Baltimore is now going into a state of emergency....

[Tecumsehsbones]

ah okay thanks...I don't think their colour is the issue, it's their behaviour...at least that's what I thought

This is probably just going to get me in trouble, but. . .

Sal, color is only part of the issue here. Obviously, in every country, in every city, the police are biased against the poor. Some of this bias is semi-legitimate: the combination of ignorance, poor self-control, and little or nothing to lose can make the poor dangerous.

In the U.S., however, there is also a race factor. Non-whites, and in the eastern cities particularly blacks, are over-represented among the poor and hopeless. And whites are over-represented among the police. So the problem here is partly a conduct thing, partly a poverty thing, and partly a race thing. Right now, the focus is on race, which does not mean that the other problems are not present or that there is no attention paid to them.

But you can ask anyone who denies that race is a factor why Chris Rock gets pulled over for no reason as much as he does. Chris Rock is rich and famous. He drives an expensive, late-model car in immaculate condition. Yet he's been pulled over three times since he started recording his pull-overs. I wonder how many times an equivalent rich, famous white comedian, for example Louis C.K., has been pulled over in the same time.

As a personal thing, I tend to get the same treatment west of the MIssissippi. I've learned to keep my passport and Bar credentials handy when I travel west. When I get pulled over, I hand over the whole package. The license and registration to prove I'm on the up-and-up with the Motor Vehicle Department, the passport to prove I'm not an illegal alien, and the Bar credentials to warn the cop that I'm not an easy target, if that's the direction his thoughts are tending.

 

[EagleSmack]

Ta daaaa!


Why would you be in trouble T? You're just saying what you feel.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

oh...Kevin Moore: The man who filmed Freddie Gray video has been arrested at gunpoint - Americas - World - The Independent

that was a short stay then as this article is from this morning...

what's up with that?

That, m'dear, is what we call "lazy-as s journalism, republishing crap from the internet instead of reporting." Please note that the article you cite, whilst being dated two days ago, does not identify when Kevin Moore was arrested, or when he was released. Moore and two other members of Copwatch were apparently arrested, possibly for curfew violations. Moore was released soon after, and I cannot find the status of his sidekicks.

Just more slanted news being presented by people with an agenda.

 

[Sal]

This is probably just going to get me in trouble, but. . .

Sal, color is only part of the issue here. Obviously, in every country, in every city, the police are biased against the poor. Some of this bias is semi-legitimate: the combination of ignorance, poor self-control, and little or nothing to lose can make the poor dangerous.

In the U.S., however, there is also a race factor. Non-whites, and in the eastern cities particularly blacks, are over-represented among the poor and hopeless. And whites are over-represented among the police. So the problem here is partly a conduct thing, partly a poverty thing, and partly a race thing. Right now, the focus is on race, which does not mean that the other problems are not present or that there is no attention paid to them.

Thanks for laying that out so succinctly TB...I have been mulling this race problem over and over in my mind for a long time. I simply don't have the experience nor the opportunity to know. And truth be told, I have one black friend and she is married to a white guy and they are rich well not rich, but certainly not middle class. I knew there were other factors but couldn't quite pull it together.

I think I have become more sensitive to the issues now that I work in a school board and travel from school to school within the same Board. I live in essentially a very white, very rich city. Schools within our own Board are extremely wealthy and yet there are pockets of such poverty right in the mix. Those kids are given a lot of attention and helped in many ways but what they go home to, what they cope with on a daily basis is tragic.

Before when I was in sales, those worlds never collided. I was not afforded the opportunity to "know" to "see" to "feel". And I don't now really either but now I have the awareness that I need new eyes. I need deeper sensitivity. I need to not rush to a conclusion based upon middle class values simply because it is not helpful in anyway or to anyone and it is narrow.

But you can ask anyone who denies that race is a factor why Chris Rock gets pulled over for no reason as much as he does. Chris Rock is rich and famous. He drives an expensive, late-model car in immaculate condition. Yet he's been pulled over three times since he started recording his pull-overs. I wonder how many times an equivalent rich, famous white comedian, for example Louis C.K., has been pulled over in the same time.

I did not know this.

As a personal thing, I tend to get the same treatment west of the MIssissippi. I've learned to keep my passport and Bar credentials handy when I travel west. When I get pulled over, I hand over the whole package. The license and registration to prove I'm on the up-and-up with the Motor Vehicle Department, the passport to prove I'm not an illegal alien, and the Bar credentials to warn the cop that I'm not an easy target, if that's the direction his thoughts are tending.

I think until it becomes personal, it is easy to stay cocooned. And although it feels preferable it is certainly, limited and not a part of the solution.

What is going to happen with this cop thing? I know whenever we have travelled in the States my guy warns me, when crossing the border, and if we get pulled over, keep your mouth shut...(I am high energy, chatty, friendly, talk to everyone and basically hold nothing back). He has never trusted the cops in the States and we are just an old white couple. Now he trusts them less, our next trip should be interesting.

What is going to happen? What has to happen? I feel like it's a powder keg just like it was when I was a kid in the 60's watching everything burn on the news.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Ta daaaa!


Why would you be in trouble T? You're just saying what you feel.

Because the right-wingers (of whom you are NOT one, so settle your as s down) will turn into shrieking maniacs over the "race" part, the dedicated Marxist-Leninists will leap all over the "poor" part, and the Bernie Sanders voters will jump up and down over my statement that some of the police caution and extra attention to the poor is legitimate.

And it ain't what I feel. It's what I know.

 

[SLM]

Because the right-wingers (of whom you are NOT one, so settle your as s down) will turn into shrieking maniacs over the "race" part, the dedicated Marxist-Leninists will leap all over the "poor" part, and the Bernie Sanders voters will jump up and down over my statement that some of the police caution and extra attention to the poor is legitimate.

And it ain't what I feel. It's what I know.

So you're worried you'll irritate the extremists? LOL. I say go for it.

Look, one would have to be an idiot not to acknowledge that race isn't part of the issue, that poverty and education (or lack thereof) isn't part of the issue, that conduct, both on the part of law enforcement and the community, both real and perceived isn't part of the issue. The whole point being that there is not one right answer, one solution because there isn't just one problem. Anyone with any type of extreme agenda will focus solely on their interests alone and thus they too become part of the problem.

I'm a firm believer, naive though it may be, that things like honesty, truth and a frank dialogue on the issues is the only way to ever have a hope in hell of turning it around. The only way out is through. But honesty, truth and frank discussions don't happen when we sit back and let people with a specific agenda or ideal lead the way.

So again, I say irritate the hell out of them and hopefully those who aren't afraid to face the ugliness that the real truth can expose will step up and join the discussion.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

What is going to happen with this cop thing? I know whenever we have travelled in the States my guy warns me, when crossing the border, and if we get pulled over, keep your mouth shut...(I am high energy, chatty, friendly, talk to everyone and basically hold nothing back). He has never trusted the cops in the States and we are just an old white couple. Now he trusts them less, our next trip should be interesting.

What is going to happen? What has to happen? I feel like it's a powder keg just like it was when I was a kid in the 60's watching everything burn on the news.

Well, I presume you're white, so that helps, as does a Canadian license plate. Even the dumbest cop is at least vaguely aware that an international incident is not in his best interest. If you are stopped, evaluate the cop's attitude. Be professional. From what I gather from what you've said about your career, you're perfectly capable of putting on the "office face." That's how you want to deal with the cop. Don't answer questions, such as "do you know how fast you were going?" Or any other questions. Once the cop is finished writing you the ticket, ask if you can go now. DO NOT give consent for any searches. A simple "I do not consent to that" is sufficient. Repeat as needed.

The reason I tell you not to answer questions is that this is the standard interrogator's method of getting people to talk. Ask them an innocuous question and get them in the habit of answering. Pose them unanswerable crap like "If you're not doing anything wrong, why do you object to a search?" In traffic stops, the proper answer to any question is "Am I free to go now?"

The key here is to comply with the cop's legal instructions (such as producing your license and car registration documents) whilst withholding consent for anything else. The payoff is that if they play any stupid cop games, you will be on record as having actively asserted your rights, specifically refused consent to searches and suchlike, and tried to end the detention. Your demeanour will also impress senior cops and prosecuting attorneys that you are a normal, innocent, civilized Canadian, i.e., not the kind of person they want. Further, the techniques I recommend will signal them that you are informed of your U.S. rights, and messing with you is likely to turn into forty miles of barbed wire for them.

So, pleasant professional "office face," keep your hands in sight, do whatever Officer Friendly orders you to do, but do not answer his questions or give him permission to do anything (if he has the power without consent, he won't ask), and regularly repeat "am I free to go now?"

As I said, given your race, age, and sex, you are very unlikely to be pulled over for illegitimate reasons, even moreso if you're wearing Canadian plates. But these steps, rendered politely, should maximize your chance of getting away without charges, or with no more than a routine ticket, and give you the maximum possible protection if your cop does happen to be one of the "bad" ones.

I'm a firm believer, naive though it may be, that things like honesty, truth and a frank dialogue on the issues is the only way to ever have a hope in hell of turning it around. The only way out is through. But honesty, truth and frank discussions don't happen when we sit back and let people with a specific agenda or ideal lead the way.

I think you're nuts, and as you say, Anne-of-Green-Gables naive. Truth and frank dialogue are weak and slow tools.

On the other hand, they are the only tools that work AT ALL, so I guess we better use 'em.

It's like Winston Churchill said about democracy: it's the worst form of government in the world, except for everything else.

 

[SLM]

I think you're nuts, and as you say, Anne-of-Green-Gables naive. Truth and frank dialogue are weak and slow tools.

On the other hand, they are the only tools that work AT ALL, so I guess we better use 'em.

It's like Winston Churchill said about democracy: it's the worst form of government in the world, except for everything else.

I may be crazy but I'm a fun and lovable kind of crazy.

Truth, real truth, isn't weak. It's harsh and it's brutal. Which is why people will do everything in their power to avoid it. Real truth doesn't make me look good, or you look good, or anyone look good, it is what it is. What most people will say is the truth is really just their tarted up version, rare is the person who will look at the wrong within themselves. It's far easier to look at the wrong in others. But to get anywhere, you've got to look at both.

 

[Sal]

Well, I presume you're white, so that helps, as does a Canadian license plate. Even the dumbest cop is at least vaguely aware that an international incident is not in his best interest. If you are stopped, evaluate the cop's attitude. Be professional. From what I gather from what you've said about your career, you're perfectly capable of putting on the "office face." That's how you want to deal with the cop. Don't answer questions, such as "do you know how fast you were going?" Or any other questions. Once the cop is finished writing you the ticket, ask if you can go now. DO NOT give consent for any searches. A simple "I do not consent to that" is sufficient. Repeat as needed.

The reason I tell you not to answer questions is that this is the standard interrogator's method of getting people to talk. Ask them an innocuous question and get them in the habit of answering. Pose them unanswerable crap like "If you're not doing anything wrong, why do you object to a search?" In traffic stops, the proper answer to any question is "Am I free to go now?"

The key here is to comply with the cop's legal instructions (such as producing your license and car registration documents) whilst withholding consent for anything else. The payoff is that if they play any stupid cop games, you will be on record as having actively asserted your rights, specifically refused consent to searches and suchlike, and tried to end the detention. Your demeanour will also impress senior cops and prosecuting attorneys that you are a normal, innocent, civilized Canadian, i.e., not the kind of person they want. Further, the techniques I recommend will signal them that you are informed of your U.S. rights, and messing with you is likely to turn into forty miles of barbed wire for them.

So, pleasant professional "office face," keep your hands in sight, do whatever Officer Friendly orders you to do, but do not answer his questions or give him permission to do anything (if he has the power without consent, he won't ask), and regularly repeat "am I free to go now?"

As I said, given your race, age, and sex, you are very unlikely to be pulled over for illegitimate reasons, even moreso if you're wearing Canadian plates. But these steps, rendered politely, should maximize your chance of getting away without charges, or with no more than a routine ticket, and give you the maximum possible protection if your cop does happen to be one of the "bad" ones.

8O 8O 8O wtf...seriously TB I thought he was being super paranoid and frankly a little bitchy with me...but when you lay it out this way...yeah, guess he wasn't, I would of had us in trouble ten times over...lol...thanks for laying it out this way, NOW it makes sense.

so... how is this massive racial/poverty issue going to get fixed for your country...I know it will be slow especially the poverty but there's a call to action here and they will burn everything to the ground if they have to...and part of me, gets it

so where do you start?

 

[DaSleeper]

When I was young, after having driven all night to bring a friend to a southern Ontario doctor's appointment, I got stopped by a cop, for a minor traffic violation which I wasn't really guilty off.
Being tired the cop approached me rather gruffly, and I answered him *** for tat.
Needless to say , I got a fine......
I changed my method on traffic stops, and never got a ticket since, and I have managed to talk my way out off tickets by just being polite.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

8O 8O 8O wtf...seriously TB I thought he was being super paranoid and frankly a little bitchy with me...but when you lay it out this way...yeah, guess he wasn't, I would of had us in trouble ten times over...lol...thanks for laying it out this way, NOW it makes sense.

so... how is this massive racial/poverty issue going to get fixed for your country...I know it will be slow especially the poverty but there's a call to action here and they will burn everything to the ground if they have to...and part of me, gets it

so where do you start?

We're well started. Now we just have to press on.

This Baltimore thing, and Ferguson, and Cleveland, and all the others, are corrections in action. In many cases, at least the cop was charged. That didn't used to happen. Bad cops behave the way they do because they know they can get away with it. As the risk to them of going to prison increases, their bad conduct will decrease.

Here's the ironic part: police shooting of all people, guilty, innocent, armed, unarmed, are at historic lows. Just as violent crime in all categories is down 50% from the early 90s. The reforms we have put in place over the last 50 years ARE working.

The key is in the Preamble to the Constitution: "We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union. . ." Not "a perfect Union," a "more perfect Union. . ."

It will never end. There will always be overreaction, the pendulum swinging too far, thoughtless, overbroad laws and policies, anger and fear driving policy as much as rationality and basic sense.

It ain't pretty. It ain't supposed to be pretty. And I envy Canadians. Y'all somehow manage, on a regular basis, to deal with these issues more rationally, less emotionally, than Americans. Not that you're perfect by any stretch, just that you manage to find answers everybody can more-or-less live with in an easier, less dramatic way.

I've made some effort in this thread to show the power and influence of Ray Lewis and the Ravens. I think that is currently the most effective single technique. Get these huge, utterly macho, rich, famous men out there to say to the kids "Stay in school. That's where the power is. It ain't fair, it's probably never gonna be fair. But the more you know, the more you can do." Coming from the Ravens, many of whom were poor themselves, and some of whom were homeless as teenagers, or had criminal problems, this message is powerful.

I've done the same myself. When I speak to kids, my constant theme is "I'm a lawyer. I will let you know how to beat the cops. For $400 an hour. Or, you can get the same knowledge for free from your teachers. All you have to do is show up and pay attention."

Once you have full legal equality, and we do, at least as regards race, then you get to the messy problems of dealing with attitudes and prejudices, on all sides.

And that, m'dear, is why I am a liberal in my recognition of the problems, and a conservative in my notions of solutions.

 

[JLM]

When I was young, after having driven all night to bring a friend to a southern Ontario doctor's appointment, I got stopped by a cop, for a minor traffic violation which I wasn't really guilty off.
Being tired the cop approached me rather gruffly, and I answered him *** for tat.
Needless to say , I got a fine......
I changed my method on traffic stops, and never got a ticket since, and I have managed to talk my way out off tickets by just being polite.

Wise decision - you can't win with those bastards!

I may be crazy but I'm a fun and lovable kind of crazy.

Truth, real truth, isn't weak. It's harsh and it's brutal. Which is why people will do everything in their power to avoid it. Real truth doesn't make me look good, or you look good, or anyone look good, it is what it is. What most people will say is the truth is really just their tarted up version, rare is the person who will look at the wrong within themselves. It's far easier to look at the wrong in others. But to get anywhere, you've got to look at both.

I also see a lot of kindness at times. Sometimes what you get is a reflection of what you give!

 

[EagleSmack]

The best thing to say to a cop after they pull you over is...


"Don't you have anything better to do?"


They love that and will usually let you off with a warning.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

The best thing to say to a cop after they pull you over is...


"Don't you have anything better to do?"


They love that and will usually let you off with a warning.

Oh, you're mean!

I admire that.

 

[captain morgan]

The best thing to say to a cop after they pull you over is...


"Don't you have anything better to do?"


They love that and will usually let you off with a warning.

Don't forget to tell them that as a taxpayer, you are their employer... It's a lot easier to get all high and mighty as the boss dontcha know

 

[EagleSmack]

Don't forget to tell them that as a taxpayer, you are their employer... It's a lot easier to get all high and mighty as the boss dontcha know

How could I forget!


"You are a public servant and I pay your salary."


Cops love that.

 

[captain morgan]

It's true, they do love it a lot

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Youse guys are just TRYING to sponsor an as s-kicking, aren't you?

 

[gore0bsessed]

This is probably just going to get me in trouble, but. . .

Sal, color is only part of the issue here. Obviously, in every country, in every city, the police are biased against the poor. Some of this bias is semi-legitimate: the combination of ignorance, poor self-control, and little or nothing to lose can make the poor dangerous.

In the U.S., however, there is also a race factor. Non-whites, and in the eastern cities particularly blacks, are over-represented among the poor and hopeless. And whites are over-represented among the police. So the problem here is partly a conduct thing, partly a poverty thing, and partly a race thing. Right now, the focus is on race, which does not mean that the other problems are not present or that there is no attention paid to them.

But you can ask anyone who denies that race is a factor why Chris Rock gets pulled over for no reason as much as he does. Chris Rock is rich and famous. He drives an expensive, late-model car in immaculate condition. Yet he's been pulled over three times since he started recording his pull-overs. I wonder how many times an equivalent rich, famous white comedian, for example Louis C.K., has been pulled over in the same time.

As a personal thing, I tend to get the same treatment west of the MIssissippi. I've learned to keep my passport and Bar credentials handy when I travel west. When I get pulled over, I hand over the whole package. The license and registration to prove I'm on the up-and-up with the Motor Vehicle Department, the passport to prove I'm not an illegal alien, and the Bar credentials to warn the cop that I'm not an easy target, if that's the direction his thoughts are tending.

right. i think a bigger problem than even racism or sexism is classism.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

right. i think a bigger problem than even racism or sexism is classism.

Absolutely. Or maybe not bigger, but at least as significant.

I'd be interested in discussing solutions to classism, if you're up for it.