Grace and Karma

[Motar]

Paul David Hewson (Bono) appears to live a transcendent kind of life...Bono seems to have mastered the "both this and that" harmony that holds it all together:

"But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross." But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old... - Bono at BrainyQuote

Having been raised in a Catholic home and awakened to Christ in a Protestant context, I identify in some ways with Bono. When asked, "What is your religious preference?", I self-identify as Christian. I have heard inquirers reply, "That's not on my list" or "That's not a religion", to which I reply, "Exactly."

Having been raised Canadian and lived in the United States, I have learned the value of "both this and that". Irish and French, Liberal and Conservative, Calvinist and Armenian, I find that "both this and that" has removed fences in my life, allowing me more freedom to travel and interact, than if I was "either this or that" in my thinking:

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1 NIV)

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, I understand the notion of universalist thought. I don't agree with it. I don't buy into believe what you want and it is true. Rather, I believe in one truth

That is OK because I don't buy into your Dogma.

Oh, by the way, I was once accused of being a secular humanist. That was the big born again boogie man of the 80s. Is a Universalist the new born again boogie man? If so, I will wear that as a badge of honour too.

Lastly, if "Darwin has your back", run like hell because before too long you might sprout a third leg, additional digits and a really big ear....in the center of your forehead.

Why wait for the holocaust, mutate now! A friend once said, "in ten thousand years from now we may all have lizard skin but it won't matter because we will all have lizard skin and we will just think it is normal."

 

[Motar]

Lastly, if "Darwin has your back", run like hell because before too long you might sprout a third leg, additional digits and a really big ear....in the center of your forehead.

I don't deny evolutionists their right to claim the transmutation of species as scientific theory, cj, so long as they can concede that my ancestors are not apes : )

 

[cj44]

That is OK because I don't buy into your Dogma.

Oh, by the way, I was once accused of being a secular humanist. That was the big born again boogie man of the 80s. Is a Universalist the new born again boogie man? If so, I will wear that as a badge of honour too.


Why wait for the holocaust, mutate now! A friend once said, "in ten thousand years from now we may all have lizard skin but it won't matter because we will all have lizard skin and we will just think it is normal."

Cliffy I wasn't talking about my dog or my mother.
I hope I am not accusing you of being anything you do not want to be defined as. I thought universal best described your position and i do not mind hearing that opinion. Please do correct me when you feel it necessary.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy I wasn't talking about my dog or my mother.
I hope I am not accusing you of being anything you do not want to be defined as. I thought universal best described your position and i do not mind hearing that opinion. Please do correct me when you feel it necessary.

I don't take much seriously so correcting is not necessary. You state your views and I state mine. It is difficult using this medium because we can't see facial nuances and expressions, otherwise you would know that most of the time I am pulling your leg.

To me dogma is taking a metaphor as literal truth. You see, I did something in my life that few people have done. I talked to hundreds people from a wide variety of religious and spiritual beliefs. I read hundreds of books about the subjects. What I realized was that once you remove the dogma of those beliefs, they were all talking basically about the same things. It is the dogma that separates them and creates misunderstanding and animosity. What I have been trying, all this tome, is to get you to see that we actually have similar beliefs but you are letting dogma get in the way of seeing that.

 

[Motar]

To me dogma is taking a metaphor as literal truth...What I realized was that once you remove the dogma of those beliefs, they were all talking basically about the same things. It is the dogma that separates them and creates misunderstanding and animosity. What I have been trying, all this tome, is to get you to see that we actually have similar beliefs but you are letting dogma get in the way of seeing that.

I rely heavily on etymology when it comes to understanding words based upon their origins, Cliffy.

dogma (n.)
c.1600 (in plural dogmata), from Latin dogma "philosophical tenet," from Greek dogma (genitive dogmatos) "opinion, tenet," literally "that which one thinks is true," from dokein "to seem good, think" (see decent). Treated in 17c.-18c. as a Greek word in English. Online Etymology Dictionary

decent (adj.)
1530s, "proper to one's station or rank," also "tasteful," from Middle French décent, or directly from Latin decentem (nominative decens) "becoming, seemly, fitting, proper," present participle of decere "to be fitting or suitable," from PIE *deke-, from root *dek- "to take, accept, to receive, greet, be suitable" (cf. Greek dokein "to appear, seem, think," dekhesthai "to accept;" Sanskrit daśasyati "shows honor, is gracious," dacati "makes offerings, bestows;" Latin docere "to teach," decus "grace, ornament"). Meaning "kind, pleasant" is from 1902. Are you decent? (1949) was originally backstage theater jargon for "are you dressed." Online Etymology Dictionary

Thanks, Cliffy. I didn't realize until just now how dogma and grace are related.

I don't know why you haven't figured this out yet, but no, I'm not going to do that. That's not what this thread is about, it was not my intention to start a discussion to dissect any or all of them, and I'm not particularly interested in doing so, I think their cruelty and illogic speak for themselves. If you have a point to make about one of them, or all of them, or a subset of them, go ahead and make it, start your own thread about it if you wish, but stop trying to make me follow your agenda.

"First, the law as laid out in the Old Testament is pretty nasty. It includes prescriptions that are criminal offenses in any civilized society, like stoning a stubborn and rebellious son to death, stoning adulterers to death, killing people who work on the Sabbath, wear clothes made of two different kinds of fibres, plant two different crops in the same field and, as Sam Harris pointed out, mandate savage penalties for imaginary crimes. There are 613 such rules according to the rabbinical tradition, mostly laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and they describe an extraordinarily brutal totalitarian society." (Your words, Dex.)

"I'll contend with your second point as time is limited, but my brain even more so. I'll let Motar handle your first point." (cj's words.)

Just following the discussion as it unfolds, Dex.

 

[darkbeaver]

Beavs, Must we disagree again. Ok, lets.
One of the most untrue sentiments in all the land - "God helps them that help themselves". Indeed self reliance is a beast and pride a high ranking devil.

In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Beavs, in regards to salvation we are not able to help ourselves. Rather, GRACE, is what saves. God reaches down to us. We don't reach up to him. We don't even know where to reach. We are poor bumblers.

You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.

You are proud so you are bound to disagree. You can discount me easily and suffer no discomfort but you cannot discount the very sage masters of antiquity who's great works permit you to consider your soul in the first place. Jesus hisself instructed all who would listen very exactly in which direction to seek salvation. I'm astounded that a professed christian seeker would admit he is literally lost on the road. It is also a fact that humility is out of your reach. You are not in the company of bumblers bumbler. Go see if you can find the direction Jesus gave, that all the Christs gave.

 

[Nuggler]

Grace is the one with the big boobs.


Karma, not so much.

 

[darkbeaver]

I don't take much seriously so correcting is not necessary. You state your views and I state mine. It is difficult using this medium because we can't see facial nuances and expressions, otherwise you would know that most of the time I am pulling your leg.

To me dogma is taking a metaphor as literal truth. You see, I did something in my life that few people have done. I talked to hundreds people from a wide variety of religious and spiritual beliefs. I read hundreds of books about the subjects. What I realized was that once you remove the dogma of those beliefs, they were all talking basically about the same things. It is the dogma that separates them and creates misunderstanding and animosity. What I have been trying, all this tome, is to get you to see that we actually have similar beliefs but you are letting dogma get in the way of seeing that.

You're not touching my legs as well are you? I think we're wasting time with cj44, can't be salvaged at this time I think, oh well nothing wasted, he'll make flowers as well as the next bag of potting soil.

 

[cj44]

You are proud so you are bound to disagree. You can discount me easily and suffer no discomfort but you cannot discount the very sage masters of antiquity who's great works permit you to consider your soul in the first place. Jesus hisself instructed all who would listen very exactly in which direction to seek salvation. I'm astounded that a professed christian seeker would admit he is literally lost on the road. It is also a fact that humility is out of your reach. You are not in the company of bumblers bumbler. Go see if you can find the direction Jesus gave, that all the Christs gave.

I'm not lost, I've been found.

You're not touching my legs as well are you? I think we're wasting time with cj44, can't be salvaged at this time I think, oh well nothing wasted, he'll make flowers as well as the next bag of potting soil.

Beavs, what are you trying to salvage me from? You are mighty cross today. I shall try to make amends later this evening as I am bound to all matter of duty at the moment.

I once was lost, but now am found....

I speak of one's spiritual state prior to knowing Christ. I thought we agreed as much.

 

[darkbeaver]

I'm not lost, I've been found.


Beavs, what are you trying to salvage me from? You are mighty cross today. I shall try to make amends later this evening as I am bound to all matter of duty at the moment.

I once was lost, but now am found....

I speak of one's spiritual state prior to knowing Christ. I thought we agreed as much.

You haven't found the directions yet, have you?

 

[L Gilbert]

Gilbert, I'll try an explaination for you.

Regarding "You shall have no other gods & You shall not make for yourself an idol/graven image". Different denominations number the commandments differently. So, Lutheran & Catholic & other faiths actually do not have the commandment "You shall not make for yourself an idol". Rather, that command is defined under the first commandment, "you shall have no other gods". Anyway, God is a jealous God, he says so himself.

Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.

Your comment, "sounds like fear of other gods to me". No, as we can see in above verse & others, God, being all knowing, is upset that his creation would turn to worthless idols which are no gods at all. He is a personal God and wants to slap us knuckleheads upside the head for placing trust in things, people, objects other than Him.

Well, whatever number the law is. Like I said, though, why would the only true god worry about other gods, idols or whatever they may be. That'd be like me being jealous of a crescent wrench or wifey's garden tractor. What's the matter with placing trust in things? I trust her tractor to mow the lawn and help her with other gardening duties. And in this day and age, why would any rational human idolize and worship a garden tractor.

Regarding making a graven image - go ahead and sculpt, paint, and take pictures. This command is about idols of the heart not statues or pictures

Ah, Another unclear concept from the book. Stuff should have been clear from the outset.

As for the Sabbath day. Sabbath means rest. God doesn't care if we rest on Sunday or Saturday or Wednesday. Israelites did keep the day of rest on Saturday. It is the seventh day of the week. Christians now can say "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon ceelebrations or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come. The reality, however, is found in Christ. Essentially we are free in Christ. We no longer have to adhere to all the Old testament religious festivals, ceremonies and special days. You will find a number of cults (heretical Christian sects) expect their members to adhere to these Old Testament holy days.

Um, according to the dictionary, Christianity is a cult. From Oxford's dictionary: "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object"

Nothing wrong with pride either. I am proud of my kids, my wife, and proud that I am good enough that people like me. Vanity would be a nono, in my POV, though.

 

[cj44]

You haven't found the directions yet, have you?

Beavs, You're giving me a lot of jazz this evening.

Well, whatever number the law is. Like I said, though, why would the only true god worry about other gods, idols or whatever they may be. That'd be like me being jealous of a crescent wrench or wifey's garden tractor. What's the matter with placing trust in things? I trust her tractor to mow the lawn and help her with other gardening duties. And in this day and age, why would any rational human idolize and worship a garden tractor.

Ah, Another unclear concept from the book. Stuff should have been clear from the outset.

Um, according to the dictionary, Christianity is a cult. From Oxford's dictionary: "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object"

Nothing wrong with pride either. I am proud of my kids, my wife, and proud that I am good enough that people like me. Vanity would be a nono, in my POV, though.

Gilbert: I can see you would be one to really follow the letter of the law. Trusting the tractor does not equate to worshipping the tractor, eh? Motar, feel free to jump in anytime. My explainations are apparently as clear as mud.

Oxford has it wrong. In no way is Christianity a system of "religious veneration and devotion". Do some denominations make Christianity a "system"? Yes, but they have it wrong.

 

[Cliffy]

Beavs, You're giving me a lot of jazz this evening.


Gilbert: I can see you would be one to really follow the letter of the law. Trusting the tractor does not equate to worshipping the tractor, eh? Motar, feel free to jump in anytime. My explainations are apparently as clear as mud.

Oxford has it wrong. In no way is Christianity a system of "religious veneration and devotion". Do some denominations make Christianity a "system"? Yes, but they have it wrong.

To believe that the only way to salvation is faith in Jesus and his so-called sacrifice is a system of belief. The history of other peoples at the time say that he never died on the cross and is buried in the province of Kashmir in India.

Did Jesus Die - BBC Documentary (5/5) - YouTube

Jesus Lived in India

 

[Motar]

How bout I choose one? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Do you have a book, chapter and verse reference for this one, LG?

 

[L Gilbert]

Beavs, You're giving me a lot of jazz this evening.


Gilbert: I can see you would be one to really follow the letter of the law.

If the law is rational and applies to the time and place, yes.

Trusting the tractor does not equate to worshipping the tractor, eh? Motar, feel free to jump in anytime. My explainations are apparently as clear as mud.

I got your meaning. But I didn't think I'd have to connect the dots for mine. My main point is that some parts of the Bible are vague and some parts are ambiguous. If the Bible was written with all the interpretations that explain these parts included, it'd have to be issued in multiple tomes, like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Or else written to be clear in the first place.

Oxford has it wrong. In no way is Christianity a system of "religious veneration and devotion". Do some denominations make Christianity a "system"? Yes, but they have it wrong.

well, you're referring to the epitome of dictionaries on the English language and English did come from England, which is where Oxford is. Religions and cults are systems: oxford again; "a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole". and if Christianity doesn't venerate and devote itself religiously to Jesus then I don't know what does.
I doubt Merriam-Webster's or Collier's differ from Oxford much. Perhaps you think all the world's dictionaries need to be rewritten?

Do you have a book, chapter and verse reference for this one, LG?

Surely. Ten-Commandments | Ten Commandments with Purpose | GodsTenLaws.com

 

[Motar]

Surely. Ten-Commandments | Ten Commandments with Purpose | GodsTenLaws.com

Thanks. LG. Will you please provide the biblical address so we can all find it?

 

[L Gilbert]

Thanks. LG. Will you please provide the biblical address so we can all find it?

?? You mean where in the Bible? Ex. 20

 

[Motar]

?? You mean where in the Bible? Ex. 20

Thanks, LG. What can you tell us about the context (biblical, historical, cultural, spiritual, geographical, etc.) of this verse?

“You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3 NIV)

 

[Cliffy]

Historical context of the bible:

The God--Jesus Who Wasnt There [Full Film] - YouTube