Only the biggest God builds a civilization: Author posits religion is essential build

Spade

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The Anglicans in Canada commissioned a study (reference on demand) about declining enrollment in their church. The conclusion was that by 2061, based on current trends,, there would be one member left.

For everything, size matters, Spade.

When she said it didn't, she was just being kind.

Well, "beauty lives with kindness."
 

Tonington

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Only the biggest God builds a civilization: Author posits religion is essential building block of society | National Post
Among more militant atheist circles, the argument is often made that religion is a human invention serving only to stand in the way of societal progress. In the new book, Big Gods: How Religion Transformed Cooperation and Conflict, University of British Columbia psychology professor Ara Norenzayan argues the exact opposite: Religions — at least those equipped with an omniscient, omnipresent “Big God” — are not only important, but the source of almost all known earthly civilization. The Post’s Tristin Hopper reached Mr. Norenzayan in Vancouver.

If religion is the “glue” that bonded modern civilization together, as your book asserts, what did human society look like before?
Let’s go back 12,000 years; you have all of humanity living in small bands of hunter-gatherers. Then something happened which, still, we’re trying to understand: In only a few thousands years, which is nothing from an evolutionary perspective, people settle down, populations skyrocket and societies start to build monumental architecture like the pyramids. At exactly the same time you have the growth of religion. My argument is that this is not a coincidence. Maybe what happened was, these human groups stumbled on the idea of a Big God, found they could solve co-operation dilemmas much better, and as a result they expanded. Other things then kicked in: Agriculture, specialization, more efficient armies, etc.

Or, is religion a behavior that stems from the same human traits that made tribes of hunter gatherers, and today explains things like nationalism? Humans grouping together for various reasons predates religion, and early adopters of agriculture like the Natufians do not fit the mold of a single, powerful deity. Polytheism remained dominant and was the typical form of religion during the bronze and iron ages. When a group stays put in one place, then natural disasters become more dangerous and disruptive to society. When a society realizes that things are outside of their control, they began to make systems to explain why, even if they don't really know. Now ethics and morality are evolving as well beyond the simple conflict resolution within small groups. Then you have societies developing concurrently, with different systems to explain the world, and surprise surprise, religion and war co-evolve. No longer are tribes fighting for resources, they're fighting to monopolize their version of truth in explaining the universe around them.

I mean obviously monotheistic religion was and still is important, but I don't think it's anything more than one stepping stone along the evolution of human consciousness and social behavior. To pick just one factor as the glue...seems like too much of a reach.

Your book makes a clear distinction between the tribal gods worshipped by most hunter-gatherer societies and “Big Gods”; omniscient all-powerful beings like the Judeo-Christian God. What’s the difference?
I’m arguing that some gods are more effective than other gods in creating civilization. Limited gods [tribal gods] know very little about what people do, they might demand sacrifices, maybe not; these gods are not going to build large-scale societies. The big, omniscient, all-powerful, morally-demanding gods, they’re the ones that are going to do the job. If you just count the number of supernatural beliefs people have in the world, there are thousands of them. Yet, the vast majority of human beings are devoted to Big Gods; probably more than 80%. So, how do you get from tribal gods to the vast majority of human beings worshipping big gods? There has to be an explanation.

Were the Romans-a society with multiple powerful deities- not a large society? Building a large empire with roads and infrastructure projects like the aqueducts?

This thesis of Ara's is pretty weak.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Widespread monotheism's a relatively recent development and long post-dates many major civilizations. Something like religion may indeed be essential to building them, some form of social control and group identification is necessary, but I'm a little dubious of the One Big God hypothesis.
 

Goober

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Interesting find goober

Thank you - It would /could be an interesting read.

Were the Romans-a society with multiple powerful deities- not a large society? Building a large empire with roads and infrastructure projects like the aqueducts?

This thesis of Ara's is pretty weak.
Yes the Romans were- Divide and conquer - When they conquered they also absorbed and accepted that Religious belief(s) as part of the Empire.

Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When Roman Emperor Constantine the Great (reigned 306–337) ruled Rome, Christianity became the dominant religion of the Roman Empire. Historians remain uncertain about Constantine's reasons for favoring Christianity, and theologians and historians have argued about which form of Christianity he subscribed to. Although Constantine had been exposed to Christianity by his mother Helena, there is no consensus among scholars as to whether he adopted his mother's Christianity in his youth, or gradually over the course of his life,[1] and he did not receive baptism until shortly before his death.[2][3]

From the article. He asks questions as well as stating this could be the main possibility.

In only a few thousands years
, which is nothing from an evolutionary perspective, people settle down, populations skyrocket and societies start to build monumental architecture like the pyramids. At exactly the same time you have the growth of religion. My argument is that this is not a coincidence. Maybe what happened was, these human groups stumbled on the idea of a Big God, found they could solve co-operation dilemmas much better, and as a result they expanded. Other things then kicked in: Agriculture, specialization, more efficient armies, etc.

Yet, the vast majority of human beings are devoted to Big Gods; probably more than 80%. So, how do you get from tribal gods to the vast majority of human beings worshipping big gods? There has to be an explanation.


The backbone of the book is looking at that question:
How did these ideas come about? Are we naturally endowed with these ideas? Did we invent them? It’s possible religious visionaries thought of them, were charismatic, and spread the idea. Or the idea was spread by conquest. But it’s not an intentional process, necessarily. There wasn’t a committee of Machiavellian priests who sat down and said, “Let’s think of an idea that would really make people co-operate
 

Sal

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Hell what do I know...I am frankly shocked out of my mind that I am no longer Christian, no longer believe all of the dogma pounded into me by the Catholic church but yet still find value in that same church because it led me to find my own personal truth.

It's an enigma.
 

Goober

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Hell what do I know...I am frankly shocked out of my mind that I am no longer Christian, no longer believe all of the dogma pounded into me by the Catholic church but yet still find value in that same church because it led me to find my own personal truth.

It's an enigma.
And that personal truth is?
Up to you if you wish to answer as I am in no way prying.
 

Sal

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And that personal truth is?
Up to you if you wish to answer as I am in no way prying.
well I think I have posted parts of it here and there...but in a nutshell: I do believe in a higher power but I do not believe that higher power intervenes. I believe over there is home, we choose to come here and choose our path before we arrive in order to give ourselves an experience of "best growth".

I believe in multiple lives. We are each on a different level according to how we have evolved. Our goal is to reach self actualization and become one with the light from which we came.

I believe we have spirit guides whom we can use to assist us. (Mine has never once been wrong when predicting the future) and it is confirmed when I tell my partner what i believe will happen down the road. (He is right winged Christian, but has come to accept my truth for how can one argue against what is)

I believe it is all just energy. What we put out there creates a direct flow back. Thus I try to do the best I can with everything and for everyone on my path because everything serves a purpose and will help me to grow and understand myself better and thus move forward.

I am also open to the possibility that it will end with death because a belief is not truth only a belief.

And the most controversial part of my belief is, we can never judge another no matter how heinous or repulsive their behaviour because on the other side we will judge ourselves. There is only closer to the light (higher power) and further from the light depending upon our evolution and level. The further we are from the light, the longer the path to where we strive to go.

It is far more complex than that...but that's kinda it. :D
 

Dexter Sinister

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In only a few thousands years, which is nothing from an evolutionary perspective, people settle down, populations skyrocket and societies start to build monumental architecture like the pyramids. At exactly the same time you have the growth of religion. My argument is that this is not a coincidence. Maybe what happened was, these human groups stumbled on the idea of a Big God, found they could solve co-operation dilemmas much better, and as a result they expanded. Other things then kicked in: Agriculture, specialization, more efficient armies, etc.
In biological evolution yes, a few thousand years is nothing, but in terms of cultural evolution it's a long time, empires and dynasties have risen and fallen on shorter time scales than that. If that paragraph represents the core of the argument, I'd say it needs a little rethinking. For instance, he's got people settling down, populations growing, and then other things like agriculture and specialization kicking in. I think the consensus in anthropology and archeology would be the other way around, that agriculture was invented first and enabled the other things. I haven't read the book, and I'd like to see a little more thorough review of it than a newspaper article, by somebody in the field who knows more about these things than a reporter, but from the bits you've cited I'm inclined to think this guy's looking for a big mystery where there isn't one, I'm not so far very impressed by this thesis.
 

Goober

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In biological evolution yes, a few thousand years is nothing, but in terms of cultural evolution it's a long time, empires and dynasties have risen and fallen on shorter time scales than that. If that paragraph represents the core of the argument, I'd say it needs a little rethinking. For instance, he's got people settling down, populations growing, and then other things like agriculture and specialization kicking in. I think the consensus in anthropology and archeology would be the other way around, that agriculture was invented first and enabled the other things. I haven't read the book, and I'd like to see a little more thorough review of it than a newspaper article, by somebody in the field who knows more about these things than a reporter, but from the bits you've cited I'm inclined to think this guy's looking for a big mystery where there isn't one, I'm not so far very impressed by this thesis.

What i find is that he is asking questions. Not having a closed mind. Where and how the linkage is would be an interesting question to answer.
 

55Mercury

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linkage? we don't need no stinkin linkage! lol

I think all this pondering over the origin of man's first concept of the power which manifested origination is a bit like chasing your tail. even more confounding to this dilemma is the stark realization that we have no tail!

jus_sayin
 

Dexter Sinister

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What i find is that he is asking questions. Not having a closed mind. Where and how the linkage is would be an interesting question to answer.
My reading over the years suggests to me that he's speculating about questions other people already have better answers for. He's a psychologist, how civilizations are born and grow and die is not his area of professional expertise. It also seems to me that the idea that only the biggest god builds a civilization is patently false. Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Greeks, Romans, built pretty sophisticated civilizations without a dominating deity in their mythos, they had pantheons of competing deities that were petty, mean, selfish, uncaring, vicious, vindictive, and promiscuous. Pretty much like the god of the Old Testament except for that last one.
 

Goober

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The only real god, though, is the Christian god.

And that is why we have religious killings and strife to this day and well into the future.

My reading over the years suggests to me that he's speculating about questions other people already have better answers for. He's a psychologist, how civilizations are born and grow and die is not his area of professional expertise. It also seems to me that the idea that only the biggest god builds a civilization is patently false. Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Greeks, Romans, built pretty sophisticated civilizations without a dominating deity in their mythos, they had pantheons of competing deities that were petty, mean, selfish, uncaring, vicious, vindictive, and promiscuous. Pretty much like the god of the Old Testament except for that last one.

I think the point he is making is how it was used. Farming, writing etc came before Major religions, but they did expand from that point forwardor disappear. When people start to live together then a system to control, direct etc is needed.

History of agriculture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agriculture involving domestication of plants and animals was developed at least 10,000 years ago, although even earlier people began altering plant and animal communities for their own benefit through other means such as fire-stick farming.[1][2] Agriculture has undergone significant developments since the time of the earliest cultivation. The Fertile Crescent of Western Asia, Egypt, and India were sites of the earliest planned sowing and harvesting of plants that had previously been gathered in the wild.

Evolutionary origin of religions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Organized religion traces its roots to the neolithic revolution that began 11,000 years ago in the Near East but may have occurred independently in several other locations around the world. The invention of agriculture transformed many human societies from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to a sedentary lifestyle. The consequences of the neolithic revolution included a population explosion and an acceleration in the pace of technological development. The transition from foraging bands to states and empires precipitated more specialized and developed forms of religion that reflected the new social and political environment. While bands and small tribes possess supernatural beliefs, these beliefs do not serve to justify a central authority, justify transfer of wealth or maintain peace between unrelated individuals. Organized religion emerged as a means of providing social and economic stability through the following ways:
• Justifying the central authority, which in turn possessed the right to collect taxes in return for providing social and security services.
• Bands and tribes consist of small number of related individuals. However, states and nations are composed of many thousands of unrelated individuals. Jared Diamond argues that organized religion served to provide a bond between unrelated individuals who would otherwise be more prone to enmity. He argues that the leading cause of death among hunter-gatherer societies is murder.[38]
• Religions that revolved around moralizing gods may have facilitated the rise of large, cooperative groups of unrelated individuals.[39]
The states born out of the Neolithic revolution, such as those of Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, were theocracies with chiefs, kings and emperors playing dual roles of political and spiritual leaders.[13] Anthropologists have found that virtually all state societies and chiefdoms from around the world have been found to justify political power through divine authority. This suggests that political authority co-opts collective religious belief to bolster itself.

Invention of writing[edit source | editbeta]
See also: History of writing
Following the neolithic revolution, the pace of technological development (cultural evolution) intensified due to the invention of writing 5000 years ago. Symbols that became words later on made effective communication of ideas possible. Printing invented only over a thousand years ago increased the speed of communication exponentially and became the main spring of cultural evolution. Writing is thought to have been first invented in either Sumeria or Ancient Egypt and was initially used for accounting. Soon after, writing was used to record myth. The first religious texts mark the beginning of religious history. The Pyramid Texts from ancient Egypt are one of the oldest known religious texts in the world, dating to between 2400–2300 BCE.[40][41][42] Writing played a major role in sustaining and spreading organized religion.
 

Blackleaf

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And that is why we have religious killings and strife to this day and well into the future.


And what all about all the killings and strife caused by anti-religion governments and organisations?

Funnily enough, that rarely gets mentioned.
 

Cliffy

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And what all about all the killings and strife caused by anti-religion governments and organisations?
Funnily enough, that rarely gets mentioned.
My god is bigger than your god and if you don't agree, he will make your pecker fall off. Ptttzzz!!!

Your god is only relevant to you because you choose to believe in it. Their god is only relevant to them. This pissing match between whose god is better or bigger is nothing but sand box bravado - much noise about nothing.
 

Blackleaf

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What about whoever- who cares- Intolerance runs rampant thru your beliefs.
Perhaps you should read that book again.

You obviously don't care about all those anti-religious groups who have murdered and maimed people. You only care when it's religious people who do it.

And could you explain what was intolerant in what I wrote? It's far less intolerant than all the anti-religious claptrap that we get.

My god is bigger than your god and if you don't agree, he will make your pecker fall off. Ptttzzz!!!

The Christian god isn't bigger than any other god. There are no other gods.

Their god is only relevant to them.

Their gods don't exist.
 

Goober

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You obviously don't care about all those anti-religious groups who have murdered and maimed people. You only care when it's religious people who do it.

And could you explain what was intolerant in what I wrote? It's far less intolerant than all the anti-religious claptrap that we get.



The Christian god isn't bigger than any other god. There are no other gods.



Their gods don't exist.

The only real god, though, is the Christian god.

Regarding the above- You only have faith on that. Did not Jesus teach tolerance.Where is yours?
Something you are lacking.
As to those that commit mass murder with or without a relgious belief, where have I ever supported that.
Back it up or pull it back.
 

Cliffy

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you obviously don't care about all those anti-religious groups who have murdered and maimed people. You only care when it's religious people who do it.

And could you explain what was intolerant in what i wrote? It's far less intolerant than all the anti-religious claptrap that we get.



The christian god isn't bigger than any other god. There are no other gods.



Their gods don't exist.

omg!