Conditions for the divorce
- Thread starter selfsame
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Jesus is speaking to the Jewish religious leaders. Their language is the law. He is speaking a customized message to them in their own language and context.
In verses 10-12, Jesus is speaking to his disciples. They are truth-seekers. Notice the different response they receive from Jesus on the same subject and to the same question.
With which group above do you identify, gerry?
No, you are saying that, gerry.
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Moses, in the OT, says that divorce is OK..... you have said that this is from God.
In the NT, Jesus said that Moses wrote the law and was wrong. That God does NOT allow divorce.
There is a contradiction here if both "laws" are Gods.
I'm going from what YOU posted
Leviticus 19“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.
23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.
26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.
27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.
A Blasphemer Put to Death
10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the Lord should be made clear to them.
13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.
17 “‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. 22 You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.’”
23 Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the Lord commanded Moses
leviticus 15
19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.
20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, they will be unclean till evening.
24 “‘If a man has sexual relations with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.
25 “‘When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Anyone who touches them will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
28 “‘When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the Lord for the uncleanness of her discharge.
31 “‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.’”
32 These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen, 33 for a woman in her monthly period, for a man or a woman with a discharge, and for a man who has sexual relations with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.
You posted it already. I just posted more of "God's" laws from Leviticus. How about you explain why we don't follow those "laws" any more? I can't find any where in the Bible where God rescinded these laws. Tell me why these laws aren't followed? I can't think of a single Christian today that follow those laws. As a matter of fact, I don't believe any Jew follows any of these laws. Explain that motar.
Deuteronomy 24New International Version (NIV)
24 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Well Motar? Explain the inconsistency.
Hubby and I are as one, but we are not one.
Yes, at times. Yeshua was human, after all.
Definition:
"SIN
1
a : an offense against religious or moral law
b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food>
c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
2
a : transgression of the law of God
b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God"
(My thanks to Merriam-Webster, as always)
Sin, to me, is a deliberate act against nature and the universe. It is an unnatural act. But, everything is as it should be, whether we like it or not.
Out of curiosity alone how much does a decent wedding cost and how much for the not so decent divorce?
There is no inconsistency, gerry. There are different types of laws in the Bible. OT civil and ceremonial laws apply to ancient Israel. Moral laws apply to all people at all times. In which of these law categories would you place divorce?
There is a human cost in divorce which is not reckoned in the figure above, AG. Divorce inflicts spiritual violence on the injured parties and undermines and burdens society with the social consequences.
"The man who hates and divorces his wife,' says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'does violence to the one he should protect,' says the Lord Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful." ( Malachi 2:16 NIV)
This type of spiritual violence is akin to that described by Jesus in his mountain sermon:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:21-22 NIV)
In God's economy, murder : physical abuse :: insult : spiritual violence.
you are ignoring the fact that if all the laws in the OT and the NT are ordained by God, then there IS an inconsistency. The OT allows for divorce and the NT does not.
Some points which I should explain here:
1- Divorce is not allowed haphazardly:
{Quran 65: 1
[Then, God – be glorified – explained that the divorce is not allowed but only for the wife who commits an obvious adultery, and He said:]
[O husbands] do not turn them out of their houses [by divorce], nor should [your women, of their own accord, demand to be divorced and] go out d,
except when they commit an obvious indecency e. }
........................................................
d It means: The wives have no right to demand divorce, unless both the husband and wife agree on the divorce. And except:
e i.e. (1)the adultery is clearly confirmed by witnesses, by the eye-witnessing or by her confession – and then the husband is allowed to divorce her;
(2) or if she undresses herself and becomes naked so that a stranger sees her naked without dresses; that is by bathing on the roof of the house and a man of the neighbors sees her or another one sees her whose house is higher than her house, and by doing so, she will have committed the indecency; or she bathes in the sea together with men as do some women do in this time...
So by such indecency too, the husband is allowed to divorce her.
While by four witnesses testifying that she committed adultery, the religious punishment will be applied to her, she will not have the Nafaqa due money, neither will she be given what remains of her postponed dowry, nor anything else that she may demand of the husband.
(3) The third way, if she is ‘Nashiz’ who disobeys the order of her husband, he is then allowed to divorce her.
1- Divorce is not allowed haphazardly:
{Quran 65: 1
[Then, God – be glorified – explained that the divorce is not allowed but only for the wife who commits an obvious adultery, and He said:]
[O husbands] do not turn them out of their houses [by divorce], nor should [your women, of their own accord, demand to be divorced and] go out d,
except when they commit an obvious indecency e. }
........................................................
d It means: The wives have no right to demand divorce, unless both the husband and wife agree on the divorce. And except:
e i.e. (1)the adultery is clearly confirmed by witnesses, by the eye-witnessing or by her confession – and then the husband is allowed to divorce her;
(2) or if she undresses herself and becomes naked so that a stranger sees her naked without dresses; that is by bathing on the roof of the house and a man of the neighbors sees her or another one sees her whose house is higher than her house, and by doing so, she will have committed the indecency; or she bathes in the sea together with men as do some women do in this time...
So by such indecency too, the husband is allowed to divorce her.
While by four witnesses testifying that she committed adultery, the religious punishment will be applied to her, she will not have the Nafaqa due money, neither will she be given what remains of her postponed dowry, nor anything else that she may demand of the husband.
(3) The third way, if she is ‘Nashiz’ who disobeys the order of her husband, he is then allowed to divorce her.
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The Quran is moderate between the two extremes of the Torah and the Gospel
Although the Torah and the Gospel originally were from God Most Gracious, but some alterations and changes have been done in both these glorious books. Moreover, the Quran is superior to the previous heavenly books: because it is more recent, and because its statements are arranged and organized by God to the advantage of humanity.
So that there is neither the strict straitened laws of the Torah, nor the much non-observance of Christians ,
While the Glorious Quran is moderate between the two: neither much strictness of Jews, nor much non-observance of Christians.
Although the Torah and the Gospel originally were from God Most Gracious, but some alterations and changes have been done in both these glorious books. Moreover, the Quran is superior to the previous heavenly books: because it is more recent, and because its statements are arranged and organized by God to the advantage of humanity.
So that there is neither the strict straitened laws of the Torah, nor the much non-observance of Christians ,
While the Glorious Quran is moderate between the two: neither much strictness of Jews, nor much non-observance of Christians.
I see. Y'all had to do a little editing so as to fit your dogma. In other words, as you say, gods words needed to be improved upon by your group. Anything before your religion was inadequate. I got ya. Thanks for helping god along.
No, of course.
The Quran is from God certainly.
Why is this:
It is similar to the Torah in the principles like the first commandment, which pertains to God alone without associate, and without son or parents.
Moreover, the statements are similar to the statements of the Torah, but not exactly similar.
So if the Quran was from Mohammed, the Quran would then come very identical to the Torah.
On the other hand, if the Quran was invented by Mohammed, then it would come different from the Torah in every respect, specially concerning the First Commandment that God is One without equal.
I see that the man is "allowed" to divorce the woman. What about the woman divorcing the man, and under what conditions as said by the Quran is that to happen? Specifics please, like you give for men divorcing women. Not the cop out "and the same for men".
No, and you've proven such by your own words as "interpreted" by a man. God supposedly "gave" these words to Mohammed, but Mohammed was still a man and a man in power; power corrupts men, even men from religious sects. Like the Bible and Torah, the words were written to support the people and believers they were written for and not necessarily for all humans. Each "holy text" has so much back and forth, so much blood, war, slavery that for a better world, they SHOULDN'T be followed.
But then I'm female and according to your book (and all three by tradition) I'm supposed to shut up and just do what I'm told, not think because I can't know the complexities of the world.
Right?