Funeral for Officer Sgt Ryan Russell - Some people are just plain Ignorant

[karrie]

A lot but...

Okay, feel free to enlighten me then.

First maybe you can explain why the mentally ill should be held responsible for murders, but not other crimes.

Then maybe you can explain to me why a mental facility and oversight isn't punishment? Isn't justice?

I think the mental health care system could use more oversight, but, for the most part, the status quo works quite well. Explain why it doesn't.

 

[BornRuff]

Well... I guess the other poster was right... victims and victim's rights.... pffft... whatever.

It has gotten to the point where I really cringe whenever I hear the term "victim's rights" since it often refers to a lot of reactionary stuff that has long been proven to either not be effective or even to create more victims.

How does it help this particular victim to use him as a prop in your arguments? How does anything that you propose here actually help him?

 

[EagleSmack]

Okay, feel free to enlighten me then.

First maybe you can explain why the mentally ill should be held responsible for murders, but not other crimes.

I believe in "Crime and Punishment". I am not beholden to the lofty ideal that prison should be used for rehabilitation and not punishment.

Second part... I was clear that when they murder, their mental state should not be an excuse for lighter punishment.

I did not say that people who have mental issues should be excused from every other crime.

Then maybe you can explain to me why a mental facility and oversight isn't punishment? Isn't justice?

Confined to a secure mental facility for the rest of his life... sure. Escorted passes outside the walls... heck no.

I think the mental health care system could use more oversight, but, for the most part, the status quo works quite well. Explain why it doesn't.

Why would I need to explain that?

It has gotten to the point where I really cringe whenever I hear the term "victim's rights" since it often refers to a lot of reactionary stuff that has long been proven to either not be effective or even to create more victims.

How does it help this particular victim to use him as a prop in your arguments? How does anything that you propose here actually help him?

I do not consider victims "props". They are real.

I believe that the person that clearly and purposely ran over Ryan Russel with a snow plow should be in prison or a secure mental facility for the rest of his life.

 

[BornRuff]

I do not consider victims "props". They are real.

I believe that the person that clearly and purposely ran over Ryan Russel with a snow plow should be in prison or a secure mental facility for the rest of his life.

Props are still real things. It only becomes a prop if you use it as such.

This post is a pretty good example of what I am talking about here though. You hold up this poor kid and use him to try to prove your point, but in the end, your point has nothing to do with helping this little guy out.

 

[EagleSmack]

Props are still real things. It only becomes a prop if you use it as such.

You called it a prop. I showed two of the victims... they are real.

This post is a pretty good example of what I am talking about here though. You hold up this poor kid and use him to try to prove your point, but in the end, your point has nothing to do with helping this little guy out.

IMO it has everything to do with helping this little kid out. Him knowing that his father's killer is locked up for good.

Do I need to cut and paste Ryan's wife's reaction to the ruling or would her reaction simply be a prop?

 

[BornRuff]

I believe in "Crime and Punishment". I am not beholden to the lofty ideal that prison should be used for rehabilitation and not punishment.

Is it really worth our taxpayer dollars to create a system just to exact our collect revenge on people who do bad things? I'd prefer a system that is actually focused on reducing crime using evidenced based practices.

Confined to a secure mental facility for the rest of his life... sure. Escorted passes outside the walls... heck no.

From my understanding, these passes are mostly used because many of the secure psychiatric facilities don't have a secure outdoor area like prisons do. Getting outside every now and then is kind of a necessity for anyone's mental health.

Trips into the community would also be part of the therapy though. At 46, regardless of if he is in a jail or a mental health facility, he will be released well before his expected age of death. Making sure people are actually able to operate safely in society before they are released is probably a good idea for more than just people declared NCR.

 

[EagleSmack]

Is it really worth our taxpayer dollars to create a system just to exact our collect revenge on people who do bad things? I'd prefer a system that is actually focused on reducing crime using evidenced based practices.

So people paying for their crimes is simply revenge?

From my understanding, these passes are mostly used because many of the secure psychiatric facilities don't have a secure outdoor area like prisons do. Getting outside every now and then is kind of a necessity for anyone's mental health.

Is that a fact? Mental facilities are indoor institutions only? The only reason for this release program is because there are no outside facilities?

Trips into the community would also be part of the therapy though.

Oh isn't that grand!

At 46, regardless of if he is in a jail or a mental health facility, he will be released well before his expected age of death.

Yet another travesty.

Making sure people are actually able to operate safely in society before they are released is probably a good idea for more than just people declared NCR.

And releasing a guy with severe mental issues and a murderer is going to be safe for society.

 

[BornRuff]

You called it a prop. I showed two of the victims... they are real.

Again, nobody has ever argued that they are not real people. I have argued that you are using them as a prop.

IMO it has everything to do with helping this little kid out. Him knowing that his father's killer is locked up for good.

Do I need to cut and paste Ryan's wife's reaction to the ruling or would her reaction simply be a prop?

As far as your point about his kid is concerned, it is kind of a moot point. Even with a first degree murder conviction, locking him up "for good" was never on the table. I have a hard time believing that a child as young as him is really cares where the guy is locked up for the time that he is locked up.

 

[EagleSmack]

Again, nobody has ever argued that they are not real people. I have argued that you are using them as a prop.

What else where you going to do? You had to dehumanize them somehow.

As far as your point about his kid is concerned, it is kind of a moot point. Even with a first degree murder conviction, locking him up "for good" was never on the table.

As I said... another travesty.

I have a hard time believing that a child as young as him is really cares where the guy is locked up for the time that he is locked up.

Good grief. Seriously?

And what about the widow?

 

[BornRuff]

So people paying for their crimes is simply revenge?

If the focus is simply on punishment, what else would you call it? If actions taken are not focused on actually reducing crime, what point is there?

Is that a fact? Mental facilities are indoor institutions only? The only reason for this release program is because there are no outside facilities?

That was the case when this came up in regards to Vince Li.

Very few people are actually declared NCR and put into these secure facilities, so the facilities themselves are very small, normally a wing of a facility that serves other types of patients as well.

Oh isn't that grand!

Yet another travesty.

And releasing a guy with severe mental issues and a murderer is going to be safe for society.

That is kind of the beauty of the forensic mental health system. People can't be released until they are not a risk to society.

In the regular prison system, it is not uncommon for someone who authorities still believe to be a threat to society to be released simply because the time that they can legally hold them is up. A person declared NCR can be held indefinitely as long as they are deemed a risk.

The system has actually been very successful, with recidivism rates a tiny fraction of those in the general prison population.

What else where you going to do? You had to dehumanize them somehow.

I don't know what to tell you. Why on earth would you think that me accusing you of using them as a prop would imply that I want to "dehumanize" them? I am accusing you of treating them inappropriately.

As I said... another travesty.

Good grief. Seriously?

And what about the widow?

You seriously think that the kid is going to be better off knowing the guy is in one type of facility over the other?

Obviously, the death of a loved one and the pain of rehashing it through a trial brings up a lot of emotions.

These issues are obviously heart wrenching, and wanting more punishment for someone who has caused you so much pain is a very normal reaction, but when the dust settles, people often report finding little solace in seeing a harsher penalty.

All the money that might be spent on locking people up and throwing away the key might be better spend on actual services for victims to help them cope with their loss and new reality, and if necessary, fully understand what is happening to the person who is responsible for the crime and why the choices were made.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

I think his mental health status is irrelevant. He stole a snow plow and killed someone with it on a rampage. He should be locked up for good.

I think the system is just plain wrong. We say he was nuts so he is not criminally responsible, then we send him to a funny farm and some quacks take a look, show him some pretty dots and say 'all better'.

The process should be, guilty of the crime, sentence suspended due to insanity, sent to funny farm. When doctor says 'all better', transferred to prison to serve remainder of sentence. Or kept in funny farm for duration of sentence or 'all better' whichever comes last.

 

[EagleSmack]

If the focus is simply on punishment, what else would you call it?

Punishment... end of story.

If actions taken are not focused on actually reducing crime, what point is there?

You can do that... you can try.

That was the case when this came up in regards to Vince Li.

Is that the case here? All over Canada?

That is kind of the beauty of the forensic mental health system. People can't be released until they are not a risk to society.

You don't really believe that do you? Meaning that people are released and re-offend.

In the regular prison system, it is not uncommon for someone who authorities still believe to be a threat to society to be released simply because the time that they can legally hold them is up.

So true... and many times society pays for a weak justice system.

A person declared NCR can be held indefinitely as long as they are deemed a risk.

Let's just hope the deem him NCR for the rest of his life.

I don't know what to tell you. Why on earth would you think that me accusing you of using them as a prop would imply that I want to "dehumanize" them? I am accusing you of treating them inappropriately.

You called them props... not me. You said I was using them as props which was so far from the truth. I said they were real people. You're the one dehumanizing them... not I.

You seriously think that the kid is going to be better off knowing the guy is in one type of facility over the other?

I think that as he gets older and knowing his father's killer is walking about or being coddled will not be a good thing.

Obviously, the death of a loved one and the pain of rehashing it through a trial brings up a lot of emotions.



These issues are obviously heart wrenching, and wanting more punishment for someone who has caused you so much pain is a very normal reaction, but when the dust settles, people often report finding little solace in seeing a harsher penalty.

Just an emotional widow not thinking clearly then?

All the money that might be spent on locking people up and throwing away the key might be better spend on actual services for victims to help them cope with their loss and new reality, and if necessary, fully understand what is happening to the person who is responsible for the crime and why the choices were made.

Actually all the money spent trying to rehab murderers might be better spent on the victims.

I think the system is just plain wrong. We say he was nuts so he is not criminally responsible, then we send him to a funny farm and some quacks take a look, show him some pretty dots and say 'all better'.

The process should be, guilty of the crime, sentence suspended due to insanity, sent to funny farm. When doctor says 'all better', transferred to prison to serve remainder of sentence. Or kept in funny farm for duration of sentence or 'all better' whichever comes last.

I'm trying to say that... with little effect it seems.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

I'm trying to say that... with little effect it seems.

Not surprising given the audience. If Rob Ford had done it his story would be different.

 

[BornRuff]

Punishment... end of story.


You can do that... you can try.

What is the goal of your ideal prison system? What are we getting for the billions of dollars we sink into it every year?

IMO, I think that a safer society should be the number one priority, which means that we need to focus on ensuring that people don't re-offend.

Is that the case here? All over Canada?

Seems to be, but you are more than free to investigate further.

You don't really believe that do you? Meaning that people are released and re-offend.

No, it means that people are not released until they are found to not be a risk to re-offend. They are actually doing a very good job in that regard so far, with recidivism rates a tiny fraction of the general prison population.

So true... and many times society pays for a weak justice system.

So wouldn't you prefer a system that has a ~7% recidivism rate over a ~40%?

You called them props... not me. You said I was using them as props which was so far from the truth. I said they were real people. You're the one dehumanizing them... not I.

This just seems like a pure reading comprehension issue.

I think that as he gets older and knowing his father's killer is walking about or being coddled will not be a good thing.

He's a kid. He will only think that if he is told to think that by people around him. If he is told that his dad's killer is locked away getting the help that he needs, and that is a good thing, then he will believe that. Kids that young are very impressionable about these things.

Just an emotional widow not thinking clearly then?

If you are implying my comments are somehow related to her gender, that is not the case.

There is a reason why these things are decided by people who are not related to the case.

Actually all the money spent trying to rehab murderers might be better spent on the victims.

This seems like a false choice if I ever heard one, since your plan to lock people up forever is way more expensive than any other possible scenario, unless you are proposing going North Korean on them.

 

[karrie]

Why would I need to explain that?

Because you're implying it doesn't work, and that it's putting the public at risk for the sake of low incarceration rates. just making snide comments implying such is not convincing of your viewpoint. The legal system IS rehabilitative in Canada. Throwing a mental patient in jail and treating them like they are the same as everyone else, is a fearful notion, because they WILL be out one day, 'criminally responsible' or not. What sort of person walks out the doors of that prison, is something our legal system has to consider. As such, all the videos and all the pictures of grieving wives, don't change what course is right for society. And treating mental patients the same as you would treat everyone else, is not right.

 

[Sal]

Because you're implying it doesn't work, and that it's putting the public at risk for the sake of low incarceration rates. just making snide comments implying such is not convincing of your viewpoint. The legal system IS rehabilitative in Canada. Throwing a mental patient in jail and treating them like they are the same as everyone else, is a fearful notion, because they WILL be out one day, 'criminally responsible' or not. What sort of person walks out the doors of that prison, is something our legal system has to consider. As such, all the videos and all the pictures of grieving wives, don't change what course is right for society. And treating mental patients the same as you would treat everyone else, is not right.

not to mention the guy may have been someone who fell through the cracks to begin with...

 

[L Gilbert]

Jeezez, this is weird. I like the idea of low recidivism rate but I also like the idea of a degree of punishment. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

 

[karrie]

Jeezez, this is weird. I like the idea of low recidivism rate but I also like the idea of a degree of punishment. The Norwegian prison where inmates are treated like people | Society | The Guardian

Presumably, removing someone's freedom, family, and community, is punishment. Once you've done that, if that person is ever going to be free in the public again (and let's face it, few countries keep any but the worst of the worst forever), then you'd better put some focus on turning out a better person.

I firmly believe many people sitting in prison are there because they lack the skills to function appropriately in the world. I see no reason prison shouldn't try to teach them that there is a better way to live.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Kind of surprised to see this thread and equally surprised to see I got a couple thumbs up. Generally it's not good practice to give a thumbs up on a post over two years old. The reason? I've been known to change my mind.

 

[BornRuff]

Jeezez, this is weird. I like the idea of low recidivism rate but I also like the idea of a degree of punishment. The Norwegian prison where inmates are treated like people | Society | The Guardian

When you treat people like animals, they tend to play the part, so there is little surprise that the more punitive prison system tend to lead to higher recidivism rates.

Some people think that making jail as harsh as possible will make people never want to return, but when people necessarily learn to live in those conditions, it becomes very hard to adapt back to the real world.