Could the Irish abortion referendum be the third big defeat for the liberals?

Blackleaf

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Like in the EU in/out referendum in the UK, the liberals could today be defeated in another referendum, this time in the UK's closest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland.

Voters today will vote 'Yes' or 'No' on a decision to replace the eighth amendment with a new article in Ireland's constitution allowing politicians to bring in 'the regulation of termination of pregnancy'.

The government here says this will enable them to pass a law permitting abortions under any circumstance up to the 12th week of pregnancy, and for health reasons thereafter. (Britain, by contrast, allows abortion on any grounds until 24 weeks.)

When this plan was first announced last year, it seemed likely to pass by a wide margin.

A Yes vote, after all, was endorsed by the leaders of all three major parties: Mr Varadkar of centre-Right Fine Gael; Micheal Martin of the more Left-wing Fianna Fail; and Sinn Fein's Mary Lou McDonald.

At Christmas, the Yes side had a 34-point lead in opinion polls, and bookmakers put their chances of success at more than ten to one on, the equivalent of over 90 per cent. Yet in recent weeks, a series of combative TV debates has tipped the momentum back towards the No campaign.

After Brexit and Trump, this could be the liberals' third big defeat in recent years...


Abortion civil war: GUY ADAMS asks if Ireland's referendum could be the next big defeat for liberals after Brexit and Trump

Ireland will vote tomorrow in a highly contentious referendum on abortion
Ballot has split the country as polls show result will depend on undecided voters
Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar made final pitch to repeal anti-abortion laws


By Guy Adams for the Daily Mail
25 May 2018



For his sermon on Sunday, Father Martin McVeigh told parishioners in the scenic Irish fishing village of Clogherhead that he'd like to talk politics.

Specifically, the elderly priest wanted to discuss a high-profile referendum battle that will culminate today when Ireland votes on the highly emotive subject of abortion.

In our ever more secular age, the Republic of Ireland has remained a largely Catholic nation, with priests such as Father McVeigh still holding a grip on the hearts, minds and voting habits of their communities.

But times are changing. Even before his sermon was properly under way, several women walked out of the church.

Then, as Father McVeigh told congregants he expected them to vote against today's ballot proposal to end Ireland's longstanding ban on abortion, a local man called Keith Delaney leapt to his feet and declared: 'I'm not listening to this!'


Emotive: Yes campaigners are pictured in Ireland in the lead up to today's referendum

One church-goer described the scene: 'Keith left with his eight-year-old daughter. After that, the priest responded with graphic remarks about doctors killing babies with tiny hands and feet.

'But that just encouraged more people to leave. It was a family service, and you don't want your kids to hear that sort of thing, do you?'

Soon, the trickle leaving St Michael's Church had become a flood and Father McVeigh decided to declare defeat — 'He stopped about two minutes later and said 'Mass is over, go in peace' — by which time only around one-third of his 120-strong congregation remained.

The walkout made headlines in the Irish press this week, providing the latest vivid example of the highly emotive and deeply divisive political battle which has been played out in towns and villages across the land over recent months.

Tour the Emerald Isle today and you'll struggle to find a single lamppost that isn't festooned by campaign posters.

Some are covered with slogans about women's rights; others contain images of dead infants captioned 'Do not kill' and 'Stop the slaughter of babies for body parts'.

In the countryside, where voters traditionally are more conservative, farmers have used ploughs to write huge anti-abortion messages into their fields.


No campaigners are calling on Irish voters to keep the eighth amendment of the republic, which gives equal rights to women and their unborn children

In metropolitan areas and on urban streets, where the electorate take a more liberal view on social issues, teams of pamphleteers from both sides sometimes outnumber shoppers. At times, hostility is spilling over.

Outside the Dail, Ireland's Parliament in Dublin, evangelical Catholics fingering their rosary beads have been chanting 'Jesus, protect and save the unborn' while pro-choice opponents try to shout them down.

Next to the iconic Georgian edifice that is Dublin's General Post Office — the birthplace of 1916's Easter Uprising against British rule, which led to Ireland's independence a few years later — eggs have been thrown and tables full of leaflets upended.

Visiting this symbolic location yesterday, I witnessed a shouting match between two elderly women brandishing plastic models of human embryos in various stages of development and a younger woman carrying a gay rights flag.

The pair were were watched by crowds of surprisingly young campaigners — both pro and anti-abortion.

Behind such scenes lies a strange contradiction.

On the one hand, Ireland has always been regarded as one of Europe's last bastions of social conservatism.

Same-sex sexual activity was only decriminalised here in 1993, and divorce permitted in 1995.

Each weekend, one in three citizens goes to Mass — a figure roughly ten times greater per capita of population than in the UK.

Yet recent years have also seen this relatively young country embrace trendy progressive policies at a breakneck pace. In 2004, for example, Ireland became the first country in the world to enact a smoking ban.


Pro-choice activists are pictured dressed as the Handmaid's Tale characters in Dublin yesterday

In 2015, against the Catholic Church's advice, voters agreed by a margin of two to one to introduce gay marriage.

And last year, Ireland installed as Prime Minister one Leo Varadkar, a gay former GP whose father was an Indian immigrant.

Against this shifting backdrop, today's referendum concerns a straightforward question: should Ireland scrap the eighth amendment to its constitution, which stipulates that an unborn child has the same right to life as its mother?

This law, one of the most stringent in the western world, effectively outlaws all terminations, even in cases of rape and incest, and even where an embryo is diagnosed with a terminal illness that means it will be stillborn.

Only where the mother's life is in 'real and substantial' danger as a result of the pregnancy can abortion be considered.

Until 1992, Ireland even forbade Irish women from travelling overseas to undergo an abortion.

Since that particular rule was lifted (courtesy of a different referendum), around 170,000 women have come to Britain for the procedure, where it was legalised in 1967.


Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar (pictured) is campaigning to legal abortion in the vote

Roughly 3,000 Irish women are treated in UK hospitals and clinics each year, paying between £3,000 and £4,000 for their terminations.

Voters today will vote 'Yes' or 'No' on a decision to replace the eighth amendment with a new article in Ireland's constitution allowing politicians to bring in 'the regulation of termination of pregnancy'.

The government here says this will enable them to pass a law permitting abortions under any circumstance up to the 12th week of pregnancy, and for health reasons thereafter. (Britain, by contrast, allows abortion on any grounds until 24 weeks.)

When this plan was first announced last year, it seemed likely to pass by a wide margin.

A Yes vote, after all, was endorsed by the leaders of all three major parties: Mr Varadkar of centre-Right Fine Gael; Micheal Martin of the more Left-wing Fianna Fail; and Sinn Fein's Mary Lou McDonald.

The Establishment camp also has the backing of trade unions and most media outlets, along with a host of celebrities, from actors such as Peaky Blinders' Cillian Murphy and Saoirse Ronan, who stars in the film Chesil Beach, to author Marian Keyes, pop band U2 and several members of the Six Nations-winning rugby team.

Well organised Yes canvassers have also persuaded around 125,000 people who have never voted before to register to vote.

Many are 18-24 year olds, and polls show that 67 per cent of them support the repeal of the eighth amendment.

While the No side boasts the support of the Church, its ability to dictate to the public on moral issues has been seriously eroded in recent years due to a number of high-profile scandals.

Indeed, the aforementioned Father McVeigh was at the centre of one such incident in 2012, when gay pornography — seemingly from his laptop — appeared on a projector while he was lecturing children at a local school.

'Every time I've heard a priest or bishop coming out with an opinion in public, I think it's been good news for our side,' Senator Catherine Noon, a leading figure in the Yes campaign told me this week. 'Things have changed. We are now a liberal progressive society.'

At Christmas, the Yes side had a 34-point lead in opinion polls, and bookmakers put their chances of success at more than ten to one on, the equivalent of over 90 per cent. Yet in recent weeks, a series of combative TV debates has tipped the momentum back towards the No campaign.

The most recent polls, published this week, have support for Yes at around 50 per cent, with No at between 25 and 30, and the rest 'undecided'.

Bookmakers have duly trimmed the odds of a No victory to around one in six, while some commentators are talking up the chances of a Brexit-style populist surprise, in which a silent majority from rural areas ignore metropolitan convention to deliver a stunning rebuke to the political class.

All of which perhaps explains the febrile mood I found among supporters of both sides.

With polls narrowing, many Yes supporters who live overseas are travelling back to Ireland to vote, since they are not allowed postal ballots.

While some are financing the trip themselves, others are having their travel costs paid by student unions firmly in the Yes camp.

Siobhan Gilroy, 33, told me how she flew home from Brisbane, saying: 'It's mad, when you think of the expense — but when you look at what our laws make other women go through, it's nothing.'

At a press conference for the Yes campaign, reporters heard from a Dublin woman called Elaine Bedford, whose 25-year-old daughter became pregnant unexpectedly last year and — like hundreds of other Irish women in recent years — bought abortion pills illegally via the internet.

'It was terrifying,' she said. 'I put her to bed and was bringing in hot water bottles. My daughter was in agony and bleeding, and as she was losing consciousness, I could not even leave her to phone the doctors. The hell continued for three days.'

In an effort to sway undecided voters (and avoid upsetting pro-life voters in their constituencies), many Yes-supporting politicians are citing such cases as evidence that, in the internet era, the current law is impractical.

Somewhat cynically, they describe themselves as instinctively 'pro-life', but pragmatic.

The Yes camp has also been making hay with a number of high-profile tragedies, most notably that of Savita Halappanavar, a 31-year-old dentist who was admitted to hospital in Galway in 2012, when she was 17 weeks pregnant.

Doctors told her she was miscarrying but, even though she was in severe pain, refused requests to help terminate the pregnancy because they could still detect a foetal heartbeat.

At one point, her husband was told 'this is a Catholic country'. Eventually, Savita contracted septicaemia and died.

Her father, Andanappa Yalagi, recently appeared in a Yes campaign video, saying: 'The younger daughters of Ireland should not have the same fate as Savita… she had a very long life to lead, but it was cut down mercilessly, dead.'

Savita, whose image adorns a number of campaign posters, is one of a number of women whose circumstances have sparked fierce controversy over the years.

Others include a girl known only as 'X', a teenage rape victim barred from travelling to the UK for an abortion in the early Nineties; and 'P', a woman declared brain dead when 15 weeks pregnant but kept alive on life support against the wishes of her family because her foetus still had a heartbeat.

The No side, meanwhile, argues that difficult cases such as these should not be used as a basis for legal change — saying bad cases will make bad law, and that introducing what it calls 'abortion on demand' will open proverbial floodgates.

This message has reportedly found particular traction among working class voters, and some internal polls have suggested that the No side may even end up with a two per cent lead should turnout prove lower than expected.

At a press event for the 'Save The 8th' campaign group, speakers repeatedly warned voters of turning Ireland into 'another United Kingdom' where there are around 190,000 terminations each year, meaning 'one in five pregnancies ends in abortion' and where '90 per cent of babies with Down Syndrome are aborted'.

These are, indeed, eye-opening statistics. And whatever the outcome today, neither side is going to take things lying down.

The No camp is already alleging widespread voter fraud, arguing that thousands of people have been illegally signed up to vote.

The Yes side, meanwhile, is alleging illegal interference from wealthy U.S. evangelical Christians, who are suspected of using social media to advance their case (to which end both Facebook and Google recently banned campaign advertisements).

Like many a contentious referendum, it now seems that today's vote may end up dividing a nation it was supposed to unite.

Read more: GUY ADAMS: Could Ireland abortion vote be next defeat for liberals? | Daily Mail Online
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coldstream

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It looks like a massive defeat for the forces of Life in the once conservative and devoutly Catholic state. Last count had it at 66.4% for abortion. A mere third voted for protection of the child.

The FemiNazis have had a great 'victory'. Ireland in its Christian history, beginnning with Sts. Patrick and Columba, was a refuge and redoubt of Light in the Dark Ages. Its monastic culture kept alive the great texts of theology and Christian practice as the darkness engulfed reason and faith throughout Europe.

The Culture of Death now has illimitable dominion in the West. Satan rules. Christ has been driven into the caves and catacombs. I doubt that it has been in such a bleak state since the early Roman persecutions.

And like Rome it will consume itself in an orgy of blood and violence. The holocaust of the womb will move inexorably out into society in general and murder all who are defenseless and 'inconvenient'. And then the protagonists will turn of each other.
 
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White_Unifier

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Why not just recognize that human life begins at conception? That would technically not criminalize abortion when medically necessary such as to save a mother's life in a situation where the baby would surely die either way.
 

Curious Cdn

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It looks like a massive defeat for the forces of Life in the once conservative and devoutly Catholic state. Last count had it at 66.4% for abortion. A mere third voted for protection of the child.

The FemiNazis have had a great 'victory'. Ireland in its Christian history, beginnning with Sts. Patrick and Columba, was a refuge and redoubt of Light in the Dark Ages. Its monastic culture kept alive the great texts of theology and Christian practice as the darkness engulfed reason and faith throughout Europe.

The Culture of Death now has illimitable dominion in the West. Satan rules. Christ has been driven into the caves and catacombs. I doubt that it has been in such a bleak state since the early Roman persecutions.

And like Rome it will consume itself in an orgy of blood and violence. The holocaust of the womb will move inexorably out into society in general and murder all who are defenseless and 'inconvenient'. And then the protagonists will turn of each other.

Christ was curiously silent on the subject of abortion. Dead quiet about homosexuality and gun ownership, too. Got a pet cause? Project it unto Jesus.

Jesus wouldn't have liked that sort of thing, most likely.
 

DaSleeper

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Christ was curiously silent on the subject of abortion. Dead quiet about homosexuality and gun ownership, too. Got a pet cause? Project it unto Jesus.

Jesus wouldn't have liked that sort of thing, most likely.
Now you're gonna have Cliffy scouring Facebook for an appropriate meme tsk! tsk!
 

Tecumsehsbones

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The Irish have been under the "jackboot" (jacksandal?) of the Roman church for much longer than most. They've dropped Catholicism like it's a live grenade (see: Revolution, Quiet, Quebec)

I know, I've been there. Like most European countries, Sunday morning Mass looks like a geriatric ward.
 

Curious Cdn

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I know, I've been there. Like most European countries, Sunday morning Mass looks like a geriatric ward.

...as it is in Quebec. The most pathetic part are the little clusters of ancient and remaining nuns in convents that used to have hundreds and are now down to eight ... ten. They gave their entire lives to a church that has pretty much died a death and left them with nothing.
 

taxslave

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Why not just recognize that human life begins at conception? That would technically not criminalize abortion when medically necessary such as to save a mother's life in a situation where the baby would surely die either way.

Because life begins at birth.

It looks like a massive defeat for the forces of Life in the once conservative and devoutly Catholic state. Last count had it at 66.4% for abortion. A mere third voted for protection of the child.

The FemiNazis have had a great 'victory'. Ireland in its Christian history, beginnning with Sts. Patrick and Columba, was a refuge and redoubt of Light in the Dark Ages. Its monastic culture kept alive the great texts of theology and Christian practice as the darkness engulfed reason and faith throughout Europe.

The Culture of Death now has illimitable dominion in the West. Satan rules. Christ has been driven into the caves and catacombs. I doubt that it has been in such a bleak state since the early Roman persecutions.

And like Rome it will consume itself in an orgy of blood and violence. The holocaust of the womb will move inexorably out into society in general and murder all who are defenseless and 'inconvenient'. And then the protagonists will turn of each other.

Looks like rights won over religious dogma. Again.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Why not just recognize that human life begins at conception? That would technically not criminalize abortion when medically necessary such as to save a mother's life in a situation where the baby would surely die either way.

Once again, you demonstrate a truly impressive ignorance of the law.
 

Blackleaf

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It looks like a massive defeat for the forces of Life in the once conservative and devoutly Catholic state. Last count had it at 66.4% for abortion. A mere third voted for protection of the child.

The FemiNazis have had a great 'victory'. Ireland in its Christian history, beginnning with Sts. Patrick and Columba, was a refuge and redoubt of Light in the Dark Ages. Its monastic culture kept alive the great texts of theology and Christian practice as the darkness engulfed reason and faith throughout Europe.

The Culture of Death now has illimitable dominion in the West. Satan rules. Christ has been driven into the caves and catacombs. I doubt that it has been in such a bleak state since the early Roman persecutions.

And like Rome it will consume itself in an orgy of blood and violence. The holocaust of the womb will move inexorably out into society in general and murder all who are defenseless and 'inconvenient'. And then the protagonists will turn of each other.

Ireland is starting to become as cringily leftie liberal as much of the rest of the Western world.

The Irish have been under the "jackboot" (jacksandal?) of the Roman church for much longer than most. They've dropped Catholicism like it's a live grenade (see: Revolution, Quiet, Quebec)

Henry VIII, King of Ireland, wasn't quite as succesful in taking Ireland out from under the grip of the Vatican as he was with the rest of the British Isles.
 

Danbones

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Cardinal George Pell trial a 'turning point', says survivors' rights group
Question in Rome is now whether Pope Francis is prepared to take tougher action against accused priests

A survivors’ rights group has hailed as a “turning point” an Australian magistrate’s ruling that Cardinal George Pell, one of the most senior officials in the Vatican, will stand trial on historical sexual offence charges.

“[The] decision today … marks a turning point in the global abuse crisis in the Catholic church,” said a statement by BishopAccountability.org, which tracks cases of alleged abuse. “The Australian government has put the Catholic church on equal footing with other institutions, and treated its leaders as fellow citizens.”
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...urch-abuse-welcomed-by-survivors-rights-group

Abortion cuts into their trade good supply.
 

Blackleaf

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The only county which voted No was Donegal, up in the north west of the country bordering the UK.

Irish abortion referendum: Donegal rejects repeal - BBC News



Coffee House

Ireland’s referendum shows that some people only like democracy when it gives them what they want


Brendan O'Neill





Image: PAUL FAITH/AFP/Getty Images

Brendan O'Neill
26 May 2018
The Spectator

So referendums are good now? The turnaround has been astonishing. The very people who have spent the best part of two years in moral meltdown at the fact that Britons were given a referendum on membership of the EU are now beside themselves with joy over the abortion referendum in Ireland.

‘You know who loved referendums? HITLER’, they said endlessly about the EU referendum, seeming to suffer from a bad bout of the Ken Livingstone Hitler Tourette’s. Yet now they’ve magically forgotten that all referendums are basically acts of fascism and are hailing the Irish people’s mass vote for the right of women to secure an abortion as a wonderful moment in democracy. Anyone would think they only like democracy when it delivers things they agree with and go back to despising it when it doesn’t…

Don’t get me wrong: I am over the moon about the Irish referendum result. I write this from Ireland, while wearing my Repeal sweatshirt, before heading off for celebratory drinks later this evening.

I am pro-choice. I think sovereignty over oneself, over one’s own body and mind, as the great Brit John Stuart Mill put it, is an essential enlightenment ideal, perhaps the essential enlightenment ideal. It fills me with Irish pride that the Irish have voted in staggering numbers for the right of women to end unwanted pregnancies — estimates say that 68 or 69 percent of voters said Yes to repealing the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution that forbade all terminations except when the pregnancy directly threatened the life of the woman. I’m as proud as I was when the Irish voted against the Lisbon Treaty, and by extension the entire bureaucratic machine in Brussels, in a referendum in 2008.

And there’s the thing: consider how that referendum revolt against Brussels 10 years ago was talked about in comparison with how Friday’s referendum revolt against the Eighth Amendment is being talked about. When they rejected Lisbon, Irish voters were mocked and mauled by both their own political elites and EU technocrats. They were branded ungrateful, thick, probably a bit xenophobic. And they were of course made to vote again — the dreaded Second Referendum that the part-time defenders of democracy always demand when things don’t go their way. See Brexit.

Speaking of Brexit: the difference between the UK liberal media’s treatment of the massive vote for abortion rights in Ireland and the massive vote for Brexit in Britain (17.4m votes, the most for anything in British history, as if you needed reminding) is staggering, if also depressingly unsurprising. In their flighty view, Brexit was the work of plebs brainwashed by a bus, while the the repeal of the Eighth was the work of an enlightened people. Brexit is scary and dangerous and therefore we should call it off; the repeal of the Eighth is brilliant and wonderful and therefore we should see it through. Brexit confirmed democracy is a terrible idea; the repeal of the Eighth shows it is a great idea. And on it goes, hypocrisy upon hypocrisy, anti-democratic wailing one minute, pro-democracy weeping the next. They support democracy, not in principle, but only if it gives them what they want.

And just imagine if anyone tried to do to the Irish referendum result what an army of powerful politicians, legal teams, lords and the filthy rich have tried to do to Brexit: overturn it. There would be outrage. I expect these part-time democrats would even take to the streets. They would brand any usurping of the repeal vote as an assault on democratic rights, women’s rights and no doubt civilisation itself. Yet when Brexiteers venture that the various elitist efforts to do in or dilute the thing millions and millions of us voted for is a bit of an outrage, we’re told we are being shrill and mad and probably a little alt-right. Everyone they don’t like is ‘alt-right’.

The double standards are amazing. Comment-worthy levels of amazing. It all speaks to a quite terrifying attitude to democracy from on high these days, which basically says: if you little people vote for things we like, you can have them; but if you vote for things we don’t like — for an end to the Lisbon Treaty, say, or exit from the EU — you can’t have them. You’ll be made to vote again, you’ll be shut down, you’ll be called Hitler. The legitimacy of democracy is increasingly being determined by the whims and prejudices of small groups of powerful, tetchy people. They should try believing in democracy for real, full-time. Democracy is democracy, repeal is repeal, leave is leave: that’s my view. Either the people get to determine the destiny of their nation, or they don’t.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...-democracy-when-it-gives-them-what-they-want/
 
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Blackleaf

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Or y'all could lick each other's hurt butts till y'all feel better.

I don't see why there shouldn't be a second referendum. After all, I don't like the result. And it wouldn't be unprecedented: after the Irish voted against the EU Constitution (Lisbon Treaty) about ten years or so ago the EU lapdog Irish Government just made them vote again until they voted the right way. So there would be nothing unusual in holding another abortion referendum to try and ensure the people vote the right way next time. After all, people can change their minds.