Should entrapment ever be an excuse?

Machjo

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To me, if a person breaks the law, entrapped or not, he should pay the price.

Of course we can make entrapment illegal and maybe fine or imprison a police officer that does so, or demote or fire him, or a combination of these. Fine.

But as for the guilty party, entrapped or not, he still broke the law and so should be punished too.

Your thoughts on this?
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Why Does the FBI Have to Manufacture its Own Plots if Terrorism and ISIS Are Such Grave Threats?
https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-terrorism-isis-grave-threats/
Fake terror plots, paid informants: the tactics of FBI 'entrapment' questioned
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots
rrriight
the fbi asks someone to help catch terrorists, and then gives the guy a real bomb instead of the fake one to make him a patsy to a fake terror plot...
The guy catches on and turns the fake terrorists in and they get nailed...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/02/26/wtc93/

So, you're saying the good guy should go to jail?

no YOU are
 

Remington1

Council Member
Jan 30, 2016
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Entrapment leads to all sorts of fabrications (by the suspect) and power trips (cops). Feeble minds tend to glorify themselves in the face of someone they think is superior to them, which the undercover cops portray themselves in stings, so in my opinion, no - entrapment is a total fraud, so how can is be right?
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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The ones put on trial should be the ones doing the manipulation. That is pretty close to 'gross criminal misconduct/negligence'.
 

Machjo

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The ones put on trial should be the ones doing the manipulation. That is pretty close to 'gross criminal misconduct/negligence'.


I agree. Hypothetical scenario. A cop portraying himself as a minor online. He hooks onto an adult, and nags him to agree to sex. The adult repeatedly says no, but the cop keeps nagging him for sex. The man eventually agrees, knock knock on the door, arrest, goes to court.

My opinion. The cop definitely crossed the line and so should be punished somehow. Fine, imprisonment, demotion, firing, or some combination of these.

However, the man still broke the law by agreeing to have sex with a minor. Of course we could consider mitigating circumstances and maybe just fine him rather than imprison him. But the idea that he should receive no punishment just because he was entrapped is something I cannot accept. He still broke the law and prsents a danger to minors. At the very least, a criminal record and a significant fine.

Inshort, two wrongs don't make right, so both the cop and the person he arrested should be punished.
 

tay

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May 20, 2012
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To me, if a person breaks the law, entrapped or not, he should pay the price.

Of course we can make entrapment illegal and maybe fine or imprison a police officer that does so, or demote or fire him, or a combination of these. Fine.

But as for the guilty party, entrapped or not, he still broke the law and so should be punished too.

Your thoughts on this?

Are you referring to this story.?

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/146175-creep-catchers-asset-detriment.html?highlight=rcmp

and

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/n...ested-soliciting-underage.html?highlight=rcmp
 

Curious Cdn

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Feb 22, 2015
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So, if an undercover cop hands you a lit joint, you take it from him and he then arrests you, it's okay with you because you broke the law?
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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To me, if a person breaks the law, entrapped or not, he should pay the price.

Of course we can make entrapment illegal and maybe fine or imprison a police officer that does so, or demote or fire him, or a combination of these. Fine.

But as for the guilty party, entrapped or not, he still broke the law and so should be punished too.

Your thoughts on this?




Maybe in Canada but not in the States as this device is used all too often on minorities.


Many years ago some unemployed black guy was entrapped by police into believing that he was being hired on a temporary basis to move office and business furnishings. He got paid in cash for hauling stuff onto a truck and moving it to a designated area. He was about to go home when he was arrested for trespassing and theft of property that wasn't his. It is not likely that cops would do that to a college educated white suburbanite.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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Proven entrapment is and should be grounds for defense or acquittal, but what exactly accounts for entrapment is often debated and never seems absolute. If police especially, or an individual specifically counsels someone else to commit an indictable offense for the purpose of "catching them in the act", basically trying to prove actus reus, the criminal act, without mens rea, criminal intent, that is entrapment. On the other hand, if police or anyone is contacted, i.e. solicited by a person or party to commit an indictable act, and that person solicited, either a citizen or the police themselves report it, it is not entrapment as the person doing the soliciting has themself demonstrated mens rea whether or not the act is actually carried out. But police do play dirty tricks, of that there is no doubt.


Dropping the bait in the water and seeing if a creep bites is a common tool used by police, and I don't totally disagree with it, but it is not always a creep that bites. That is where we can fall into a grey area. Police have also counselled suspected criminals to commit criminal acts in what are known as "Mr. Big" stings and pushing the boundaries of legality. We are supposed to have a criminal justice system that has to prove mens rea beyond a reasonable doubt, but in our "progressive" society, and judicial system, even the appearance of deviancy against the orthodoxy will swing the anvil of burden of proof to the accused.


If anything, I think our entrapment laws need to be strengthened, make the police do their jobs properly and catch the real bad guys.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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To me, if a person breaks the law, entrapped or not, he should pay the price.

Of course we can make entrapment illegal and maybe fine or imprison a police officer that does so, or demote or fire him, or a combination of these. Fine.

But as for the guilty party, entrapped or not, he still broke the law and so should be punished too.

Your thoughts on this?


While I can see some logic in it you'd better be prepared to build many more jails and spend lots of money that may well be put to other uses. I think any entrapment should be limited to drug importers and peddlers!
 

bobnoorduyn

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Nov 26, 2008
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I agree. Hypothetical scenario. A cop portraying himself as a minor online. He hooks onto an adult, and nags him to agree to sex. The adult repeatedly says no, but the cop keeps nagging him for sex. The man eventually agrees, knock knock on the door, arrest, goes to court.


Just to reiterate, that would be counselling someone to commit a crime, and yes, would be grounds for a defense of entrapment. If the adult in question was the one doing the badgering, knowing, in his mind at least, he was counselling a minor, he would have established his criminal intent, and would rightly be charged. Bear in mind though, we still have a constitutional guarantee of innocence until proven otherwise. No matter of what you might think of the creeps we read about in the papers, it is there to protect all of us. Better that 100 guilty go free than one innocent be falsely imprisoned, but that's not the way it has been working, and for a long time.
 

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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I believe the standard is 'would he commit the crime without being pressured?'

So the example of a cop asking repeatedly should be ruled entrapment and the accused would be not guilty.

If the cop just talked and made innuendo around sex and the adult asked first it's definitely guilty.

The questionable scenario is if the cop asks once and the guy goes for it right away. Obviously he didn't need much bait but it was still the cop's (young girl's) idea and desire?
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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I believe the standard is 'would he commit the crime without being pressured?'

So the example of a cop asking repeatedly should be ruled entrapment and the accused would be not guilty.

If the cop just talked and made innuendo around sex and the adult asked first it's definitely guilty.

The questionable scenario is if the cop asks once and the guy goes for it right away. Obviously he didn't need much bait but it was still the cop's (young girl's) idea and desire?


It needs to be a bit of a higher standard than that though because a different take on that could be if a guy, in the heat of an argument says, "I'm gonna kill you", (or someone else), it could mean a world of hurt, forever, for something someone said and never really meant.
 

personal touch

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Sep 17, 2014
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Entrapment or any of the other names which go with it,has a history of abuse of process.
Entrapment is not vanilla and comes in many flavours.
Entrapment is a process which has limited checks and balances in place.
Entrapment can alter the path of fair Justice and abuse of power
Entrapment cases have cost Canadians and the Judiciary a lot of embarrassment
 

bobnoorduyn

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Nov 26, 2008
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Entrapment or any of the other names which go with it,has a history of abuse of process.
Entrapment is not vanilla and comes in many flavours.
Entrapment is a process which has limited checks and balances in place.
Entrapment can alter the path of fair Justice and abuse of power
Entrapment cases have cost Canadians and the Judiciary a lot of embarrassment


Yeah, pretty much.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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So, if an undercover cop hands you a lit joint, you take it from him and he then arrests you, it's okay with you because you broke the law?

Yes, along with him. He'll have broken the law too, no?

So with that in mind, unless the cop wants to go in the slammer with me, he might want to think twice about entrapping me. But yes, if I break the law, then I made my choice, no?

Maybe in Canada but not in the States as this device is used all too often on minorities.


Many years ago some unemployed black guy was entrapped by police into believing that he was being hired on a temporary basis to move office and business furnishings. He got paid in cash for hauling stuff onto a truck and moving it to a designated area. He was about to go home when he was arrested for trespassing and theft of property that wasn't his. It is not likely that cops would do that to a college educated white suburbanite.

That's a separate matter. He did not know he was trespassing and stealing property. In such a case, the cop should be thrown in the slammer. When I think of using entrapment as an excuse, I'm thinking in terms of intentionally breaking the law.

Just to reiterate, that would be counselling someone to commit a crime, and yes, would be grounds for a defense of entrapment. If the adult in question was the one doing the badgering, knowing, in his mind at least, he was counselling a minor, he would have established his criminal intent, and would rightly be charged. Bear in mind though, we still have a constitutional guarantee of innocence until proven otherwise. No matter of what you might think of the creeps we read about in the papers, it is there to protect all of us. Better that 100 guilty go free than one innocent be falsely imprisoned, but that's not the way it has been working, and for a long time.

No doubt about it. I don't trust the cops with any burden of proof below guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I am talking here of a clear breaking of the law.

In principle though, the cop knows he risks going to jail for entrapping me, he probably won't entrap me and that makes it a moot point.

The intent here is that should the cop still be stupid enough to entrap me and I willingly break the law knowing I am breaking it, then entrapment should not be an excuse. The cop and I should be cell mates in that case.

Entrapment or any of the other names which go with it,has a history of abuse of process.
Entrapment is not vanilla and comes in many flavours.
Entrapment is a process which has limited checks and balances in place.
Entrapment can alter the path of fair Justice and abuse of power
Entrapment cases have cost Canadians and the Judiciary a lot of embarrassment


I agree there should be tougher laws against entrapment in the first place no doubt.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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I am talking here of a clear breaking of the law.

In principle though, the cop knows he risks going to jail for entrapping me, he probably won't entrap me and that makes it a moot point.

The intent here is that should the cop still be stupid enough to entrap me and I willingly break the law knowing I am breaking it, then entrapment should not be an excuse. The cop and I should be cell mates in that case.


I've only known entrapment used as a defence, I don't know that it is an offense, let alone an indictable one, but what do I know. Cops aren't allowed to break the law, which is where it puts undercover agents in a bit of a predicament when they have to do so to gain street cred in a gang. So yes, if cop breaks the law to entrap you he is guilty too, you or the courts just have to prove it. Say for instance a cop threatens your life or the life of family members he is actually uttering threats, and if you commit a crime knowingly under that circumstance you would likely have the defense of duress available to you, however I believe murder or grievous bodily harm would exceed the scope of that defense.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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Well I guess it's getting to the point police can't catch actual criminals so they need to cultivate their own to justify their drain on society.
 

personal touch

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I've only known entrapment used as a defence, I don't know that it is an offense, let alone an indictable one, but what do I know. Cops aren't allowed to break the law, which is where it puts undercover agents in a bit of a predicament when they have to do so to gain street cred in a gang. So yes, if cop breaks the law to entrap you he is guilty too, you or the courts just have to prove it. Say for instance a cop threatens your life or the life of family members he is actually uttering threats, and if you commit a crime knowingly under that circumstance you would likely have the defense of duress available to you, however I believe murder or grievous bodily harm would exceed the scope of that defense.
What planet are you from?