Rational Faith

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Oh goody, goody! The tag team of born againers is back. I was beginning to think they had run away already like so many before them.

There is far more evidence that aliens have been visiting Earth than there is of this god of the bible. Now, I'm no atheist by any stretch but I have the same objections to this particular version of god as most atheists do.
 
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L Gilbert

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I like discussing this with you and CJ. You two remind me of a good friend who once posted here as Sanctus. He is an RCC priest. Very reasonable fellow. And I thank you for a reasonable discussion.
Anyway, for the most part I am quite curious as to what drives this faith. What makes it tick? How do people become addicted to it? etc. etc. etc.
 

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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All 3 objections actually, plus the objection that according to the book and its proponents, this god has human traits such as immaturity, temperamental, maliciousness, is knowable, yet unknowable. In a word, the objection is that the existence is irrational.

As stated previously, LG, in order for God to be uncaring, God must exist and have the capacity to intervene but choose to do nothing. Citing all three objections to God is irrational.

Concerning the rationality of atheism, Professor Paul C. Vitz (Psychology, New York University) states:

"I wish to make two points bearing on the underlying assumption of my remarks.

First, I assume that the major barriers to belief in God are not rational but - in a general sense - can be called psychological. I do not wish to offend the many distinguished philosophers - both believers and nonbelievers - in this audience, but I am quite convinced that for every person strongly swayed by rational argument there are many, many more affected by non-rational psychological factors.

My second point as qualification is that in spite of serious difficulties to belief, all of us still have a free choice to accept God or reject Him. This qualification is not in contradiction to the first."
The Psychology of Atheism
 

darkbeaver

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Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits?

See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

The cycle of life would require some circular reasoning wouldn't it?
 

JLM

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In 2007, Dr. Francis S. Collins penned The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, in which he puts forward his argument for the integration of faith and logic. Prior to his book, in a 2004 PBS interview, Collins discussed his conversion from atheism to faith while in medical school as he encountered the suffering of those afflicted with serious illness. 'They had terrible diseases from which they were probably not going to escape, and yet instead of railing at God, they seemed to lean on their faith as a source of great comfort and reassurance.' said Collins. 'They weren't, somehow, perceiving it as the really awful thing that it seemed to me to be. And that was interesting and puzzling and unsettling.'

Collins said his inquiry led him to the realization that he had 'made a decision to reject any faith view of the world without ever really knowing what it was that I had rejected.' 'And that worried me. As a scientist, you’re not supposed to make decisions without the data,' he said. 'It was pretty clear I hadn’t done any data collecting here about what these faiths stood for.'

Collins’s conversion was not instantaneous. He came to his 'faith is rational' conclusion after many painful months of resistance and ambivalence. 'I didn’t want this conclusion. I was very happy with the idea that God didn’t exist, and had no interest in me,' Collins said. 'And yet at the same time, I could not turn away. I had to keep turning those pages. I had to keep trying to understand this. I had to see where it led." NIH Director Francis S. Collins: Faith a Conclusion Arrived at Through Rational Thought

Who is Dr. Francis S. Collins? What is rational faith? How does one integrate reason and belief?

What's with these a$$holes that they think they have the solution to a mystery that's gone unsolved for 2000 years. Enough of this bullsh*t! Just chill out, sit back and await the 2nd coming, then you'll have the answers from the "horse's mouth".
 

JLM

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Without faith what is the point of living if it's so sh-tty with sh-tty things happening to good people?

Well, if everyone used the brains God gave them, the number sh*tty things happening would just be fraction of what is currently happening and the rest there's not much you can do about.
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
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So it follows unnatural laws or no laws at all; the laws of imagination. I really do see the need for faith in order to believe in this god because there is a complete lack of natural evidence and only an iffy bit of unnatural evidence. My understanding of evidence doesn't allow for the latter, however. Evidence in my opinion should be unbiased, objective, demonstrable, repeatable, and not contradictory to known laws of the universe.
Gilbert - you state here that there is a complete lack of natural evidence. Evolution is a theory. Of course, intelligent design is a theory too. But, do you consider creation as possible evidence for there being a Creator?

Gilbert, In regards to your comment, "Paraphrasing what I said is that this loving god allows such misery in diseases and horrible death and yet the faithful use that as evidence." I do not think there is an answer that would be completely satisfactory to the question, "Why does God allow misery, disease, etc."

Also, an answer to the question, "A thought just popped up; are there verses in the OT showing anything other than nasty actions via this god? Yes, there are numerous displays of God's care/kindness in the OT.

Oh goody, goody! The tag team of born againers is back. I was beginning to think they had run away already like so many before them.

There is far more evidence that aliens have been visiting Earth than there is of this god of the bible. Now, I'm no atheist by any stretch but I have the same objections to this particular version of god as most atheists do.
Cliffy, I am happy to see you are overwhelmed with joy at my return. I, too, am on cloud nine to see your post. :)

What's with these a$$holes that they think they have the solution to a mystery that's gone unsolved for 2000 years. Enough of this bullsh*t! Just chill out, sit back and await the 2nd coming, then you'll have the answers from the "horse's mouth".
JLM, You lost me? What was the mystery and who has the solution?
 

JLM

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JLM, You lost me? What was the mystery and who has the solution?

There are several mysteries- what happens to us after we leave here? How does God manage 8 billion people on the planet? Why do we see bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people? I guess the ultimate solution will present itself at the time of the Second Coming and until then we just use our heads and do what is right for us (which could include helping others)
 

cj44

Electoral Member
Sep 18, 2013
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I like discussing this with you and CJ. You two remind me of a good friend who once posted here as Sanctus. He is an RCC priest. Very reasonable fellow. And I thank you for a reasonable discussion.
Anyway, for the most part I am quite curious as to what drives this faith. What makes it tick? How do people become addicted to it? etc. etc. etc.
Gilbert, I don't know that I could rightly explain it so it would make any sense. But, my faith in God isn't just a hope. I mean I don't have to sit around and conjure up belief in God. He is just there. Faith came without any of my doing. I can only say if Jesus is who he said he was, then clearly it is more than possible and quite probable and expected that his gospel would spread to the ends of the earth and result in people having faith & believing in Him. How can anyone explain that? There is no natural law to explain it. You think about all the professed Christians throughout history - yeah, I know there are some nuts tossed in, but something got a hold of those people. I know there are some on these forums that enjoy ripping the Bible to shreds. The Bible warned there would be those that would do so. Others deny Christ is God. The Bible warned of that as well. The thing about the Bible is after you get to reading it, you come to realize that it is right time and time again.

All things including faith in a living God become possible if Christ is who he said he was.

There are several mysteries- what happens to us after we leave here? How does God manage 8 billion people on the planet? Why do we see bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people? I guess the ultimate solution will present itself at the time of the Second Coming and until then we just use our heads and do what is right for us (which could include helping others)
Take it easy JLM. You don't expect me to answer all of those questions do you???? :)
 

JLM

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Gilbert, I don't know that I could rightly explain it so it would make any sense. But, my faith in God isn't just a hope. I mean I don't have to sit around and conjure up belief in God. He is just there. Faith came without any of my doing. I can only say if Jesus is who he said he was, then clearly it is more than possible and quite probable and expected that his gospel would spread to the ends of the earth and result in people having faith & believing in Him. How can anyone explain that? There is no natural law to explain it. You think about all the professed Christians throughout history - yeah, I know there are some nuts tossed in, but something got a hold of those people. I know there are some on these forums that enjoy ripping the Bible to shreds. The Bible warned there would be those that would do so. Others deny Christ is God. The Bible warned of that as well. The thing about the Bible is after you get to reading it, you come to realize that it is right time and time again.

All things including faith in a living God become possible if Christ is who he said he was.


Take it easy JLM. You don't expect me to answer all of those questions do you???? :)

So the mysteries remain! -:)
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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So the mysteries remain! -:)
One day, a long time ago, it came to me in a flash of inspiration, that the second coming was a process, not an event. Jesus is a metaphor, an archetype of a consciousness that has been around for thousands of years, even before JC was supposed to have materialized 2000 years ago. The ancients were aware about many things but they couched them in symbolism, with each culture using symbols that made sense to them. The Jesus story is as old as the hills and twice as dusty but using different names.

Over many millennium, humans have evolved and we are fast approaching a state of consciousness that will allow us to understand what the metaphor was all about: we are no different than Jesus. We are all children of god/universe/great spirit/whatever. Jesus even said that when we finally wake up to who we really are we will be able to do far more than he was able to do. He never put himself above others and never claimed to be greater than anyone else. It was Paul and Constantine who made him a god. They missed the point of his teachings.

We are all spirit infused in matter. We have the divine spark in us. Once we wake up to our true potential as human beings we will come into our full power. Religion is the biggest drawback to us fully developing our full potential by telling us that we are lesser beings, sinful beings, hiding our divinity from us.

"We are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden."
- Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.
 

JLM

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One day, a long time ago, it came to me in a flash of inspiration, that the second coming was a process, not an event. Jesus is a metaphor, an archetype of a consciousness that has been around for thousands of years, even before JC was supposed to have materialized 2000 years ago. The ancients were aware about many things but they couched them in symbolism, with each culture using symbols that made sense to them. The Jesus story is as old as the hills and twice as dusty but using different names.

Over many millennium, humans have evolved and we are fast approaching a state of consciousness that will allow us to understand what the metaphor was all about: we are no different than Jesus. We are all children of god/universe/great spirit/whatever. Jesus even said that when we finally wake up to who we really are we will be able to do far more than he was able to do. He never put himself above others and never claimed to be greater than anyone else. It was Paul and Constantine who made him a god. They missed the point of his teachings.

We are all spirit infused in matter. We have the divine spark in us. Once we wake up to our true potential as human beings we will come into our full power. Religion is the biggest drawback to us fully developing our full potential by telling us that we are lesser beings, sinful beings, hiding our divinity from us.

"We are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden." - Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.

Yeah, I think you are onto something. In the past year or so I've been mulling over the idea that we each have a God within us. Probably less than one percent of the population reaches their full potential by many of the ones that do, do it through their own resources. Like the Olympic athletes or guys like Chris Hatfield or Chuck Yeager.
 

cj44

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One day, a long time ago, it came to me in a flash of inspiration, that the second coming was a process, not an event. Jesus is a metaphor, an archetype of a consciousness that has been around for thousands of years, even before JC was supposed to have materialized 2000 years ago. The ancients were aware about many things but they couched them in symbolism, with each culture using symbols that made sense to them. The Jesus story is as old as the hills and twice as dusty but using different names.

Over many millennium, humans have evolved and we are fast approaching a state of consciousness that will allow us to understand what the metaphor was all about: we are no different than Jesus. We are all children of god/universe/great spirit/whatever. Jesus even said that when we finally wake up to who we really are we will be able to do far more than he was able to do. He never put himself above others and never claimed to be greater than anyone else. It was Paul and Constantine who made him a god. They missed the point of his teachings.

We are all spirit infused in matter. We have the divine spark in us. Once we wake up to our true potential as human beings we will come into our full power. Religion is the biggest drawback to us fully developing our full potential by telling us that we are lesser beings, sinful beings, hiding our divinity from us.

"We are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden."
- Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.
Cliffy,
A common belief amongst false prophets/cults is that humans are god, will be god or are in part god. For some reason these groups like to elevate themselves to godhood and at the same time deny the deity of Christ. Your comment regarding "Paul making him God" is also erroneous. Paul taught that Jesus was God because Jesus taught He was God. For starters, read the gospel of John. Now, here you will defend your position by claiming the Bible is worthless. It gets down to who do you believe Jesus Christ is? Is he God? If so, then the Bible is not just a antiquated book of errors. Rather, it becomes the solid, true Word of God because certainly God is more than capable of preserving and guarding his Word - what he wants people to know - throughout the ages.

John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Yeah, I think you are onto something. In the past year or so I've been mulling over the idea that we each have a God within us. Probably less than one percent of the population reaches their full potential by many of the ones that do, do it through their own resources. Like the Olympic athletes or guys like Chris Hatfield or Chuck Yeager.
JLM,
Did Hatfield or Yaeger turn water into wine, cure leprosy, make the blind see or raise from the dead? Those men were talented - Hatfield & Yaeger, but Jesus had a little something extra called Deity. This is the stumbling stone. This is what we all trip over. Is Jesus God? Now, we trip over this because if it is true - that Jesus is God, then we all have some splainin to do. (The would be explaining to do).
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Everything Is Meaningless

1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”

3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

Wisdom Is Meaningless

12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
15 What is crooked cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.

16 I said to myself, “Look, I have increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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JLM,
Did Hatfield or Yaeger turn water into wine, cure leprosy, make the blind see or raise from the dead? Those men were talented - Hatfield & Yaeger, but Jesus had a little something extra called Deity. This is the stumbling stone. This is what we all trip over. Is Jesus God? Now, we trip over this because if it is true - that Jesus is God, then we all have some splainin to do. (The would be explaining to do).

I think before we can go anywhere with this discussion, we have to determine, what all the facts are about Jesus beyond any doubt. Was there really such a man? Did he actually do all the things attributed to him? Is there any iron clad proof that he did even one of the things attributed to him? If we can't verify these "facts", then any discussion could be based on false premises.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Yes, that's probably true, in the sense that there was a charismatic apocalyptic Hebrew preacher in first century Palestine the tales are based on, but the miracle-working wonder man described in the Gospels, no. That's a fabrication assembled from oral traditions for certain didactic and political purposes several generations after Jesus' death by people who never knew him.