of earning a top income it should be no problem to fund the golden years. Of course everyone needs to leave $1,000,000,000 to the next generation.

No point yelling about the barn door when the cow is on the loose.

 

[taxslave]

Problem 1 is no politician that vowed to do what is best for the country(province) would ever get elected. The population has been silver spoon fed since the 50s and now KNOW they are entitled to lots for nothing.