Forgiveness is available to all, Gerry. The problem does not lie in the offer of forgiveness, but in the acceptance of it.
...the spiritual pain of separation.
Christianity and Religion
- Thread starter Motar
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Forgiveness is available to all, Gerry. The problem does not lie in the offer of forgiveness, but in the acceptance of it.
...the spiritual pain of separation.
The offer is never withdrawn, Gerry. The potential receiver just never accepts it.
Hello Les
According to the earliest extant material awailable religion was rational thinking and reason was the first gift from you know who. Of course we don't hear much about that angle these days.
The thread has entered the realm of the famous narrow path.
I recognize your universalist point of view, Gerry. I know that God's grace will not be accepted by all because He says so. There are 3 parables in Matthew 25 that end like this:
"But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you." (Matthew 25:12 NIV)
"And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30 NIV)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46 NIV)
"There is the parable of the ten virgins, which tests the genuineness of the faith of Israel; the parable of the talents, which tests the faithfulness of His servants; and the judgment of the gentile nations, which tests their right of admission into the Kingdom. This chapter shows the significance of the coming of Christ as it relates to these groups that shall then be in the world. A close analysis of each group will reveal that it can be stripped down to a personal attitude and relationship to Jesus Christ...For those who reject there is only judgment -" (J. Vernon McGee)
So, to break it right down to the basics, the idea of God having an unconditional love for his children is a lie.
No lie, Gerry. God does love us unconditionally, even when we don't love Him. But His love does not negate His holiness.
Universalism
a : a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved
b : the principles and practices of a liberal Christian denomination founded in the 18th century originally to uphold belief in universal salvation and now united with Unitarianism
Universalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
"Surely the Epistle to the Galatians has a message for us of like temper, who are beset on every hand by cults and isms innumerable that would take us, likewise, from our moorings in the gospel of grace."
http://thruthebible.ca/notes/Galatians.pdf
universalism:grace::religion:Christianity
Motar,
loving unconditionally means without condition. You can't accept that and then throw another component in there and say "except for this" (holiness)... parent's who love unconditionally do not place conditions upon their children
it does not mean they condone their children's behaviour, it means they will never stop loving them in spite of their waywardness
I know god's love because I experienced that type of love via my parents and because I am capable of that type of love
If I am capable of that type of love, surely God is capable of much more. If he is not, it is not God but another being worshiped.
it has been my experience that "many" Christians begin to place conditions upon people on God's behalf (because they know, and only they know) that is not the holy spirit...it is EGO....god does not have conditions
at least, my God does not
354 http://pc93.tripod.com/lostlght.htm
Says Isaiah (I:25): "And I will turn my hand upon thee and purely purge away thy dross and take away thy tin." After purging his floor, "he will gather his wheat into the garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable" (Matt., Luke). We are in hell because the lower segment of us needed the burning, and the upper segment the winnowing, or both segments needed both operations, according to the application of the figure.
To be consumed in the lake, or the furnace, of fire, then, is not, as theology has mistaught a harrowed world, to writhe in flames of torment piled by a vengeful god to satiate a thwarted wrath. There are seven-league-boot strides of distance and difference between this insufferable product of a fiendish theology and the august philosophical conception of primal wisdom. The latter is instinct with dignity and truth; the other a frenzy of inhuman weakness goaded by ignorant fear. Some semblance at least of the hidden truth should have been conceived from the fact that even in the distorted rendering, the souls in hell burn, but do not burn up. Their torment, says orthodoxy, is eternal; and the true and sane original meaning of this whole doctrine went awry because "eternal" was substituted in the translation for "aeonial." The stress of anguish of the fiery experience was to last through the aeon or cycle of incarnation. This rendering yields instruction and intelligence; the other mocks the reason.
The souls burn, but are not extirpated. They die, but live on, eventually transfigured. "I died yesterday, but I am alive today," cries the Manes. "In one of the hells the shades (Manes) are seen burning, but they were able to resist the fire, and consequently it is said: ‘The shades live; they have raised their powers.’"
The lower fires burn with smudge and murk; they must be transmuted to pure flame. Fire there will be; its quality is the vital concern. Says Isaiah (9:17):
Says Isaiah (I:25): "And I will turn my hand upon thee and purely purge away thy dross and take away thy tin." After purging his floor, "he will gather his wheat into the garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable" (Matt., Luke). We are in hell because the lower segment of us needed the burning, and the upper segment the winnowing, or both segments needed both operations, according to the application of the figure.
To be consumed in the lake, or the furnace, of fire, then, is not, as theology has mistaught a harrowed world, to writhe in flames of torment piled by a vengeful god to satiate a thwarted wrath. There are seven-league-boot strides of distance and difference between this insufferable product of a fiendish theology and the august philosophical conception of primal wisdom. The latter is instinct with dignity and truth; the other a frenzy of inhuman weakness goaded by ignorant fear. Some semblance at least of the hidden truth should have been conceived from the fact that even in the distorted rendering, the souls in hell burn, but do not burn up. Their torment, says orthodoxy, is eternal; and the true and sane original meaning of this whole doctrine went awry because "eternal" was substituted in the translation for "aeonial." The stress of anguish of the fiery experience was to last through the aeon or cycle of incarnation. This rendering yields instruction and intelligence; the other mocks the reason.
The souls burn, but are not extirpated. They die, but live on, eventually transfigured. "I died yesterday, but I am alive today," cries the Manes. "In one of the hells the shades (Manes) are seen burning, but they were able to resist the fire, and consequently it is said: ‘The shades live; they have raised their powers.’"
The lower fires burn with smudge and murk; they must be transmuted to pure flame. Fire there will be; its quality is the vital concern. Says Isaiah (9:17):
"God does love us unconditionally, even when we don't love Him. But His love does not negate His holiness." (Motar)
I believe I stated that God does love us unconditionally, Sal. But He is at the same time loving and holy. One does not negate or trump the other. Together, God's love and holiness mandated the cross of Christ.
I BELIEVE there is a God but none of us know for sure, nor do we know for sure what his/her roles are. For the life of me I can not understand people who ram him/her down our throats. When people get hell bent (excuse the pun) on promoting anything, my first suspicion is that it is for their own perceived benefit.
: ) I suspect that we are all here with mixed motivations, JLM, some noble and some not.
"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice..." (Philippians 1:18 NIV)
Christianity is NOT Religion The Latin word from which the English word "religion" is derived means "to bind up." Jesus did not come to bind us up in rules and regulations or rituals of devotion, but to set us free to be man as God inended.
Etymologically it is that influence which "bi nds" him "back" (Latin, re, back, and ligo, to bind.) to that which is most deeply fundamental in him, his deific self; a power or disposition which, amidst the events of a world that is ever changing, links him to an order of permanent and essential being that is the abiding heart of the universe. It is well that this etymological sense of the word be clarified, for there have been definitions that have widely missed the mark of true meaning. One current rendering has it, a "binding back" to the purely conservative, a tying to traditionalism.The Root of All Religion
We are set free to return by the exercise of reason not faith, the whole struggle of life is to remember what you are.
Etymologically it is that influence which "bi nds" him "back" (Latin, re, back, and ligo, to bind.) to that which is most deeply fundamental in him, his deific self; a power or disposition which, amidst the events of a world that is ever changing, links him to an order of permanent and essential being that is the abiding heart of the universe. It is well that this etymological sense of the word be clarified, for there have been definitions that have widely missed the mark of true meaning. One current rendering has it, a "binding back" to the purely conservative, a tying to traditionalism.The Root of All Religion
We are set free to return by the exercise of reason not faith, the whole struggle of life is to remember what you are.
What is the point of life but to become who we are meant to be - a true human being. Our purpose is to remember who and what we are: our own divine nature. Funny, I read the same scriptures that others read and I come to this conclusion. Our way home is to get beyond the dogma of religion and find what Jesus taught about our divine nature. But, of course, if we do, there would be no need for religion and they would all go broke.
okay, thank you,
it did not sound that way because as soon as a "but" is used it sounds like a qualifier
I can clearly state, that my god is one of love...period.
as human beings our potential is limited in every way...therefore our understanding and thus our comprehension is limited
although I was Catholic, I had spiritual experiences that I would term "born again" meaning 'born of the spirit'
I no longer view myself as Christian but believe there is only one god and he makes himself known to us according to our ability
I don't concern myself much with how others view god since that is their journey. I like to talk about, examine and re-examine various aspects of faith since there are always new things to learn or ideas to consider.
Yup. It's the power of Krast, Krishna, Christ already the solar spark in our material body which is us the meat is just a vehicle for us here in the underworld. The word religion has new meaning for me since I started reading the old guys. It certainly carried different meaning then than it does now. Now it seems to be a suspicious thing we should be wary of and as a result it is underexplored in our cultue. All of the magnificent philosophy of antiquity was replaced with diet wisdom and fat free faith, another word trampled by dogma. There's around thirty or so names in the Bible that mean Jesus. And it's Jesus a Christ not Jesus thee Christ. Religion, can't we reclaim the word or is it to late for that do you think?
And their journey is taken on their path pushed along by their spark of life, no one else can show it to us, we remember the way sooner or later but we will remember, time does not matter on that road................at least that's something like the old thinking, and there's miles and miles of that which I find interesting as hell because it makes more sense than the modern processed versions.