PM has spun such a web of deceit he should resign or be dismissed

[FiveParadox]

The fact of the matter is that The Right Honourable Stephen Harper P.C., M.P. (Calgary Southwest), the Prime Minister, has been telling blatant lies to the House of Commons. This conduct on the part of a prime minister is entirely unacceptable, and he should be held accountable — by his Cabinet, his caucus, his party membership, and the electorate.

As far as his Cabinet is concerned, I think we have already seen some cracks start to form in his ministers' solidarity with the prime minister. Consider members of Cabinet who have spoken out to defend the integrity of Mr. Nigel Wright, the prime minister's former chief of staff. This includes a close and stalwart ally to the prime minister: The Honourable Jason Kenney P.C., M.P. (Calgary Southeast), the Minister of Employment and Social Development.

As far as his caucus is concerned, cracks here are apparent in the way that the prime minister has attempted to navigate this crisis. Members of caucus in both the Senate and the House of Commons have spoken out against the prime minister and his management of the situation:

(a) The Honourable Senator Hugh Segal (Kingston-Frontenac-Leeds, Ontario) has been a senator for the Conservative Party since 2005, and has spoken out sharply against the prime minister's efforts to subvert due process.

(b) The Honourable Senator Don Plett (Manitoba), the founding president of the Conservative Party, has spoken out against the prime minister for his lack of due process. He has been one of the more surprising members of caucus to speak out, considering his influence as founding president of the current iteration of the Conservative Party.

(c) Mr. Peter Goldring M.P. (Edmonton East) has openly decried the prime minister's wish to have the three senators-in-question suspended without due process, and has even considered an appeal to His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D., the Governor General, to intervene. Mr. Goldring's preparedness to instigate a constitutional crisis to resolve the current Senate situation should emphasize the severity with which he views the prime minister's conduct here.

With respect to the party membership, coverage by CPAC of the Conservative convention now underway has demonstrated that there are many party members who expected the prime minister to take more ownership of the scandal in yesterday's address to party faithful. Instead, he reiterated the status quo — that whatever the evidence, these three senators should be thrown out of the Upper House post-haste.

And with respect to the electorate, I can only hope that Canadians' memories hold onto this political scene. It has become more clear than ever that the prime minister is no longer fit to govern the country. Being a competent manager of the economy doesn't make you a competent prime minister — there is so much more to it, and the prime minister falls down on everything outside of economic considerations.

... Where were you when thousands of brown paper bags with cash were being passed about?

Getting all high and mighty about these ongoing abuses only when the party you oppose is in power is disingenuous.

That's a bit of an assumption there.

I was too young to pay any attention at all to politics during the sponsorship scandal. And I absolutely reject your continued assertion, here, that we should give the Conservative Party of Canada carte blanche to scandal-it-up as they please "because sponsorship scandal." How about we have some bloody standards for how Government should operate? Yeah, that sounds good.

 

[L Gilbert]

"Stephen Harper shouldn't have to act with integrity, since other prime ministers haven't."

"Stephen Harper can have a few scandals, because Sponsorship Scandal."

"The Conservative Government doesn't have to act honestly, because Sponsorship Scandal."

Raise the bar, folks. Seriously.

But people won't. People will settle for the usual duds and culls.

As to the question of senator and MP compensation...

As counter-intuitive as it may sound, I actually acknowledge that the most effective system of determining the rules for compensation is that the Upper and Lower Houses, themselves, make those decisions. In order to ensure that the privileges of both Houses are maintained -- which is absolutely critical in the effective operation of a parliamentary democracy -- these Houses cannot be forced to negotiate with some outside or third party in those determinations.

And yet you say that the bar needs to be raised? Just what do you expect from the usual duds and culls other than the same old spiels from them, "I need a new car so I need a raise so I'm voting myself a raise" and other such nonsense? These are politicians we are referring to, not honest, honorable people with integrity.

 

[FiveParadox]

And yet you say that the bar needs to be raised? Just what do you expect from the usual duds and culls other than the same old spiels from them, "I need a raise so I'm voting myself a raise" and other such nonsense?

I expect decisions made with integrity, and we should never expect anything less.

The formula set out in the Parliament of Canada Act R.S.C. 1985, c. P-1, is fair. It links the salaries of members of the House of Commons to the salary of the Chief Justice (which is itself determined by a formula), which means that members of the House rarely have to make decisions related to their own pay anyway. Any raises that these members receive were pre-determined before the current Parliament.

 

[L Gilbert]

I expect decisions made with integrity, and we should never expect anything less.

Good luck with that, oh, idealistic one.

The formula set out in the Parliament of Canada Act R.S.C. 1985, c. P-1, is fair. It links the salaries of members of the House of Commons to the salary of the Chief Justice (which is itself determined by a formula), which means that members of the House rarely have to make decisions related to their own pay anyway. Any raises that these members receive were pre-determined before the current Parliament.

Fair is only fair if fair people make the decisions and carry out policies fairly. As I said, politicians are not honorable or filled with integrity.

 

[Sal]

I think that's it's fair to say that 'we' have known (or strongly suspected) that this has been the case ever since you and I were old enough to understand

The simple fact that these azzholes vote in Parliament for their own compensation packages is proof-positive of your above sentiment...

when you read it in print like that it kind of makes one think...what? what do you mean they decide their own compensation packages...that's ridiculous...we don't make our own and wouldn't expect to...as their employer,we should set theirs for them


F

act is; we (as the electorate) are the only ones to blame..

unfortunately, you are fully correct

We've let this happen and rather than demand something be done, we piss and moan about the speeding train that is coming down the tracks that we are standing on

yes

I can list Harper along with every single PM we have had in Canada if you prefer

disappointing isn't it

 

[captain morgan]

I was too young to pay any attention at all to politics during the sponsorship scandal. And I absolutely reject your continued assertion, here, that we should give the Conservative Party of Canada carte blanche to scandal-it-up as they please "because sponsorship scandal." How about we have some bloody standards for how Government should operate? Yeah, that sounds good.

Well, let me bring you up to speed.

Q: How can you tell when a politician is lying?

A: Their lips are moving

That's the short version of my answer.

You can use this clever research tool (Google) to educate yourself on the individual lies, scandals and subversive acts of any and all of Canada's PMs, including the Sponsorship Scandal (aka Adscam)... It's pretty heinous - not just a few hundred thousand in fraudulent expenses and a gvt cover-up... No, no.. This was in the hundreds of millions (that we know of) with full knowledge of the PM, PMO and senior Ministers... Regardless, you can read all about it (and many more from years gone by) at your leisure

Now, apparently you are under the impression that things today are any different than any time in the past. With this in mind, it is with great sadness that I must inform you that Harper is simply 'business as usual'.... That said, I do not subscribe to what you refer to as 'a continued assertion' that the PCs get a free pass - rather, my message is that the system needs full reform, and not just when the party in power is one that you do not support.

As far as the notion having 'some bloody standards for how Government should operate', that sentiment also applies to the analysis and assessment of blame on an equal basis to all individuals, regardless of political stripe that contravene the law and the best interests of Canadians.

Lastly, again, it is with great sadness that I be the one to inform you that in all likelihood, Harper will emerge from this circumstance with little or no damage. No different than Chretin with Adscam or Mulroney with the Schreiber Affair.

 

[FiveParadox]

Well, let me bring you up to speed.

Q: How can you tell when a politician is lying?

A: Their lips are moving

That's the short version of my answer.

You can use this clever research tool (Google) to educate yourself on the individual lies, scandals and subversive acts of any and all of Canada's PMs, including the Sponsorship Scandal (aka Adscam)... It's pretty heinous - not just a few hundred thousand in fraudulent expenses and a gvt cover-up... No, no.. This was in the hundreds of millions (that we know of) with full knowledge of the PM, PMO and senior Ministers... Regardless, you can read all about it (and many more from years gone by) at your leisure

Now, apparently you are under the impression that things today are any different than any time in the past. With this in mind, it is with great sadness that I must inform you that Harper is simply 'business as usual'.... That said, I do not subscribe to what you refer to as 'a continued assertion' that the PCs get a free pass - rather, my message is that the system needs full reform, and not just when the party in power is one that you do not support.

As far as the notion having 'some bloody standards for how Government should operate', that sentiment also applies to the analysis and assessment of blame on an equal basis to all individuals, regardless of political stripe that contravene the law and the best interests of Canadians.

Lastly, again, it is with great sadness that I be the one to inform you that in all likelihood, Harper will emerge from this circumstance with little or no damage. No different than Chretin with Adscam or Mulroney with the Schreiber Affair.

:roll: So, if I can summarize for you:

You cannot criticize a sitting prime minister until you've criticized all the others.

Sorry, nope, the prime minister does not get a free pass on this one. Maybe we have not debated things before, my good captain, but I am not nearly as naïve as you seem to think I am. I just don't think it's productive for us to dismiss any criticism of the Conservative Party that doesn't criticize the Liberal Party in the same breath.

 

[captain morgan]

:roll: So, if I can summarize for you:

You cannot criticize a sitting prime minister until you've criticized all the others.

Apparently, you can't summarize for me, and I will greatly appreciate if you cease and desist in doing so immediately.

... That is all

 

[SLM]

:roll: So, if I can summarize for you:

You cannot criticize a sitting prime minister until you've criticized all the others.

Sorry, nope, the prime minister does not get a free pass on this one. Maybe we have not debated things before, my good captain, but I am not nearly as naïve as you seem to think I am. I just don't think it's productive for us to dismiss any criticism of the Conservative Party that doesn't criticize the Liberal Party in the same breath.

That's actually not what he said at all.

 

[darkbeaver]

Duffy is the same as any other Dingwall entittled to his entittlments . Pigs at the trough .

Dingwall is certainly not current/contemporary/news worthy/ therefore certainly not the same. Why must you denigrate an innocent animal? Pigs have borne too much undeserved scorn because of these common thieves and liars.

Parties may be the problem. They all seem concerned too much with internationalist policies and alliances only very remotely, if at all, in the best interests of Canadians.

 

[gerryh]

You can use this clever research tool (Google) to educate yourself on the individual lies, scandals and subversive acts of any and all of Canada's PMs, including the Sponsorship Scandal (aka Adscam)... It's pretty heinous - not just a few hundred thousand in fraudulent expenses and a gvt cover-up... No, no.. This was in the hundreds of millions (that we know of) with full knowledge of the PM, PMO and senior Ministers... Regardless, you can read all about it (and many more from years gone by) at your leisure

ROFLMFAO.....5P use google to educate himself????????? Oh my god, I think I'm going to pee my pants I'm laughing so hard.... 5P use google to educate himself about Canadian politics......ROFLMFAO............... I'm not even going to bother reading the rest..... I don't think my heart could take any more comedy.

That's actually not what he said at all.

Ummmm....yes, that was the general gist of it. Otherwise, why bring up adscam etc.... That is not being discussed, and the only reason for bringing it up at this point in time is to try and take away the severity of what the present day conservatives are doing.

 

[SLM]

Ummmm....yes, that was the general gist of it. Otherwise, why bring up adscam etc.... That is not being discussed, and the only reason for bringing it up at this point in time is to try and take away the severity of what the present day conservatives are doing.

I read that specific post as it being a systemic problem, that regardless of who you have in these positions, these things are going to happen again and again.

 

[gerryh]

I read that specific post as it being a systemic problem, that regardless of who you have in these positions, these things are going to happen again and again.

which is a tool used to trivialize the present condition.

"It's happened before, it's gonna happen again. It's just the way it is....oh well."


Trivialize.

 

[SLM]

which is a tool used to trivialize the present condition.

"It's happened before, it's gonna happen again. It's just the way it is....oh well."


Trivialize.

Well see that's not where I would take it. I do agree that it's systemic, but when it comes to saying "that's just the way it is...", that to me is completely unacceptable. Because that's not the way it has to be.

I think we absolutely need to hold Harper accountable. He should be held accountable, he's the Prime Minister. The buck stops there. But if we ignore the past we're also ignoring that these things keep happening because we're focusing solely on a specific regime and a 'regime change' is just really not going to do anything to fix the basic problem. We can't count on the 'next guy' to sort it out and do it right. We have to figure out a way to make them do it right and that means, to my way of thinking, that we need to talk about the whole problem and leave the partisan stuff right the hell out of it. On both sides.

 

[captain morgan]

ROFLMFAO.....5P use google to educate himself????????? Oh my god, I think I'm going to pee my pants I'm laughing so hard.... 5P use google to educate himself about Canadian politics......ROFLMFAO............... I'm not even going to bother reading the rest..... I don't think my heart could take any more comedy.

Read the last paragraph of post # 41

I read that specific post as it being a systemic problem, that regardless of who you have in these positions, these things are going to happen again and again.

Thank you... I believe that the system is broken in many ways in a manner that allows the Harpers, Chretins, Mulroneys and Trudeaus of the world to get away with what they have.

While we are at it, get rid of this Parliamentary privilege (or whatever it's called) that protects these d*cks from legal ramifications. Hell, what good are these laws if the MPs are absolved from being held accountable... Guys like Duffy would never have opened his pie-hole in Parliament the way he did if he faced legal ramifications for libel or slander, yet, the system allows for this kind of thing to happen all the time

 

[Goober]

The fact of the matter is that The Right Honourable Stephen Harper P.C., M.P. (Calgary Southwest), the Prime Minister, has been telling blatant lies to the House of Commons. This conduct on the part of a prime minister is entirely unacceptable, and he should be held accountable — by his Cabinet, his caucus, his party membership, and the electorate.

As far as his Cabinet is concerned, I think we have already seen some cracks start to form in his ministers' solidarity with the prime minister. Consider members of Cabinet who have spoken out to defend the integrity of Mr. Nigel Wright, the prime minister's former chief of staff. This includes a close and stalwart ally to the prime minister: The Honourable Jason Kenney P.C., M.P. (Calgary Southeast), the Minister of Employment and Social Development.

As far as his caucus is concerned, cracks here are apparent in the way that the prime minister has attempted to navigate this crisis. Members of caucus in both the Senate and the House of Commons have spoken out against the prime minister and his management of the situation:

(a) The Honourable Senator Hugh Segal (Kingston-Frontenac-Leeds, Ontario) has been a senator for the Conservative Party since 2005, and has spoken out sharply against the prime minister's efforts to subvert due process.

(b) The Honourable Senator Don Plett (Manitoba), the founding president of the Conservative Party, has spoken out against the prime minister for his lack of due process. He has been one of the more surprising members of caucus to speak out, considering his influence as founding president of the current iteration of the Conservative Party.

(c) Mr. Peter Goldring M.P. (Edmonton East) has openly decried the prime minister's wish to have the three senators-in-question suspended without due process, and has even considered an appeal to His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston C.C., C.M.M., C.O.M., C.D., the Governor General, to intervene. Mr. Goldring's preparedness to instigate a constitutional crisis to resolve the current Senate situation should emphasize the severity with which he views the prime minister's conduct here.

With respect to the party membership, coverage by CPAC of the Conservative convention now underway has demonstrated that there are many party members who expected the prime minister to take more ownership of the scandal in yesterday's address to party faithful. Instead, he reiterated the status quo — that whatever the evidence, these three senators should be thrown out of the Upper House post-haste.

And with respect to the electorate, I can only hope that Canadians' memories hold onto this political scene. It has become more clear than ever that the prime minister is no longer fit to govern the country. Being a competent manager of the economy doesn't make you a competent prime minister — there is so much more to it, and the prime minister falls down on everything outside of economic considerations.



That's a bit of an assumption there.

I was too young to pay any attention at all to politics during the sponsorship scandal. And I absolutely reject your continued assertion, here, that we should give the Conservative Party of Canada carte blanche to scandal-it-up as they please "because sponsorship scandal." How about we have some bloody standards for how Government should operate? Yeah, that sounds good.

People believe Duffy over Harper- Why is that? That is a major point that Harper needs to address.

 

[SLM]

Read the last paragraph of post # 41



Thank you... I believe that the system is broken in many ways in a manner that allows the Harpers, Chretins, Mulroneys and Trudeaus of the world to get away with what they have.

While we are at it, get rid of this Parliamentary privilege (or whatever it's called) that protects these d*cks from legal ramifications. Hell, what good are these laws if the MPs are absolved from being held accountable... Guys like Duffy would never have opened his pie-hole in Parliament the way he did if he faced legal ramifications for libel or slander, yet, the system allows for this kind of thing to happen all the time

I'm now dreaming of a Question Period that doesn't sound like recess five seconds before the bell rings. Is such a thing even possible?8O

 

[petros]

Shock collars that detect when Politicians lie or when they pee on the philodendrons.

That'll fix 'em.

Hey wait, do that too. Fix 'em.

 

[captain morgan]

People believe Duffy over Harper- Why is that? That is a major point that Harper needs to address.

I don't believe either, but anyone that stands behind Duffy as being a pawn in Harper's eevviiilllll game is well - how about this: I have a great deal on some water front land 100 miles East and South of the Florida coast.

You interested?

I'm now dreaming of a Question Period that doesn't sound like recess five seconds before the bell rings. Is such a thing even possible?8O

No doubt... Suggesting that Parliament is 'childish' is an insult to children everywhere

 

[SLM]

Shock collars that detect when Politicians lie or when they pee on the philodendrons.

That'll fix 'em.

Hey wait, do that too. Fix 'em.

And I still say we should have web cams on each desk, broadcast it live on the internet so we know when they're sleeping on the job....or not showing up for work.