Canadians will forever be indebted because of Jim Flaherty.

BornRuff

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If your goods can't reach market they don't get developed.

Have you heard of the AP Gateway and corridor project? GTH Regina or CenterPort in Winnipeg?

I get what you mean for sure. The fact is that the goods themselves are still the real driver here.

Infrastructure is definitely one of the best things that the government can invest in. It can be a huge support to private business.

I am still kind of confused as to how you think this relates to Flaherty or your two way to lower the deficit though.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Not the last 2. THE Asia Pacific yes.
The latter are integral links. Both will be free trade zones with distribution, manufacturing and assembly out the yin yang.

As well as being for goods, energy will part of the corridors.

I get what you mean for sure. The fact is that the goods themselves are still the real driver here.

Infrastructure is definitely one of the best things that the government can invest in. It can be a huge support to private business.

I am still kind of confused as to how you think this relates to Flaherty or your two way to lower the deficit though.
This started under Trudeau and Flaherty was the last Gatekeeper who did an excellent job of carrying it forward.

It relates by how he balanced sacrifice and inflation through tough times.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Lol, if you want to have a discussion about something, you are going to have to tell me what it is. Until then, have fun.


Is there an urgency to form an opinion and have a discussion about everything? If you know nothing about the topic you sure as hell aren't going to learn enough in five minutes or probably an hour to discuss it sensibly anyway!
 

BornRuff

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Is there an urgency to form an opinion and have a discussion about everything? If you know nothing about the topic you sure as hell aren't going to learn enough in five minutes or probably an hour to discuss it sensibly anyway!

Are you really this stupid? This is a discussion forum.

I assume anyone who brings something up here wants to discuss it, no?

Can you not see how Petros was not exactly forthcoming?

This started under Trudeau and Flaherty was the last Gatekeeper who did an excellent job of carrying it forward.

It relates by how he balanced sacrifice and inflation through tough times.

What did he do in regards to these projects? He is not the minister of trade or infrastructure. He had more than enough on his plate trying to manage the finances.

Do you really think that sacrifice is a defining aspect of his time as finance minister? He seemed to spend a lot more time handing out big cheques than cutting things.

His first few years in office were mostly defined by taking the surpluses and handing them out as tax breaks. Then when the meltdown hit, they spent most of the time cutting massive cheques for "Economic Action Plan" projects.

In order to cut the deficit, he seemed to mostly just be cutting back on the stimulus spending that he implemented in the first place.
 

petros

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ActionPlan and the corridors started under Martin, who do you think managed the cash and chased down more investment when Cons took the helm?

The Liberal who was in charge of these projects crossed the floor to stay on as the main man overseeing everything for the Cons. Look it up.

The corridors and resource development has been bi-partisan since day one.
 

PoliticalNick

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If you can't say anything good about the man maybe you should just keep your F'ing trap shut!

He was a politician and a public figure who's actions affected all Canadians in one way or another. Placing yourself in a position like that opens you up for criticism both warranted and not. I will say whatever I want about any politician whenever I want no matter if alive or dead. It comes with their job. I have to agree with the OP that is complete bullsh*t to make the man into a hero just because he died. What he did in life still counts. Given your attitude maybe we shouldn't say anything bad about Hitler or Stalin. Flaherty made some decisions and policies during his tenure that made the richest supporters of the CPC richer at the expense of the hardest working people of Canada. |Along with the rest of the CPC leadership they handed out billions in corporate welfare to some of the largest global companies while cutting education and healthcare and a host of other programs for the poor and middle class and my great grandchildren will be paying those bills in 100 years if nothing changes so I don't care if he died, it wasn't soon enough for my liking. If you want to say nice things about him go ahead but don't you dare tell me to not speak my piece about the a$$hole.
 

BornRuff

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ActionPlan and the corridors started under Martin, who do you think managed the cash and chased down more investment when Cons took the helm?

The Liberal who was in charge of these projects crossed the floor to stay on as the main man overseeing everything for the Cons. Look it up.

The corridors and resource development has been bi-partisan since day one.

There may have been a previous plan with a similar name, but I am specifically referring to the massive increase in spending brought in in the 2009 budget under the title of "Canada's Economic Action Plan".

I really don't think that Flaherty would have been involved in chasing down investment for these projects. That would definitely be more the minister and bureaucrats within the respective ministries.

Flaherty obviously was in charge of crafting the budgets that funded these things, but he certainly never had final say on what was funded and what wasn't.
 

JLM

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He was a politician and a public figure who's actions affected all Canadians in one way or another. Placing yourself in a position like that opens you up for criticism both warranted and not. I will say whatever I want about any politician whenever I want no matter if alive or dead. It comes with their job. I have to agree with the OP that is complete bullsh*t to make the man into a hero just because he died. What he did in life still counts.


What would you have had Flaherty do differently?
 

BornRuff

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What would you have had Flaherty do differently?

I don't think that the GST cut was wise. Sales taxes are pretty much the most efficient way to raise revenue. The only real merits to cutting the GST were that is is highly visible and therefore helpful politically.

It would have made better economic sense to put that money toward cutting a less efficient tax, like the business or personal income taxes, or simply paying down some of the debt so they would be in a better position when something like 2008 happened.

Just because the books balance that year doesn't mean anything above that amount is superfluous long term. A lot of economists thought that the tax cuts brought in by Flaherty and Harper at the start of their term put Canada's revenues below a long term sustainable level, much less where you would want to be going into a crisis.
 

DaSleeper

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May 27, 2007
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I have to agree that a consumer tax is one of the fairer tax, as long as a rebate is regularly given to lower income individuals or families....and none of these single payment options given at tax time, that people with poor budgeting ability tend to spend foolishly.


Unless someone has a better option....................
 

Cobalt_Kid

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The piece from the OP is just as unbalanced as the Rah-Rah, bull**** that follows everything the conservatives do, it governs by fake applause, not fact.

What's with all this praise for Jim Flaherty's record? | Press Progress

He missed the greatest economic downturn of our time, that's very poor performance for any Finance Minister and if the conservatives had any real honour he would have stepped down when it became clear that Canada would need to run a massive deficit. Something we weren't informed going into the 2008 election, that's fraud of a another sort, something very common to the Harper government.

#1 Didn't realize a recession was happening when the recession happened

In the midst of the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression, Flaherty released a fiscal update in 2008 that made no mention of stimulus spending and calmly projected a modest surplus. The rest of the world was freaking out, descending into financial chaos and taking unprecedented action to stabilize the global economy.

Flaherty's reaction to the global financial crisis nearly triggered a vote of non-confidence. Harper prorogued Parliament instead.

How does running massive deficits make him a great finance minister, Paul Martin actually did deliver balanced budgets and surpluses, remember Mr. Dithers. He makes Flaherty look sad in comparison.

#2 Mr. Fiscal Conservative ran record deficits

Flaherty is a "fiscal conservative" focused squarely on balancing the budget, but tabled seven deficit budgets and racked up $150 billion in debt.

Created many new jobs?

For who, there are hundreds of thousands of foreign workers being brought into Canada, many to take jobs that Canadians are competing for, something the government admits. What's the intent here, to help Canadians or devalue Canadian workers while benefiting employers?

#3 The one million jobs man? Nope

Flaherty talked repeatedly that "one million net new jobs have been created since the depth of the recession in July 2009" -- the depths of the recession.

But how about looking at the Conservative record since the beginning of the recession in September 2008 – instead of from the extreme low point – to judge how well the Conservatives do?

Between September 2008 and September 2013, 653,400 jobs were added to the economy, and more than half of those new jobs (53.4%) were in sales and services, the lowest-paid occupational category.

Meanwhile, the employment rate, which is a better indicator of labour market performance because it measures the proportion of working-age Canadians with a job, is worse today than before the recession (standing at 66.5% compared to 68.3% in 2008).

We kept hearing how Canada was doing better than almost everyone, once more conservative fluff.

#4 The top economy in the G7? Nope, again

Flaherty talked a lot about Canada's economic recovery as a success story, topping all G7 countries.

In actual fact, Canada's real GDP per capita growth puts us in the middle of the pack, behind Germany, Japan and the United States. And among 34 OECD countries, Canada stands at 16th spot when population growth and purchasing power are taken into account.

And it just goes on.

It's too bad that the man died, but it's complete nonsense that he's some kind of Canadian hero, this is just more spin in line with everything else this government keeps putting out.

And conservatives just keep lapping it up because politics does tend to make people stupid and the modern brand of conservatives are more politically partisan than any group I've seen in my lifetime.

How politics makes us stupid - Vox
 
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Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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The piece from the OP is just as unbalanced as the Rah-Rah, bull**** that follows everything the conservatives do, it governs by fake applause, not fact.

What's with all this praise for Jim Flaherty's record? | Press Progress

He missed the greatest economic downturn of our time, that's very poor performance for any Finance Minister and if the conservatives had any real honour he would have stepped down when it became clear that Canada would need to run a massive deficit. Something we weren't informed going into the 2008 election, that's fraud of a another sort, something very common to the Harper government.

Well so did every Finance Minister in every country. So did the banks, and the vast majority of financial analysts.

So that is a fail. Ah the partisan crap is overwhelming.
Next the GST,approx 20-22 billion the first year Chretien was in power. Oh yeah he was going to cut that tax. Next along with an improved world economy where growth was across the board somehow made the Liberal the excellent stewards ship award. Really. You do believe that crap.

You suffer from a complete lack of comprehension.
 

petros

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It is hard for me to really view debt reduction as one of his legacies. He oversaw the largest deficit in Canadian history, and since then he has really just been slowly pulling back the things that created the deficit in the first place.

Granted, I know that a large deficit was necessary at the time. I am just saying that this narrative you are painting doesn't seem to fit. It seems like his legacy is more one of knowing when to spend even if it doesn't fit with your core party beliefs.
The deficits were well spent in the majority of ActionPlan projects and investment during the crash. We bought a lot of great assets on the cheap that rebounded rapidly.

There may have been a previous plan with a similar name, but I am specifically referring to the massive increase in spending brought in in the 2009 budget under the title of "Canada's Economic Action Plan".

I really don't think that Flaherty would have been involved in chasing down investment for these projects. That would definitely be more the minister and bureaucrats within the respective ministries.

Flaherty obviously was in charge of crafting the budgets that funded these things, but he certainly never had final say on what was funded and what wasn't.
None of the projects that got funding were unexpected and were planned and budgeted for years in advance.

The deficits were well spent in the majority of ActionPlan projects and investment during the crash. We bought a lot of great assets on the cheap that rebounded rapidly.


None of the projects that got funding were unexpected and were planned and budgeted for years in advance.
It was lucky timing that these jobs and spending hit the economy. With or without the crash the projects were going ahead.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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We will remember Tim's contributions to the fabric of this country with great affectations. Rex Morphy is still audible in the background this very moment, the calls keep coming in, a few of them are actually real people.
 

JLM

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I don't think that the GST cut was wise. Sales taxes are pretty much the most efficient way to raise revenue. The only real merits to cutting the GST were that is is highly visible and therefore helpful politically.

.


Which brings me back to the old saying I learned many years ago- "the man who doesn't make any mistakes doesn't generally make anything".
 

BornRuff

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Which brings me back to the old saying I learned many years ago- "the man who doesn't make any mistakes doesn't generally make anything".

That is pretty meaningless. It was a very big and expensive choice that we will be paying for for quite a long time. I don't think that should be dismissed with platitudes.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Well so did every Finance Minister in every country. So did the banks, and the vast majority of financial analysts.

So that is a fail. Ah the partisan crap is overwhelming.
Next the GST,approx 20-22 billion the first year Chretien was in power. Oh yeah he was going to cut that tax. Next along with an improved world economy where growth was across the board somehow made the Liberal the excellent stewards ship award. Really. You do believe that crap.

You suffer from a complete lack of comprehension.

Nonsense, while other governments were already taking action to deal with the crisis, ours was claiming Canada wouldn't even need to run a deficit in response in the lead-up to the 2008 election. A few months later after another conservative minority government was elected it introduced record deficit spending.

Either it was known by the conservatives before the election that massive spending would be needed and they neglected to inform voters or Flaherty had no clue what was happening. Neither is good.

Quotes then and now: Harper, Flaherty

"This country will not go into recession next year and will lead the G7 countries."
- Prime Minister Stephen Harper (Oct. 10)

"We will not run a deficit."
- Finance Minister Jim Flaherty (Oct. 9)

They didn't just get it a little wrong, they weren't even in the ballpark and either they or we should have had that information leading up to the vote in 2008. Someone should have resigned over this, but instead Harper shut down Parliament during his constitutional crisis and we got massive deficit spending in the new year.

Too bad your side only has personal attacks instead of facts.
 

BornRuff

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Well so did every Finance Minister in every country. So did the banks, and the vast majority of financial analysts.

So that is a fail. Ah the partisan crap is overwhelming.
Next the GST,approx 20-22 billion the first year Chretien was in power. Oh yeah he was going to cut that tax. Next along with an improved world economy where growth was across the board somehow made the Liberal the excellent stewards ship award. Really. You do believe that crap.

You suffer from a complete lack of comprehension.

The first point isn't exactly true. The Conservatives were denying that there was any need for stimulus long after most every other country in the world had acknowledged the crisis. It took a near revolt in the house of commons for the Conservatives to get the message.

When the Liberals were slaying the deficit in the late 90's, the good economic conditions were obviously a huge help. They did make very significant cuts though to get the job done.

The deficits were well spent in the majority of ActionPlan projects and investment during the crash. We bought a lot of great assets on the cheap that rebounded rapidly.


None of the projects that got funding were unexpected and were planned and budgeted for years in advance.


It was lucky timing that these jobs and spending hit the economy. With or without the crash the projects were going ahead.

That is not true. You are right that many of the projects simply had their timeline accelerated, but many other projects were approved because of all the extra money available. They were taking applications from municipalities and provinces all over Canada for ideas on how to spend the money.

I personally believe that the spending was necessary. I am not arguing that it should not have been spent. I am simply arguing that his legacy is not one of cuts and balancing the budget. He oversaw the largest deficit in the nations history, and has not overseen many significant cuts in spending other than rolling back the spending that he rolled out in the first place.