A Rational Conversation about Climate Change

[Mowich]

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.

To be fair, one doesn't have to be a denier or a anti-warmer to point out the fallacies apparent in the Green lobbies continuing support for projects in countries with no environmental standards and where in some cases, children are being employed to extract whatever mineral is needed for the Green push. Honesty on both sides of the issue is always welcome but not always available.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You're right. Fully understandable and should be fully acceptable to protest against a form of extraction that has less of an impact environmentally than another. How dare we question the motives of those individuals or groups.

Their motives are clear and pure.

Their brains? Not so much. But if you expect "movements" to be rational, prepare for a life of disappointments.

 

[gerryh]

Their motives are clear and pure.
Their brains? Not so much. But if you expect "movements" to be rational, prepare for a life of disappointments.

Where did I say that I expected them to be rational? Just because they are irrational does not mean I can't point out that irrationality.

 

[Jinentonix]

To be fair, it seems like anti-warmers (is that a thing? I'm trying to avoid using "deniers" because that's become a buzzword) don't give a shit about the lithium mines either, except as a stick to beat the anti-fracking people with.

While some of us have a much better grasp of reality.
It's not just lithium. Mining for silver, copper, gold, iron ore, coal, and all the rare earth metals that will be needed to achieve the impossible goal of carbon neutral by 2050 and beyond will need to be vastly increased. Unless we figure out how to mine asteroids by then, we ain't gonna make it.


It has nothing to do with being a "denier" and everything to do with cold, hard reality. The numbers simply don't work out and they never will, unless...


There's two choices. You can make the decision to permanently reduce our consumption of ALL resources and teach our kids conservation as well, or you can just kill yourself now to save the planet. Because I'm telling you right now, someone is going to come up with a solution that NOBODY is going to like, assuming we even find out about it before it's too late. Think "Children of Men" or "Logan's Run" kind of near future.

 

[NZDoug]

Cannibalism is the only solution.
Stay within your own island.

 

[DaSleeper]

Do like codex keeps trying to do in the Macgyver series ....kill half the population of earth so that the other half may live better....


Simple , non?

 

[taxslave]

Just as the NAACP has done many wonderful things for black people, but pretty much nothing for non-black people.
It's fair to point out that the alternatives to oil and IC engines also have environmental impacts. That's a perfectly valid argument in favor of continuing exploitation of the oil sands. It's not fair to imply (or flatly state) that it's wrong to care less about lithium mines.
You can't expect someone to fight every battle.

I'll go along with that but one cannot protest oil and shill for solar at the same time. There are places where solar power has been a great lift for the population but it will not replace, or even put a dent in the need for oil and gas in my lifetime. There are also a lot of fossil fuel protesters tha end up pushing for nuclear instead. IMHO nuclear is the worst power source imaginable.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

While some of us have a much better grasp of reality.
It's not just lithium. Mining for silver, copper, gold, iron ore, coal, and all the rare earth metals that will be needed to achieve the impossible goal of carbon neutral by 2050 and beyond will need to be vastly increased. Unless we figure out how to mine asteroids by then, we ain't gonna make it.
It has nothing to do with being a "denier" and everything to do with cold, hard reality. The numbers simply don't work out and they never will, unless...
There's two choices. You can make the decision to permanently reduce our consumption of ALL resources and teach our kids conservation as well, or you can just kill yourself now to save the planet. Because I'm telling you right now, someone is going to come up with a solution that NOBODY is going to like, assuming we even find out about it before it's too late. Think "Children of Men" or "Logan's Run" kind of near future.

There's two choices. You can make the decision to never have more'n what we have now, or we can breed for bigger, stronger horses.

-- Mr. Jin N. Tonics, 1885.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'll go along with that but one cannot protest oil and shill for solar at the same time. There are places where solar power has been a great lift for the population but it will not replace, or even put a dent in the need for oil and gas in my lifetime. There are also a lot of fossil fuel protesters tha end up pushing for nuclear instead. IMHO nuclear is the worst power source imaginable.

Yes, one can.

They'll never have a worldwide, interconnected computer system that lets you make your categorical proclamations to people in other countries in your lifetime. That's pure science fiction.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

There are 2 1/2 people on this board who recognize the obvious fact that energy always will be, as it always has been, provided by a mix of sources and techniques. Mowich, Cap'n Morgan when he's sober, and me.

Keep saying it, tax, and you may push the number up to 3.

And there's nothing wrong with nuclear. No. . . check that. There's plenty wrong with nuclear, but there's nothing wrong with nuclear as an energy source. Research, engineering, and planning are the solution to nuclear's problems (and all our other problems).

 

[petros]

From the short video in the LINK above, my favourite quote goes something like this. "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

ScreenShot from the above video link. This has always disturbed me on the whole Climate Changing/Warming Debate.

If "Climate Science®" had the liabilities of the real Sciences we'd see a shitload of trials and incarcerations.

 

[petros]

And there's nothing wrong with nuclear. No. . . check that. There's plenty wrong with nuclear, but there's nothing wrong with nuclear as an energy source. Research, engineering, and planning are the solution to nuclear's problems (and all our other problems).

If the climate doomsday scenarios were true, reactors would be popping up like mushrooms on a rotting log.

It's more than just a source for electricity, the wasted heat energy could be utilized to heat the buildings in
Northern cities or even industrial processors.

That is a huge bite out of natural gas usage.

 

[captain morgan]

If "Climate Science®" had the liabilities of the real Sciences we'd see a shitload of trials and incarcerations.

Will never happen as gvt would be equally as liable

 

[Avro52]

Still waiting for the rational part of this thread.

 

[petros]

You didnt earn that.

What are you expecting? An altar to go along with the belief and faith? Everything else is in place right down to the iconography.

 

[Avro52]

Still nothing rational.

Post 12 comes close though.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

If the climate doomsday scenarios were true, reactors would be popping up like mushrooms on a rotting log.

You underestimate the power of denial.

 

[Avro52]

You underestimate the power of denial.

I’ve got one.

We had a freakish snow fall this morning therefore global warming is a hoax, oh and Obama bought a house that will be under water in 1200 years so hoax x two.

 

[DaSleeper]

Hey you guys in Toronto area::
My daughter works for for a major commercial finance company in Toronto, and since doing business with clients is done over the phone, she is able to work from home.
I got a better internet provider yesterday with better speeds so she could work from here since corona-virus here is non existent!
Good idea or bad idea?
We follow established Provincial protocols here also, but people are more relaxed when they converse in line-ups at the stores

 

[Cliffy]

The Earth Is Just as Alive as You Are


Scientists once ridiculed the idea of a living planet. Not anymore.


If Earth breathes, sweats and quakes — if it births zillions of organisms that ceaselessly devour, transfigure and replenish its air, water and rock — and if those creatures and their physical environments evolve in tandem, then why shouldn’t we think of our planet as alive?


Humans are the brain — the consciousness — of the planet. We are Earth made aware of itself. Viewed this way, our ecological responsibility could not be clearer. By fuming greenhouse gases, we have not simply changed the climate; we have critically wounded a global life form and severely disrupted its biological rhythms. No other member of this living assembly has our privileged perspective. No one else can see the sinews and vessels of our planetary body. Only we can choose to help keep Earth alive.


Gaia’s legacy can help us fulfill this responsibility. We can learn to recognize and amplify the planet’s innate climate-stabilizing processes. Earth has its own methods for storing carbon: A complex chain of chemical reactions involving plants, plankton and shellfish can lock atmospheric carbon in limestone. In addition to reducing carbon emissions, many Earth system scientists think we should study how to augment this natural sequestration and related processes.


In recent years the Amazon rain forest has endured unusually intense and frequent droughts, which some scientists have linked o deforestation and forest fires. It would be easy to compartmentalize these ecological shifts as local tragedies, but that detachment is an illusion. Seen through the lens of Gaia, the Amazon’s plight is the draining of our communal veins and arteries. We must learn to feel its thirst viscerally. “We are a part of this Earth and we cannot therefore consider our affairs in isolation,” Dr. Lovelock wrote. “We are so tied to the Earth that its chills or fevers are our chills and fevers also.”



More: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/amazon-earth-rain-forest-environment.html