Faith via reading means you believe the stories are literal in nature.
Wrong, God does thinks as soon as possible rather than sometime in the far future.
So what, if you don't want comments then quit posting and send it as a PM.
People said things the Christ and others had not said
- Thread starter selfsame
- Start date
Wrong, God does thinks as soon as possible rather than sometime in the far future.
So what, if you don't want comments then quit posting and send it as a PM.
That's the true meaning of faith: believing people can carry a story and pass it on and nothing is added along the way. Hell, how many can carry a story in exact measure from one post to the next?
Have it any way you like, I'll stick with the aggressor being the people who come a foreign land and are dressed only for war.
Timeline for the Crusades and Christian Holy War
[FONT="]Timeline[/FONT]
[FONT="]753 [/FONT][FONT="]Pope StephenII tells the Carolingian ruler of the Franks Pepin the Short that St. Peter will remit sins of those who fight for his Church. This is directed against the Lombards who threatened the pope’s control over Rome and the “Papal State.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]852 [/FONT][FONT="]In the 846 a Saracen fleet of 73 ships landed at Ostia, and raided inland, sacking Rome. In doing so, they burnt the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. The new pope Leo IV (r.847-855) ordered Rome’s walls to be rebuilt and refurbished, and had them extended to protect the Vatican hill. He also formed a naval alliance with the cities of Amalfi, Naples, and Gaeta, which drove off a Saracen fleet in 849. Three years later Pope Leo IV issued a call to the Franks, declaring "Whoever meets death steadfastly in this fight [against Moslem raiders of Italy] the Heavenly Kingdom will not be closed to him." This becomes a much quoted text among canonists of the High Middle Ages.[/FONT]
[FONT="]886-908 [/FONT][FONT="]Ten German bishops killed in battles. Theologically, the Church was opposed to clerics getting involved in warfare. Canon law forbade priests from shedding blood, and the Council of Chalcedon of 451 prohibited priests from joining armies, which was repeated (with an interesting escape clause) in a capitulary (edict) issued by Charlemagne in 769: priests may not carry weapons or going to war, except to celebrate mass, pray for Christian victory, or carry relics of saints. The Council of Tribur forbade prayers being offered for clerics killed in wars of brawls. Nonethless, bishops and abbots in the early middle ages were men of great wealth and power. German bishops in particular exercised extensive secular power as royal officials and agents. This often entailed them leading troops into battle in the service of the king. In terms of Christian warfare, doctrine and practice were seriously at odds.[/FONT]
[FONT="]989[/FONT][FONT="] Peace of God. Synod of Charroux (at a Benedictine monastery in La Marche in western France on the border of Aquitaine): beginning of the Christian “Peace of God” movement. Threatens[/FONT][FONT="] excommunication “for attacking or robbing a church, for robbing peasants or the poor of farm animals—among which the *** is mentioned but not the horse which would have been beyond the reach of a peasant—and for robbing, striking or seizing a priest or any man of the clergy who is not bearing arms. Making compensation or reparations could circumvent the anathema of the Church.” Subsequent peace councils were held at [/FONT][FONT="]Poitiers[/FONT][FONT="] (1011-14) and Limoges (994, 1028, 1031, 1033). [/FONT]
[FONT="]1027 Truce of God. Council of Toulouges[/FONT][FONT="] (in eastern Pyrenees) proclaims the “Truce of God,” prohibiting warfare on Sundays and holy days.[/FONT]
and on and on and on, about as ****ed as any group can get.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]1348 Crusade of King Magnus of Sweden[/FONT][FONT="] against pagans of Finland.
Timeline of the Islamic Crusades
[/FONT]Westerners—even academics—accept the notion that the West alone was aggressive. It seems that Islam is always innocent and passive. It is difficult to uncover the source of this western self-loathing. It is, however, a pathology that seems to strike Westerners more than other people around the globe. This anti-West pathology shows up in Westerners’ hatred for the European Crusades in the Medieval Age.
It must be admitted that there is much to dislike about the European Crusades. If it is contrasted with the mission and ministry of Jesus and the first generations of Christians, then the Crusades do not look so good. But did the Europeans launch the first Crusade in a mindless and bloodthirsty and irrational way, or were there more pressing reasons? Were they the only ones to be militant? The purpose of this article is not to justify or defend European Crusades, but to explain them, in part—though scholarship can go a long way to defend and justify them.
In this article, the word "crusade" (derived from the Latin word for "cross") in an Islamic context means a holy war or jihad. It is used as a counterweight to the Muslim accusation that only the Europeans launched crusades. Muslims seem to forget that they had their own, for several centuries before the Europeans launched theirs as a defense against the Islamic expansion.
This partial timeline spans up to the first European response to Islamic imperialism, when Pope Urban II launches his own Crusade in 1095. The timeline mostly stays within the parameters of the Greater Middle East. The data in bold print are of special interest for revealing early Islamic atrocities, their belief in heroism in warfare, or politics today.
The Islamic Crusades were very successful. The Byzantines and Persian Empires had worn themselves out with fighting, so they created a power vacuum. Into this vacuum stormed Islam.
After the timeline, two questions are posed, which are answered at length.
The Timeline
630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting "agreements" from northern tribes. They could enjoy the "privilege" of living under Islamic "protection" (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax.
This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.
632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.
633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).
634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al-Walid. In Khalid’s day an unnamed Muslim remarks: "The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few." To this Khalid retorts: "How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many" (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Laden quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: "[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists" (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).
634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus.
636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636).
638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.
639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.
657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali
661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus
673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.
705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.
710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governorship.
732 The Muslim Crusaders are stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance.
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids.
756 Foundation of Umayyid emirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids.
762 Foundation of Baghdad
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
789 Rise of Idrisid emirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia.
807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy.
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country.
831 Muslim Crusaders capture of Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy.
850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer.
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)
837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France.
869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq
909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia.
928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969).
937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places.
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked .
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam
966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem
969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo.
c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East.
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids.
1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed.
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses.
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus
1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed
1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (also known as Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate.
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia.
1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)
1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia.
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana.
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies.
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca.
1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands.
1094 Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970.
1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099
So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that western Christendom launches its first Crusades.
No-one knows exactly what all Jesus said and there is no way to find out. The fellow is dead, gone, kaput, finished, ended. Anything in the Bible concerning what he said is scuttlebutt (AKA hearsay). It is misinformation, disinformation, intimation, conjecture. And what is more is that it has been translated, which compounds the misinformation and what else.
the Greek word for "sea" is pontos, and for "dense" is piletos, which would take the form in Latin of "Pontius Pilate."
Christ incarnate suffered under the dense sea==matter
You should be saying that about the OT rather than the NT as it was written down shortly after the cross, that is why none go past the 40 days after the return. Being written down from the beginning means it was easy to keep it perfectly intact.
Let's pretend God was a bit more organized than the members here are.
Joh:14:26:
But the Comforter,
which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
All local wars between the people who lived in the area until the European Christians came in. You going to promote that Europe had no local wars before Islam came along?
Bullshyte! Anyone caught in possession of non Roman teaching passed nothing on and it remained that way for around 300 years. When it was finally written down, someone had to decypher the riddles
YOU made the comment that Mohamed was "defending himself". All you've proven so far is that Mohamed attacked the Christians first
630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting "agreements" from northern tribes. They could enjoy the "privilege" of living under Islamic "protection" (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax.
and any "attack" by Christians were well after his death. Like I said, when you don't know you make shyte up.
That's how a lot of things come about. By near do wells exaggerating and embellishing things and simply, as you say, making things up. I prefer to read peer reviewed books by the likes of Ms. Armstrong, Joseph Campbell , even Kenneth C. Davis and others for reliable information and I don't expect them to be perfect either. Ms. Armstrong write extensively on the Muslim religion among all the others. She seems to be the most informative in my opinion.
For information on Judaism I like Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, Author of Biblical Literacy.
For information on Judaism I like Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, Author of Biblical Literacy.
Your own post says there was no battle. When any European Nation won a new territory were ant 'taxes' imposed on the people??
Were the wars in the Middle-east or Europe. If the answer is Europe then Muslims were the invaders, if the wars between the Christians and Muslims was in the Middle-east the European Christian were the invaders. Not that hard to comprehend gerr. BTW the war still seems to be going on and the Christians have a long way to go before they can call it a 'win'.
Still better than Pete and Repete.
Dickface the Edict of Milan which legitimized Christianity in Rome was in 312 AD . The Council of Nicea which put the writings together in 325 AD. What in the world are you blathering about?Are you saying a few decades is 4 centuries.
New Flash: Luke 21:12-24 was a prophecy that the Apostles would experience before 70AD as that is when the armies surrounded Jerusalem. Not like God to give a prophecy after the event is already history. Nor would a mention of the scattering be given before it took place if it was a 'past tense' reference.
Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.
Nor can these statements be true if the writings were not produced shortly after the cross.
Joh:21:24:
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things,
and wrote these things:
and we know that his testimony is true.
1Jo:1:1-3:
That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,
of the Word of life;
(For the life was manifested,
and we have seen it,
and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship is with the Father,
and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Incidentally, libraries are preferable to google.
You keep posting scripture from the New Testament to a person who does not accept the books as inspired. Only the letters in red. What is the point other than to take up page space.
If Jesus died in 30AD and some saw and heard and touched him then they were around to be eye-witnesses to the events they wrote about. It's not rocket science but you do have to pay attention.
I'm pretty sure it was legitimized when a few people were doing the 'signs following'. 325AD was setting up which copies followed the originals the best, by 450AD Rome was using the corrupt Latin version of the Bible.
I'm pretty sure it was legitimized when a few people were doing the 'signs following'. 325AD was setting up which copies followed the originals the best, by 450AD Rome was using the corrupt Latin version of the Bible.
The ancient religions of Selfsames culture were polytheists I'm thinking. Especially if he is Iraqi. What I wonder is why he is an infidel to his natural religion in favor of this new religion that came about in the 7th century.
Why you be infidel Selfsame? ,,Bailiff,,,,,,,
.
Why you be infidel Selfsame? ,,Bailiff,,,,,,,
.